2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[AussieBuck]

I think people need to keep perspective, Giannis had a strong end to the Brooklyn series, but up until game 6, he wasn't looking great at all, and if not for injuries, the Bucks were losing that series in 5 in all likelihood. Even with the injuries, they barely won.

So I don't think Giannis goes from a great but flawed superstar to one of the GOAT big men because his team got bailed out by injuries to a better team. That would be the definition of winning bias.

Seems to have worked for Kawhi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Durant seems to have been permanently anointed best player in the league after taking Harrison Barnes' gig on a 73 team. These things happen.

[falcolombardi]

I think people need to keep perspective, Giannis had a strong end to the Brooklyn series, but up until game 6, he wasn't looking great at all, and if not for injuries, the Bucks were losing that series in 5 in all likelihood. Even with the injuries, they barely won.

So I don't think Giannis goes from a great but flawed superstar to one of the GOAT big men because his team got bailed out by injuries to a better team. That would be the definition of winning bias.

Seems to have worked for Kawhi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Durant seems to have been permanently anointed best player in the league after taking Harrison Barnes' gig on a 73 team. These things happen.

in all honesty kawhi portfolio since 2018 is probably better than durant

KD got two strong series against seventh seeds Celtics and clippers, half a good series vs houston. and a strong series vs bucks

kawhi sixers series beats any of those, he scored better thsn dursnt vs bucks for example

then he has performed against dallas twice, curry warriors, milwaukee, orlando

he played more and better series in 2019 playoffs than durant in 2019-2021 togwther....but doesnt have anyone saying he is "obviously the best player by far now" like dursnt gets. probably cause he lost his "invincibility" aura in 2020 where dursnt instead was injured or had the harden/irving injuries as mitigating factors

[MartinToVaught]

I think people need to keep perspective, Giannis had a strong end to the Brooklyn series, but up until game 6, he wasn't looking great at all, and if not for injuries, the Bucks were losing that series in 5 in all likelihood. Even with the injuries, they barely won.

So I don't think Giannis goes from a great but flawed superstar to one of the GOAT big men because his team got bailed out by injuries to a better team. That would be the definition of winning bias.

Seems to have worked for Kawhi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, if you ignore the rest of the playoffs and just focus on one series. And if you ignore his other FMVP on the Spurs. And the fact that two of his own prime playoff runs have been ruined by serious injuries.

For the record, the idea that Giannis has been "bailed out by injuries" is also nonsense. DiVincenzo has been out for most of the playoffs, and Giannis himself missed games with a hyperextended knee. The only team that's been bailed out by injuries this year is the Suns. They've been the luckiest team health-wise all season and would have lost in the first round without opponents' injuries.

[Texas Chuck]

The Suns were the 2 seed. To suggest they don't belong in the Finals except because of injury luck is silly. And every year key players are hurt. That's just part of the deal.

Some of ya'll don't want the games played. Just go put Brooklyn and the Lakers in the Finals because they have the big stars. And then if they aren't there dismiss everything else. I hate that idea. That's not how sports are supposed to work.

[Dutchball97]

With the Lakers I said it at the start of the season how getting Trez and Schröder would be a downgrade from Dwight and Rondo. Both Trez and Schröder have strong value in the regular season, while they crumble in the play-offs, Dwight and Rondo on the other hand weren't super important in the regular season but stepped up big in the post-season. Even with a healthy LeBron and AD I don't think they would've beaten the Suns. Even more so considering how CP3 also missed time.

The Nuggets are hard to pinpoint as they missed pretty much their entire backcourt but would Murray, Barton and Dozier really have been able to turn this from a Suns sweep to a Nuggets win? I don't think so.

The Clippers with a healthy Kawhi playing at the level he did (30.6 PER, .277 WS/48 and 10.7 BPM over an 11 game sample size is pretty scary) would probably be favored but even then I'd expect it to be a closely contested series with both teams being clear contenders.

[MartinToVaught]

The Suns were the 2 seed. To suggest they don't belong in the Finals except because of injury luck is silly. And every year key players are hurt. That's just part of the deal.

Some of ya'll don't want the games played. Just go put Brooklyn and the Lakers in the Finals because they have the big stars. And then if they aren't there dismiss everything else. I hate that idea. That's not how sports are supposed to work.

Writing it all off as "every year key players are hurt" is pretty reductive, IMO. It's rare to see one team benefit this much, this consistently throughout a postseason from other teams' injuries.

