James Harden is a superstar

[Mavericksfan]

To be fair Portland is above average at best

[GAME TIME]

Now 3 miserable games for Harden against contending teams. He's only proven to be successful against mediocre or poor teams.

Some pegged him as the guy who will lead the league in scoring

[East_Coast]

Harden is in over his head in trying to be a #1 option. It couldn't be more obvious, and its not likely to change.

He plays undisciplined ball, and thrives in chaos but is lost when good defenders are focused on stopping him -- especially in the set half-court defense.

McHale has to rein him into the offense as an important piece, but not someone who can freelance. Harden simply isn't capable of carrying a team that way. He's been exposed as a very good sixth man, but not much more.

Until they can bring in a solid post player that Harden can work with, Houston will regret paying him all that money. At this point, it certainly appears that both he and Lin are overpaid.

[Dr Positivity]

Obviously there's going to be an adjustment period to the new defensive attention

OT, and I'm not using this as an excuse for Harden's last 3 games, but McHale screams AWFUL coach. He's riding his starters 40 minutes a game, isn't giving any minutes to rookies despite having one of the worst benches in the league, and the team has no offensive system, they just give it to Harden to pound pick and rolls all game. McHale is coaching like he GMed

[The Infamous1]

It's only so long fake superstars can pretend

[Regulio]

5 TOs per game... as a SG
sure it's early, but by definition superstar is at least a top10 player in the league, and this beard-man is nowhere near.

[tsherkin]

He plays undisciplined ball, and thrives in chaos but is lost when good defenders are focused on stopping him

This isn't correct; Harden plays a fairly disciplined brand of basketball, that's what made him successful.

The problem is that Houston is disconnected and awful as a whole right now.

Cast your eyes to the starting unit around Harden.

This team is the 5th-worst offense in the league right now. Harden is showing that he can still capably get to the line, and that he can still hit FTAs but the problem is that he's trying to boot strap a terrible offense and it's affecting him. Now, of all people, I think we realize by now that I'm not here as a Harden apologist because I never really believed he was a superstar to begin with, but let's examine this situation with some intellectual honesty, shall we?

Jeremy Lin is averaging ~ 13/5/6 on 49.6% TS, shooting 38.3% FG, 29.4% 3P and posting a 19.2% TOV. He has been putrid as a scoring threat so far. He's been losing the ball all over the place, bricking shots and, despite the fact that he's playing well on D away from the ball, that right there means there's no capable second scoring threat on this team at the moment. Chandler Parsons has likewise sucked (~ 11 ppg on 49.9% TS). Asik has been terrible (7.2 ppg on 43.0% TS). Patterson's managing 11.8 ppg on 47.0% TS. Their big sub off of the bench, Delfino, is managing 10.2 ppg on 54.7% TS because he's basically doing nothing but bombing 3s (6.6 3PA/g at 36.4%) but he's also the only player on the team shooting over 30.8% from downtown (and one of only two players shooting 30%+ from 3).

So right off of the bat, you've got a legion of inefficient, useless players. Lin, Delfino and Patterson are all rocking a TOV% of 18%+; Houston's giving up the ball on a regular basis under anything resembling defensive pressure, and they are shooting 40.7% FG as a team (3rd worst in the league) and 28.0% from 3, worst in the league.

No spacing, turnover problems, no second scorer worth a damn... what is it that people actually EXPECT Harden to do? The sane among us knew that he wasn't Jordan, but even five games is a tiny sample, right? Yeah, he's had three bad games and yes, they've come against good defensive teams. Of course, with a roster this wretched, is that truly all that surprising?

C'mon, folks... find the grey. Harden isn't some all-time epic first-option scorer, we know this, but if he had any semblance of floor balance or any competitive advantage on offense arranged around him, I think this would look a little different. The Rockets are an absolutely terrible, terrible offensive team right now after giving up on Scola and Martin, right, so there's only so much one guy can do.

[East_Coast]

This isn't correct; Harden plays a fairly disciplined brand of basketball, that's what made him successful.

I concur with 99% of your post, but on this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that Harden plays disciplined at all. When I think of a disciplined player, I think of signature 'go-to' moves, I think of specific places on the floor that he owns and can consistently score from.

