'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[lorak]

But the number of fouls was still there.

Its a matter of when and where.

You know FT/FGA is a 4factor and there is a reason why it is FT/FGA and not number of fouls, right?

And you know saying officiating is to blame would require fouls being called, right? Because refs aren't giving out FTs for non shooting fouls.

Fouls could be called without a reason or don't called when there is a reason. The fact remains - Thunder FT/FGA was MUCH better last two games and we have to think if home court is one of the reasons of that.

[bondom34]

You know FT/FGA is a 4factor and there is a reason why it is FT/FGA and not number of fouls, right?

And you know saying officiating is to blame would require fouls being called, right? Because refs aren't giving out FTs for non shooting fouls.

Fouls could be called without a reason or don't called when there is a reason. The fact remains - Thunder FT/FGA was MUCH better last two games and we have to think if home court is one of the reasons of that.

Oh, of course, couldn't be because maybe GSW is actually fouling in worse positions and at a higher rate.
Its gotta be rigged.

Both teams have shot near identical amounts within the paint. OKC always gets to the line, its in their style of play. They play more aggressive.

[Nbafanatic]

I simply don't knee-jerk enough to participate much more itt. I'm amazed at how quickly many of you totally change your opinions on players based on singular series, or sometimes just a game or two.

I don't know about others but I have been consistent in saying that missed time in the PS is a big deal for me. I said this the day after Curry got hurt. Him performing poorly in this series just makes it easier for me to not have him #1. Even if the Warriors were winning but he was playing exactly like this I wouldn't have him #1.

Being healthy in the PS matters and when you miss two rounds I can't have you #1. This doesn't even take into account that they would most likely lost in the 2nd round if CP/Blake were healthy. I don't think it's knee-jerk to not have Curry #1 anymore if someone considers being healthy important in the PS. This isn't unique to Steph either. Guys like CP/Wade and countless other stars lose points whenever they are not healthy in the PS.

I agree with that. And adding to it, the three guys I have ahead of Curry right now(Lebron, Durant and Westbrook), did great enough regular seasons to be considered real MVP candidates if Curry hadn't had such a killer regular season. Those three guys would be in the hunt against '97 Jordan and Malone or '05 Nash, for instance. And Curry was a very deserving unanimous MVP, but it would not be the case for sure if '13 Lebron, '91 Jordan or '00 Shaq were in the current league. So, those three guys still had Curry within striking distance when the regular season ended, the three are doing some great playoffs so far and Curry is having his worst career playoff season on half the games until here and being badly outplayed against a direct challenger on the head to head battle. He can still turn things around, but it's not looking likely right now.

[Dr Positivity]

Curry in the playoffs is still 24/5/5/.60 TS% (like 28/6/6 per 36 minutes) with his combination of defense and spacing, which is an MVP caliber player, and 14-15 Curry esque. I don’t think he’s looked right but 70-80% Curry is still elite. With that said the point of taking 2016 Curry over Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Kawhi despite his injury the first two rounds would be that getting a GOAT player later would be worth it, but if he's banged enough to be at least brought down to their level, I don't have much reason to vote him higher than #5 which is reasonable considering the next best handful of options are flawed in ways such as Paul's injury, Green not being a traditional boxscore stats friendly star and Klay not being as RPM/RAPM friendly of one, Lowry injury/playoff stats. Curry's playoff-only value has been about comparable to Lowry to me. Lowry on terrible shooting nights against Indiana was still a key contributor in other ways and > Curry not playing. But Curry has made up that value on him since he came back, and if we projected forward would continue to grow the gap

[Nbafanatic]

Curry in the playoffs is still 24/5/5/.60 TS% (like 28/6/6 per 36 minutes) with his combination of defense and spacing, which is an MVP caliber player, and 14-15 Curry esque. I don’t think he’s looked right but 70-80% Curry is still elite. With that said the point of taking 2016 Curry over Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Kawhi despite his injury the first two rounds would be that getting a GOAT player later would be worth it, but if he's banged enough to be at least brought down to their level, I don't have much reason to vote him higher than #5 which is reasonable considering the next best handful of options are flawed in ways such as Paul's injury, Green not being a traditional boxscore stats friendly star, and Klay not being as RPM/RAPM friendly one, Lowry injury/playoff stats

But current Curry is not on the same level as his last year version, no way. He played almost 40 minutes per game last year and was right phisically. 8 more minutes per game and in better condition makes a world of difference. Had Curry played so far in those 7 playoff games on par with his 14/15 self, I would still have him in the lead, if ever so slightly.