No AD. No Murray or Dozier. No Kawhi or Ibaka, then Zubac went down too during the series. At some point, it's irrational not to acknowledge that the Suns had a very easy ride through the playoffs thanks to other teams' injuries. The wins still count, obviously, nobody's going to vacate them, but context matters. And if people are going to discredit Giannis somehow for "getting bailed out by injuries," it's only fair to point out how much luckier his opponent was.

[MartinToVaught]

The Clippers with a healthy Kawhi playing at the level he did (30.6 PER, .277 WS/48 and 10.7 BPM over an 11 game sample size is pretty scary) would probably be favored but even then I'd expect it to be a closely contested series with both teams being clear contenders.

The WCF went 6 games despite Kawhi and Ibaka missing the entire series, Zubac missing multiple games, and Morris limping through most of the series. When it was that hard for the Suns to put away the Clippers' depleted MASH unit, I don't see how they'd even be competitive against a healthy Kawhi.

[parsnips33]

I swear there's a 20-1 ratio of people arguing Durant is overrated vs anybody claiming he's the best player in the league. I don't think the latter has even been a particularly widespread opinion since like 2014

[Texas Chuck]

I swear there's a 20-1 ratio of people arguing Durant is overrated vs anybody claiming he's the best player in the league. I don't think the latter has even been a particularly widespread opinion since like 2014

I don't believe there was ever a time when I thought KD was clearly the best player in the league. I do remember a period of time where he was defaulted as the 2nd best guy to Lebron and I thought even some of that was overblown. Great player obviously, but I too think that's not really a narrative outside of the usual overreaction stuff right after a big playoff game or something.

But we see that with everyone. Remember this thread here going crazy about DeAndre Ayton a few weeks ago? Life not quite as easy against the Bucks size and so naturally all that hype has disappeared. There is always going to be some prisoner of the moment stuff.

[RSCD3_]

FWIW shotquality.com actually showed the Lakers lost two games (game 1 and game 6) they should have won if both teams made the shots they took at seasonal averages despite the injuries. In fact when you look at the suns they are 11-10 in projected wins and losses

2-4 vs the lakers
3-1 vs the nuggets
4-2 vs the clippers
2-3 vs Bucks

They’ve certainly earned their place but they’ve definitely benefited the most from hot shooting, the bucks meanwhile are 15-7 but should be 17-5 if they shot up to par

[parsnips33]

Again I'll ask, does anybody think a healthy Nuggets team would've beat the Suns? I'm not sure how much Murray is helping their defense against Book and CP

[therealbig3]

It’s not that I’m crying foul that the Bucks beat an injured Nets team or anything, that’s who was in front of them, they can only play who’s out there.

It’s just when it comes to these legacy discussions with Giannis…he got outplayed by Durant in that series, and that series was on its way to being a laugher until another injury to a key Brooklyn player struck.

So I’m just saying, let’s cool it with these hot takes either way with regards to Giannis. He’s not a bum, but he’s also not the GOAT. There’s so much context that needs to be considered here.

[PaulieWal]

There's nothing that I dislike more than NBA ref conspiracies, especially after being on RGM for 8 years and every single playoff game thread is ruined by fans crying about refs (and I am not exaggerating if you don't believe me). For Chris Paul to come out and whine about Scott Foster, I hope he loses tonight by 40 and then cries about losing because of Foster. Would be a fitting end to a career full of playoff chokes and collapses.

[MartinToVaught]

There's nothing that I dislike more than NBA ref conspiracies, especially after being on RGM for 8 years and every single playoff game thread is ruined by fans crying about refs (and I am not exaggerating if you don't believe me). For Chris Paul to come out and whine about Scott Foster, I hope he loses tonight by 40 and then cries about losing because of Foster. Would be a fitting end to a career full of playoff chokes and collapses.

CP3, one of the biggest floppers and dirtiest players in recent memory, should never ever in a million years cry about refs. Maybe some refs just don't like him because he makes their job harder than it needs to be with his antics and then has the nerve to spend all game whining to them anyway.

[falcolombardi]

It’s not that I’m crying foul that the Bucks beat an injured Nets team or anything, that’s who was in front of them, they can only play who’s out there.

It’s just when it comes to these legacy discussions with Giannis…he got outplayed by Durant in that series, and that series was on its way to being a laugher until another injury to a key Brooklyn player struck.