Harden's MO is to thrive in helter-skelter situations. He's at his best on the break when the defense hasn't had a chance to organize itself. Once the game slows down to the half-court, he isn't nearly as effective against set defenses. He just makes stuff up as the game goes on, rather than taking a systematic approach to breaking the other team down.

I do fault Harden for this. I understand the dreadfulness of the rest of the team's scoring options, but he is the best player and supposed to be the rock. Its up to him to establish consistency himself, so that his teammates can feed off of that. I just don't think he's disciplined enough to be capable of achieving this.

For example, look at what LeBron did for the Cavs. Not that he and Harden are even near the same level of player, but LBJ took a really sad group all the way to the best record in the league, and once to the Finals. That's what the best player on any team is supposed to do -- elevate everyone else, not fall down to the others' level.

Houston is indeed a mess. I can just imagine, though, what absolute disaster it would have been had the Harden trade not occurred. There were actually posters talking about Lin leading the team to the playoffs.

[tsherkin]

I concur with 99% of your post, but on this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that Harden plays disciplined at all. When I think of a disciplined player, I think of signature 'go-to' moves, I think of specific places on the floor that he owns and can consistently score from.

"Consistently score" has nothing to do with discipline. Now you're getting into a mixture of what the defense is doing, the threat of his other teammates and so forth. Also, 5 games isn't long enough to establish what he can and cannot do consistently, especially given the fact that he looked awesome for 2 games and it's only the last couple of games where teams have been able to exploit his brutally unskilled and useless teammates.

Harden's MO is to thrive in helter-skelter situations. He's at his best on the break when the defense hasn't had a chance to organize itself.

In Houston, this is to some extent true... but here's the question that'll flip you:

Where's his PnR big?

Harden's OKC MO was to spam pick-and-rolls and create out of that, and he doesn't have a particularly effective PnR partner in Houston, so his greatest and favorite skill isn't being utilized as much or as effectively.

Once the game slows down to the half-court, he isn't nearly as effective against set defenses.

See above, because this has been wrong since day one... when the opportunity for him to run his favorite play is there.

but he is the best player and supposed to be the rock. Its up to him to establish consistency himself, so that his teammates can feed off of that. I just don't think he's disciplined enough to be capable of achieving this.

This is nonsense. Houston is playing below an NBDL level at this stage because of how talent-poor they are at the moment, and that is not going to make it possible for a star player to do much of anything with them. Just for reference, remember that Jordan led his terrible rookie Bulls to a sub-.500 record (38 wins) and only made the playoffs because of the weakness of the EC. They were 11th of 23 teams in the league on offense, and Jordan was a transcendent talent who had two or three guys playing vastly superior to anything currently on the Rockets.

Think about that, mull that over. Orlando Woolridge rocked 23 ppg on over 60% TS that year in 77 games while Jordan rocked 28 ppg on 59% TS and that team was still directly in the middle of the pack on offense. Harden's working with basically a Div II team here, so I'm not sure what you are expecting. His next best player is Jeremy Lin, who is playing terrible, terrible basketball. Is it any small wonder that the team has struggled against any kind of quality, focused defensive pressure? They don't have to guard ANYONE on that team besides Harden and close-outs on Delfino at the 3pt line.

For example, look at what LeBron did for the Cavs. Not that he and Harden are even near the same level of player, but LBJ took a really sad group all the way to the best record in the league, and once to the Finals.

You're being disingenuous, though. In 2007, he had Big Z, Gooden, Pavlovic, Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall connecting on a high-percentage from 3 and strong defensive roleplayers like Varejao. And Larry Hughes wasn't great, but he was better than Lin.

In 2009, when they won 66 games, he had Mo Williams (leagues better than Lin), Big Z, Varejao, Delonte West, Daniel Gibson, Wally Z, Joe Smith and hell, even Ben Wallace contributed. Lest you forget, the 09 Cavs were 2nd in the league in 3p%.

The Rockets are dead-last at the moment.