[Doctor MJ]

My issue with dropping Curry from #1 is an entire season’s worth of work. It wasn’t until the last couple games that he’s been disappointing. These are obviously the most important games of the year, but…

Dropping him out of #1 on what, 2 bad games? This still sounds outlandish to me. If you’re Golden State, I really feel Draymond Green completely disappearing is where the majority of the blame needs to go. That, and Donovan outcoaching Kerr. Do you really kick the guy out, the guy who’s been in his own tier for the entire year? It’s not too long ago that he pretty much crushed the Blazers off the bench.

Let’s say playoff games count for more. The last 2 games (and perhaps the elimination game) cannot make up for 80+ games of amazing work. They simply cannot. On top of this, these performances fall more under the “underwhelming” category than the “choke job” category, for me.

2 games? The regular season ended weeks ago and Curry hasn't been able to use the time since to add to his resume. I'm not saying you have to weight the playoffs vs the regular season in any given way, but it's pretty understandable to me those who Curry's lack of playoff accomplishment will be a sizable issue.

[Doctor MJ]

Oh, and there's no way Curry drops from 1. I do however feel better about Westbrook at 2, though he's been there all along. Agree with Chuck the kneejerking seems a bit much.

Really the only things changing right now are probably Lebron moving to 3, Kawhi dropping, and Durant being somewhere in the top 5 for sure over Paul. He was debatable there anyway. So I'm still at
Curry
Westbrook
Lebron
KD or Kawhi
Kawhi or KD

Speaking for me personally, I see plenty of room those still playing to surpass Curry in my POY but nothing is likely to make me doubt that Curry is an all-time great.

[PaulieWal]

Oh, and there's no way Curry drops from 1. I do however feel better about Westbrook at 2, though he's been there all along. Agree with Chuck the kneejerking seems a bit much.

Really the only things changing right now are probably Lebron moving to 3, Kawhi dropping, and Durant being somewhere in the top 5 for sure over Paul. He was debatable there anyway. So I'm still at
Curry
Westbrook
Lebron
KD or Kawhi
Kawhi or KD

Speaking for me personally, I see plenty of room those still playing to surpass Curry in my POY but nothing is likely to make me doubt that Curry is an all-time great.

I agree with this. I don't see him being #1 on my ballot but a guy who wins B2B MVPs is definitely an all-time great. Not even sure who would argue otherwise at this point.

[bondom34]

Oh, and there's no way Curry drops from 1. I do however feel better about Westbrook at 2, though he's been there all along. Agree with Chuck the kneejerking seems a bit much.

Really the only things changing right now are probably Lebron moving to 3, Kawhi dropping, and Durant being somewhere in the top 5 for sure over Paul. He was debatable there anyway. So I'm still at
Curry
Westbrook
Lebron
KD or Kawhi
Kawhi or KD

Speaking for me personally, I see plenty of room those still playing to surpass Curry in my POY but nothing is likely to make me doubt that Curry is an all-time great.

I agree with this. I don't see him being #1 on my ballot but a guy who wins B2B MVPs is definitely an all-time great. Not even sure who would argue otherwise at this point.

You guys are starting to talk me into it, but it may take a huge effort from 1 of the 3 remaining.

[PaulieWal]

Speaking for me personally, I see plenty of room those still playing to surpass Curry in my POY but nothing is likely to make me doubt that Curry is an all-time great.

I agree with this. I don't see him being #1 on my ballot but a guy who wins B2B MVPs is definitely an all-time great. Not even sure who would argue otherwise at this point.

You guys are starting to talk me into it, but it may take a huge effort from 1 of the 3 remaining.

Really depends on your criteria.

Let me ask you this, are you dropping CP because of his injury this year? I think most are and the same should be applied to Curry. Difference is that Curry had a GOAT level RS so he will still remain in my top 5 but for my POY is the culmination of the level of play for the entire RS + PS.

Missed time + under-performance makes it hard for me to have a guy as #1 when other guys were on the court giving their team a better chance to win. The level of play has been wildly inconsistent for Curry at this point even despite the relatively good looking box score numbers.

For me the two prime contenders for the 1 spot right now are Russ/Bron with KD a close 2nd (3rd). Only time will tell.

[Doctor MJ]

- I think POY voting should be done sometime long after playoffs will end, for example in October, because that would give us better perspective on what happened, that will alow us to avoid voting under emotions.