So I’m just saying, let’s cool it with these hot takes either way with regards to Giannis. He’s not a bum, but he’s also not the GOAT. There’s so much context that needs to be considered here.

i am not so sure, bucks were winning game 4 before irving injury.

i am also not sure durant was better than giannis either

[Clyde Frazier]

I think people need to keep perspective, Giannis had a strong end to the Brooklyn series, but up until game 6, he wasn't looking great at all, and if not for injuries, the Bucks were losing that series in 5 in all likelihood. Even with the injuries, they barely won.

So I don't think Giannis goes from a great but flawed superstar to one of the GOAT big men because his team got bailed out by injuries to a better team. That would be the definition of winning bias.

Seems to have worked for Kawhi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, if you ignore the rest of the playoffs and just focus on one series. And if you ignore his other FMVP on the Spurs. And the fact that two of his own prime playoff runs have been ruined by serious injuries.

For the record, the idea that Giannis has been "bailed out by injuries" is also nonsense. DiVincenzo has been out for most of the playoffs, and Giannis himself missed games with a hyperextended knee. The only team that's been bailed out by injuries this year is the Suns. They've been the luckiest team health-wise all season and would have lost in the first round without opponents' injuries.

To be clear, my post wasn't hating on kawhi.

The person I was responding to was only focusing on one series. Kawhi's finals MVP with the spurs was not equivalent to his dominant title run with the raps. He was one crucial piece of a great team. If the warriors were healthy the likelihood of the raps winning the title was extremely low. Kawhi still gets credit for his performance because he was dominant, just as Giannis will if they win the title.

Kawhi's durability issues *is* a legitimate knock on him, though. Although that has nothing to do with my post. As for the suns, they've had injury luck but there's no guarantee they lose to the lakers in the first round. They're a championship level team in their own right.

[Mos_Heat]

I think people need to keep perspective, Giannis had a strong end to the Brooklyn series, but up until game 6, he wasn't looking great at all, and if not for injuries, the Bucks were losing that series in 5 in all likelihood. Even with the injuries, they barely won.

So I don't think Giannis goes from a great but flawed superstar to one of the GOAT big men because his team got bailed out by injuries to a better team. That would be the definition of winning bias.

Seems to have worked for Kawhi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Durant seems to have been permanently anointed best player in the league after taking Harrison Barnes' gig on a 73 team. These things happen.

By who though? Rich Kleiman, Bill Simmons and who else?

[Clyde Frazier]

Again I'll ask, does anybody think a healthy Nuggets team would've beat the Suns? I'm not sure how much Murray is helping their defense against Book and CP

I wouldn't have been surprised at all if the Nuggets were at full strength and took the suns down. But that has more to do with my confidence in Jokic than the threat of the suns. Gordon specifically falling back into his role playing off jokic would be huge. The suns have proven to be very dangerous when they're at their best though.

[falcolombardi]

Seems to have worked for Kawhi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Durant seems to have been permanently anointed best player in the league after taking Harrison Barnes' gig on a 73 team. These things happen.

By who though? Rich Kleiman, Bill Simmons and who else?

it depends where you look i guess,

when i still went to basketball reddit lots and lots of people have durant as default best player since the warriors days cause he is the "more unstopable"

oddly enough i see more peopke who think he is the best player over the last 2 years where he has barely played than in the warriors days before injury

[Clyde Frazier]

American basketball players are incredibly xenophobic

Sure seems like it. It's really ugly.

It would be one thing if Giannis were an a-hole, but he ain't.

As I say this, I do think players are in general more likely to cheer on Luka. I think that speaks to players judging players based on who they grew up worshipping. If the question is "Which player seems most like Jordan?", it's no wonder that the players underrate Giannis.

Yeah so even if we set aside the xenophobia, this push for Middleton for finals MVP by players and fans is under the premise of this absurd notion that Giannis is "unskilled." It seems shooting is the only skill an NBA player possesses, so Giannis' rare ball handling, passing and defense at his size don't count. Giannis is also apparently rendered useless at the end of games because Middleton has hit some clutch shots in the playoffs. Of course that's ignoring two game sealing plays in the finals by Giannis.

Do the vast majority of fans believe this? I don't think so, but it's pretty sad seeing players themselves pushing this narrative which only gives fans an excuse to jump onboard. And like you said, Giannis is a good guy. There's no reason to discount his greatness like that.

[I think I'm harping on this as much as I am because I'm a middleton fan and he went underrated for so long. This praise he's getting doesn't feel genuine, more so just an effort to slight Giannis.]