Lebron didn't have a second star, but he had very good defensive roleplayers and a swath of spot-up 3pt shooters who could make defenses pay when he penetrated, AND he had Mo Williams, who was a capable scoring threat far better than anything else currently on the Rockets. So it's a totally unfair and ridiculous point of comparison to look at Lebron's Cavs versus these Rockets. A better comparison would be the 06 Lakers, but even THEY had better roster talent than these Rockets.

[nurseryc]

I concur with 99% of your post, but on this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that Harden plays disciplined at all. When I think of a disciplined player, I think of signature 'go-to' moves, I think of specific places on the floor that he owns and can consistently score from.

"Consistently score" has nothing to do with discipline. Now you're getting into a mixture of what the defense is doing, the threat of his other teammates and so forth. Also, 5 games isn't long enough to establish what he can and cannot do consistently, especially given the fact that he looked awesome for 2 games and it's only the last couple of games where teams have been able to exploit his brutally unskilled and useless teammates.

Harden's MO is to thrive in helter-skelter situations. He's at his best on the break when the defense hasn't had a chance to organize itself.

In Houston, this is to some extent true... but here's the question that'll flip you:

Where's his PnR big?

Harden's OKC MO was to spam pick-and-rolls and create out of that, and he doesn't have a particularly effective PnR partner in Houston, so his greatest and favorite skill isn't being utilized as much or as effectively.

Once the game slows down to the half-court, he isn't nearly as effective against set defenses.

See above, because this has been wrong since day one... when the opportunity for him to run his favorite play is there.

but he is the best player and supposed to be the rock. Its up to him to establish consistency himself, so that his teammates can feed off of that. I just don't think he's disciplined enough to be capable of achieving this.

This is nonsense. Houston is playing below an NBDL level at this stage because of how talent-poor they are at the moment, and that is not going to make it possible for a star player to do much of anything with them. Just for reference, remember that Jordan led his terrible rookie Bulls to a sub-.500 record (38 wins) and only made the playoffs because of the weakness of the EC. They were 11th of 23 teams in the league on offense, and Jordan was a transcendent talent who had two or three guys playing vastly superior to anything currently on the Rockets.

Think about that, mull that over. Orlando Woolridge rocked 23 ppg on over 60% TS that year in 77 games while Jordan rocked 28 ppg on 59% TS and that team was still directly in the middle of the pack on offense. Harden's working with basically a Div II team here, so I'm not sure what you are expecting. His next best player is Jeremy Lin, who is playing terrible, terrible basketball. Is it any small wonder that the team has struggled against any kind of quality, focused defensive pressure? They don't have to guard ANYONE on that team besides Harden and close-outs on Delfino at the 3pt line.

For example, look at what LeBron did for the Cavs. Not that he and Harden are even near the same level of player, but LBJ took a really sad group all the way to the best record in the league, and once to the Finals.

You're being disingenuous, though. In 2007, he had Big Z, Gooden, Pavlovic, Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall connecting on a high-percentage from 3 and strong defensive roleplayers like Varejao. And Larry Hughes wasn't great, but he was better than Lin.

In 2009, when they won 66 games, he had Mo Williams (leagues better than Lin), Big Z, Varejao, Delonte West, Daniel Gibson, Wally Z, Joe Smith and hell, even Ben Wallace contributed. Lest you forget, the 09 Cavs were 2nd in the league in 3p%.

The Rockets are dead-last at the moment.

Lebron didn't have a second star, but he had very good defensive roleplayers and a swath of spot-up 3pt shooters who could make defenses pay when he penetrated, AND he had Mo Williams, who was a capable scoring threat far better than anything else currently on the Rockets. So it's a totally unfair and ridiculous point of comparison to look at Lebron's Cavs versus these Rockets. A better comparison would be the 06 Lakers, but even THEY had better roster talent than these Rockets.

Tend to agree with the above post, how anyone can argue with these points is quite bewildering?

[East_Coast]

"Consistently score" has nothing to do with discipline.

Perhaps I should have said, "consistently places himself in a position to score" rather than "consistently score". It was what I meant, anyway. The thought is the same, though, and it all goes back to being a disciplined player. Like I said, we can agree to disagree on this point.