- Green is a disappointment, but his defense vs OKC is at the same level as Kawhi vs OKC (according to sportVU)

- Curry vs Thunder has more open 2s and way more open 3s than during regular season, but while he is making 2s at the same efficiency, his 3P% is down by 12 percentage points! (from 47,8 to 35,1). So I don't know if it's because defense on RW is so energy consuming or it is just small sample. But Warriors need him to hit these open threes.

- Thunder FT rate was amazing last two games. in regular season their FT/FGA was 0.228 and in G3 and G4 0.359 and 0.344. Bad defense or "home court" officiating?

I think you've got some great point here, but on Green vs Kawhi: The fundamental issue for me is that Kawhi is playing the 3 while Green has played the 4/5. No one really doubts that Kawhi has the build to be a great 3 whoever he's up against (even if someone outplays him, he's still doing better than most), but Green's breakthrough on the Warriors has always come with the question of whether running him as a big could be exploited. Right now, answer seems to be a clear yes.

[bondom34]

I agree with this. I don't see him being #1 on my ballot but a guy who wins B2B MVPs is definitely an all-time great. Not even sure who would argue otherwise at this point.

You guys are starting to talk me into it, but it may take a huge effort from 1 of the 3 remaining.

Really depends on your criteria.

Let me ask you this, are you dropping CP because of his injury this year? I think most are and the same should be applied to Curry. Difference is that Curry had a GOAT level RS so he will still remain in my top 5 but for my POY is the culmination of the level of play for the entire RS + PS.

Missed time + under-performance makes it hard for me to have a guy as #1 when other guys were on the court giving their team a better chance to win. The level of play has been wildly inconsistent for Curry at this point even despite the relatively good looking box score numbers.

For me the two prime contenders for the 1 spot right now are Russ/Bron with KD a close 2nd (3rd). Only time will tell.

Sort of, but he was borderline. He was tight w/ KD for the 5th spot, and it could have gone either way. Curry was far and away number 1 until now. So a smaller gap had to be made up. I don't know quite where I'm at.

And this series still isn't over, I'm not calling it.

[PaulieWal]

You guys are starting to talk me into it, but it may take a huge effort from 1 of the 3 remaining.

Really depends on your criteria.

Let me ask you this, are you dropping CP because of his injury this year? I think most are and the same should be applied to Curry. Difference is that Curry had a GOAT level RS so he will still remain in my top 5 but for my POY is the culmination of the level of play for the entire RS + PS.

Missed time + under-performance makes it hard for me to have a guy as #1 when other guys were on the court giving their team a better chance to win. The level of play has been wildly inconsistent for Curry at this point even despite the relatively good looking box score numbers.

For me the two prime contenders for the 1 spot right now are Russ/Bron with KD a close 2nd (3rd). Only time will tell.

Sort of, but he was borderline. He was tight w/ KD for the 5th spot, and it could have gone either way. Curry was far and away number 1 until now. So a smaller gap had to be made up. I don't know quite where I'm at.

And this series still isn't over, I'm not calling it.

Oh, I agree. The series isn't over but Curry has to show up win or lose for him to have a chance on my ballot.

The other thing to mention is that Curry was way better than anyone else in the RS but the top 5 guys were still playing damn well in the RS. Curry had a huge lead at the end of the RS but his playoffs have been injury plagued, meanwhile guys like Russ, Bron and KD have stepped up.

[Doctor MJ]

Speaking for me personally, I see plenty of room those still playing to surpass Curry in my POY but nothing is likely to make me doubt that Curry is an all-time great.

I agree with this. I don't see him being #1 on my ballot but a guy who wins B2B MVPs is definitely an all-time great. Not even sure who would argue otherwise at this point.

You guys are starting to talk me into it, but it may take a huge effort from 1 of the 3 remaining.

Just to talk about 2 likely scenarios:

If OKC continues to dominate GSW and then CLE like they've been doing, with Westbrook doing what he's doing, I could see putting Westbrook 1st.

If Cleveland wins the title with LeBron seeming to be the best player on the court the whole time, it will be awfully hard not to put him at #1.

Interestingly, in either scenario Curry keeping the #2 spot seems pretty reasonable to me. Not guaranteeing that's what I'd do, maybe he'd end up 1st or 3rd, but it will be easy to make a case for him for 2nd.

[bondom34]

Makes sense.

I do think the top 5 is locked for me at this point, now I'm down to order.