As far as the low number of games that have been played so far, I'm not just looking at this season but what he did with OKC. He's playing exactly the same as he did there. When the trade happened, I was one of the few posters pumping the brakes on expectations on what he could do as a #1 option. I felt then, as I do now, that he's an extremely gifted sixth man, but not a legit #1.

In Houston, this is to some extent true... but here's the question that'll flip you:

Where's his PnR big?

Harden's OKC MO was to spam pick-and-rolls and create out of that, and he doesn't have a particularly effective PnR partner in Houston, so his greatest and favorite skill isn't being utilized as much or as effectively.

Ok, so the pieces aren't as good in Houston as in OKC. That's no excuse to shoot 22% in a game if you're a legit #1 option. You're giving him too many outs, imo.

This is nonsense. Houston is playing below an NBDL level at this stage because of how talent-poor they are at the moment, and that is not going to make it possible for a star player to do much of anything with them. ... They don't have to guard ANYONE on that team besides Harden and close-outs on Delfino at the 3pt line.

Seriously, c'mon with this. There aren't any very good players on the squad, but Delfino has popped up from time to time to hit key shots and keep them in games, Marcus Morris had had his moments, Patrick Patterson as well, and Chandler Parsons has been effective at times from downtown.

Jordan, even when he didn't have the necessary pieces, established a level of excellence for the others to follow. No matter what the circumstances, any true #1 option can at least do that.

You're being disingenuous, though. In 2007, he had Big Z, Gooden, Pavlovic, Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall connecting on a high-percentage from 3 and strong defensive roleplayers like Varejao.

Yes, LBJ had a better cast of characters, but they weren't great. The point that I'm making is that no matter what you have to work with, as a #1 option you have to raise the level of those around you. The Cavs had a higher ceiling than the current Rockets, but it would be nice to see some elevation impetus from Harden.

The season is young, yes. So we'll see what happens from here. Harden absolutely cannot have these horrendous, clueless 20% shooting games, though. Can't happen. If he's gonna be the Big Dog, he has to figure out how to get the best out of his talent-challenged teammates. That's part of the reason he's getting the big bucks.

[tsherkin]

[quote="East_Coast"Perhaps I should have said, "consistently places himself in a position to score" rather than "consistently score". It was what I meant, anyway. The thought is the same, though, and it all goes back to being a disciplined player. Like I said, we can agree to disagree on this point.
[/quote]

Mmmm. I think you're ignoring way too much context to make this judgement, especially after only 5 games.

As far as the low number of games that have been played so far, I'm not just looking at this season but what he did with OKC. He's playing exactly the same as he did there.

False. He's not playing with screens nearly as much as he did in OKC.

Ok, so the pieces aren't as good in Houston as in OKC. That's no excuse to shoot 22% in a game if you're a legit #1 option. You're giving him too many outs, imo.

Really?

Because MJ, Kobe, LBJ, etc, they never had a really bad night, or even a run of them? Especially on awful teams?

Seriously, c'mon with this. There aren't any very good players on the squad, but Delfino has popped up from time to time to hit key shots and keep them in games, Marcus Morris had had his moments, Patrick Patterson as well, and Chandler Parsons has been effective at times from downtown.

Re-read my post. Momentary efficacy pales and withers in the face of consistent incompetence.

Yes, LBJ had a better cast of characters, but they weren't great. The point that I'm making is that no matter what you have to work with, as a #1 option you have to raise the level of those around you.

Baloney. Harden can't make guys make shots and he can't help but be impacted by the guys around him. This is foolishness.

The season is young, yes. So we'll see what happens from here. Harden absolutely cannot have these horrendous, clueless 20% shooting games, though.

So, by definition, McGrady and Kobe werent/arent legitimate first options, then.

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[MisterWestside]

I'm still trying to figure out how some posters have managed to figure out Harden AFTER FIVE GAMES IN AN 82-GAME REGULAR SEASON.

You don't need to have any knowledge of confidence intervals and variance (especially as it relates to basketball) to say, "Guys, it's early."

[C-izMe]

I completely agree with you Tsherkin but the question at hand is whether or not Harden is a superstar. Many believe he is (nowhere to be found right now), some said they'll wait on that prediction (like you), some said no and that he's not a superstar level talent (me). I'm not using these games to say he can't be a superstar but to point out how obvious it is that he's not yet. This is a guy who can't score with a good perimeter defender guarding him.


And Patterson is his PNR big he's just in a slump right now.

[tsherkin]

I completely agree with you Tsherkin but the question at hand is whether or not Harden is a superstar. Many believe he is (nowhere to be found right now), some said they'll wait on that prediction (like you), some said no and that he's not a superstar level talent (me). I'm not using these games to say he can't be a superstar but to point out how obvious it is that he's not yet. This is a guy who can't score with a good perimeter defender guarding him.

And I'm telling you that it's too early to separate that ASSUMPTION from the significantly-raised difficulty of scoring with no offensive help... Especially over a 3-game sample.

And Patterson is his PNR big he's just in a slump right now.

Not relevant until he stops sucking.

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[Krodis]

The problem is the entire Rockets' team is in a slump. Harden is shooting below 30% from three. Of the rest of the players, only Delfino and Aldrich are above 50% TS% (Not counting Greg Smith, who was effective but only played one game). They're last in 3 Point %. I don't really expect any of this to continue, but for now it's certainly an issue. Harden will get back above 30%, Parsons, Patterson, and Lin will probably increase their efficiency, and with that, Harden will get more space to operate.

In the third quarter last night, the Grizzlies were basically hard trapping Harden every time once Lin left the game. Harden made the right pass, but from there you're just relying on your teammates to score, and the Rockets have not done that well so far. In fact, their only real saving grace offensively besides Harden is they're a great offensive rebounding team, largely because of Asik.


EDIT: And to be fair, 5 games in, he is still leading the league in scoring.

[East_Coast]

Baloney. Harden can't make guys make shots and he can't help but be impacted by the guys around him. This is foolishness.

So, to kind of wrap this up, you think that Harden has a built-in excuse of playing with lousy teammates. I say, if life gives you lemons, make some awesome lemonade.

By the way, I did some spot checking, and as far as I can ascertain Jordan never had a 20% shooting game. And he certainly never looked as lost and inept as Harden did last night.

The central question that remains to be answered is whether Harden qualifies as a superstar. Unsurprisingly, I say 'no'. I realize that its very early in the season, but for some things you can come to accurate snap judgments on -- as detailed in Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink".

Harden doesn't pass the eye-test for me. MJ, Kobe, McGrady, etc. did -- even if they had horrendous games, like MJ scoring 8 points vs. the Cavs back in 1986.

[MacGill]

I'm still trying to figure out how some posters have managed to figure out Harden AFTER FIVE GAMES IN AN 82-GAME REGULAR SEASON.

You don't need to have any knowledge of confidence intervals and variance (especially as it relates to basketball) to say, "Guys, it's early."

I think this is the post that explains it and something I mentioned several pages back. I mean people are saying Mike Brown got wronged by being fired after 5 games so how is it any different then the Harden situation??

The team certainly has to adjust as does Harden and he showed flashes of brillance and dismay. It is easy to look in hindsight what certain superstar have accomplished but you can bet that over 5 games into it they weren't annoiting Jordan the GOAT or anything.

Rate him on his performances as he plays but becoming a superstar even if he averaged 40/10/10 over these 5 games would be hard to proclaim he is. We know he is a good player but he needs to show a lot of consistency over a 82 game season plus PS to truly earn the title.

Even when T-Mac took off in Orlando, I knew he would do well but I had no idea that well. At the time and very early in, you'd be wondering if it was more a Linsanity moment the true potential because it was never achieved prior. And like Harden we have never seen him as the #1 option. Give it time.

[therealbig3]

Remember the 00-01 season, when McGrady blew up as a superstar? People should go back and check his first 5 games of that season...really similar to Harden, he blew up against two bad teams, and got owned by three good teams.

Bottom line: give it time, we have no idea how this is going to turn out. Making conclusions off 5 games just doesn't make sense.

[Bodhi]

It depends on what your definition of a superstar is, but I think it's pretty unfair to compare Harden to Kobe/MJ/LeBron. He doesn't have the athleticism to reach that level, but I think he could still be considered a superstar if he's a tier below the all time great talents