[bondom34]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MarcJSpearsESPN/status/735546781585444864[/tweet]

[mikejames23]

My issue with dropping Curry from #1 is an entire season’s worth of work. It wasn’t until the last couple games that he’s been disappointing. These are obviously the most important games of the year, but…

Dropping him out of #1 on what, 2 bad games? This still sounds outlandish to me. If you’re Golden State, I really feel Draymond Green completely disappearing is where the majority of the blame needs to go. That, and Donovan outcoaching Kerr. Do you really kick the guy out, the guy who’s been in his own tier for the entire year? It’s not too long ago that he pretty much crushed the Blazers off the bench.

Let’s say playoff games count for more. The last 2 games (and perhaps the elimination game) cannot make up for 80+ games of amazing work. They simply cannot. On top of this, these performances fall more under the “underwhelming” category than the “choke job” category, for me.

2 games? The regular season ended weeks ago and Curry hasn't been able to use the time since to add to his resume. I'm not saying you have to weight the playoffs vs the regular season in any given way, but it's pretty understandable to me those who Curry's lack of playoff accomplishment will be a sizable issue.

This is an odd exaggeration. The Warriors have played 2 teams they're clearly better than up until now. This was the only series where Curry had to do something more. What exactly is he adding to his resume by playing a couple extra games in the first two rounds?

[Doctor MJ]

My issue with dropping Curry from #1 is an entire season’s worth of work. It wasn’t until the last couple games that he’s been disappointing. These are obviously the most important games of the year, but…

Dropping him out of #1 on what, 2 bad games? This still sounds outlandish to me. If you’re Golden State, I really feel Draymond Green completely disappearing is where the majority of the blame needs to go. That, and Donovan outcoaching Kerr. Do you really kick the guy out, the guy who’s been in his own tier for the entire year? It’s not too long ago that he pretty much crushed the Blazers off the bench.

Let’s say playoff games count for more. The last 2 games (and perhaps the elimination game) cannot make up for 80+ games of amazing work. They simply cannot. On top of this, these performances fall more under the “underwhelming” category than the “choke job” category, for me.

2 games? The regular season ended weeks ago and Curry hasn't been able to use the time since to add to his resume. I'm not saying you have to weight the playoffs vs the regular season in any given way, but it's pretty understandable to me those who Curry's lack of playoff accomplishment will be a sizable issue.

This is an odd exaggeration. The Warriors have played 2 teams they're clearly better than up until now. This was the only series where Curry had to do something more. What exactly is he adding to his resume by playing a couple extra games in the first two rounds?

Look I GET your perspective. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just trying to point out that no one would have Curry anywhere near their "Best in Playoffs" list which typically have quite a large impact on POY votes.

[Bruh Man]

My issue with dropping Curry from #1 is an entire season’s worth of work. It wasn’t until the last couple games that he’s been disappointing. These are obviously the most important games of the year, but…

Dropping him out of #1 on what, 2 bad games? This still sounds outlandish to me. If you’re Golden State, I really feel Draymond Green completely disappearing is where the majority of the blame needs to go. That, and Donovan outcoaching Kerr. Do you really kick the guy out, the guy who’s been in his own tier for the entire year? It’s not too long ago that he pretty much crushed the Blazers off the bench.

Let’s say playoff games count for more. The last 2 games (and perhaps the elimination game) cannot make up for 80+ games of amazing work. They simply cannot. On top of this, these performances fall more under the “underwhelming” category than the “choke job” category, for me.

2 games? The regular season ended weeks ago and Curry hasn't been able to use the time since to add to his resume. I'm not saying you have to weight the playoffs vs the regular season in any given way, but it's pretty understandable to me those who Curry's lack of playoff accomplishment will be a sizable issue.

This is an odd exaggeration. The Warriors have played 2 teams they're clearly better than up until now. This was the only series where Curry had to do something more. What exactly is he adding to his resume by playing a couple extra games in the first two rounds?

Honestly the only player that should be in the discussion is Westbrook, and it is understandable to put a bigger importance on playoff performance. Personally I had Curry #1 and didn't think anyone could pass him based on playoff play but Curry's lower level of play and the way Westbrook has been tearing it up has made me reconsider. Still the discussion is between those 2 players only imo.

[Texas Chuck]

Honestly the only player that should be in the discussion is Westbrook, and it is understandable to put a bigger importance on playoff performance. Personally I had Curry #1 and didn't think anyone could pass him based on playoff play but Curry's lower level of play and the way Westbrook has been tearing it up has made me reconsider. Still the discussion is between those 2 players only imo.

Curious what excludes Lebron?