2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[yoyoboy]

So the two players of the year might actually be from the same team. That’s crazy. Has that happened before?

[Peregrine01]

So the two players of the year might actually be from the same team. That’s crazy. Has that happened before?

Steph/KD in 2017 might be closest.

[Homer38]

So the two players of the year might actually be from the same team. That’s crazy. Has that happened before?

2001 maybe?

[PaulieWal]

So the two players of the year might actually be from the same team. That’s crazy. Has that happened before?

Steph/KD in 2017 might be closest.

2011?

[Homer38]

Read on Twitter

[freethedevil]

So the two players of the year might actually be from the same team. That’s crazy. Has that happened before?

Steph/KD in 2017 might be closest.

2011?

no. dont think either even got #1

[PaulieWal]

Steph/KD in 2017 might be closest.

2011?

no. dont think either even got #1

Didn't LeBron win POY in 2017? Or was it KD?

[freethedevil]

2011?

no. dont think either even got #1

Didn't LeBron win POY in 2017? Or was it KD?

Lebron got #1. Wasn't even close. KD was able to barely pipe curry for #2 which is a travesty really.

[eminence]

Shaq/Kobe went 1st/3rd in '01 and '02 (Duncan 2nd both years).

'71 KAJ/Oscar went 1st/4th. Arizin/Johnston in '56. '58 Pettit/Hagan.

Moses/DrJ 1st/5th in '83. Duncan/Robinson also in '99. Russell/Jones in '65.

Those are the ones I saw on first pass where a team had both the winner and another top 5 guy.

[mikejames23]

Hmm. I expect Jokic to bounce back for a great game 2 and make it one hell of a series. We'll see. Projections wise, I still have Jokic's feat as being ultra impressive. MVP'ing this Nuggets roster is hard work. Murray, Porter, Grant, etc. need a good amount of setting up from Jokic's supreme talents in the post.

Wish we had more from Paul Milsap. At 34, he looks a bit on the veteran side. The younger him was a solid defensive player and could put 15-20 points easy.

[homecourtloss]

Read on Twitter

In 2017, LeBron + Love were +22.3 per possessions before the finals vs. the GSW in 391 minutes

Even after the finals they were still +14.3 in 541 minutes (AD and Bron have played 268 minutes so far).

Some others:

Jordan +Pippen, 1997: +11.5 in 656 minutes (BKREF numbers for before 2008j
Jordan + Pippen, 1998: +8.1 in 724 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2000: +4.1 in 794 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2001: +14.9 in 620 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2002: +8.1 in 697 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2003: +3.1 in 449 minutes
Kobe + Odom, 2009: +16.1 in 598 minutes
Kobe + Gasol, 2009: +10.2 in 831 minutes
LBJ + Wade, 2012: +13.5 in 799 minutes
LBJ + Wade, 2013: +.5 in 678 minutes
LBJ + Allen, 2013: +11.5 in 455 minutes
KD + Westbrook, 2014: +2.9 in 696 minutes
LBJ + Love, 2015: +15.9 in 99 minutes
LBJ + Tristan T., 2016: +16.9 in 547 minutes
LBJ + Love, 2016: +14.9 in 548 minutes
LBJ + Kyrie, 2016: +12.5 in 672 minutes
KD+ Westbrook, 2016: +10.1 in 592 minutes
LBJ + Kyrie, 2017: +12.7 in 593 minutes
Kawhi + Lowry, 2019: +10.1 in 780 minutes

[Doctor MJ]

So I took a look at the RealGM POY Project year by year just to see how certain players were voted in the past. I saw that fpliii had a complete list of all the POY Shares through 2015. I wanted to see where things stood after the last 4 full seasons, so I went back and looked at the 2016-2019 RealGM POY shares of LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Paul, Westbrook, Kawhi, Davis, and Giannis as well as double checking Kobe/Duncan/KG/Dirk/Wade to see how much things have changed in 4 years.

Again, shout out to fpliii who I'm just piggybacking off of and I don't want this to be considered "official" because I don't have a master spreadsheet of all the votes, but here's the All-Time list that I came up with after tallying up the 2016-19 POY shares for the previous players that I mentioned above. I broke it down in tiers to make it easier on the eyes.

Code: Select all

1   Bill Russell   10.956
2   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   10.221
3   LeBron James   9.913
4   Michael Jordan   9.578

5   Wilt Chamberlain   7.818
6   Magic Johnson   7.114
7   Tim Duncan   6.248
8   Larry Bird   6.147
9   Shaquille O'Neal   5.910

10   Julius Erving   5.046
11   Karl Malone   4.649
12   Bob Pettit   4.466
13   Oscar Robertson   4.413
14   Kobe Bryant   4.380
15   Hakeem Olajuwon   4.380

16   Jerry West   3.795
17   Kevin Garnett   3.571
18   Moses Malone   3.478

19   Stephen Curry   2.957
20   Kevin Durant   2.945
21   Dwyane Wade   2.601
22   Chris Paul   2.557
23   David Robinson   2.431
24   Dirk Nowitzki   2.373

25   Elgin Baylor   2.223
26   Dolph Schayes   2.176
27   Walt Frazier   2.061
28   Charles Barkley   2.029
29   James Harden   1.926

30   George Gervin   1.582
31   Bob McAdoo   1.402
32   Bill Walton   1.373
33   Steve Nash   1.319

34   Kawhi Leonard   1.192
35   Rick Barry   1.187
36   Bob Cousy   1.115
37   Dwight Howard   1.104
38   Neil Johnston   1.095
39   Patrick Ewing   1.087
40   Paul Arizin   1.033

41   Giannis Antetokounmpo 0.860
42   Alonzo Mourning   0.843
43   Gary Payton   0.751
44   Russell Westbrook   0.729
45   Willis Reed   0.684
46   Artis Gilmore   0.681
47   John Havlicek   0.662
48   Dave Cowens   0.645
49   Sidney Moncrief   0.617
50   Tracy McGrady   0.613
51   Anthony Davis   0.612


Active Players
3. LeBron is pretty close to being the RealGM POY Project GOAT, he's probably not going to get it this year but there is a chance if he has two dominant rounds to lead LA to a title.
19. Curry and 20. Durant absolutely neck and neck at around the 20th spot all-time. Can they return from serious injuries in their 30s to make a run at the Top 15?
22. Chris Paul in the Top 25, with a chance at passing D-Wade after this year.
29. Harden pretty comfortably in the Top 30, looking likely to make the Top 25 soon.
34. Kawhi is in the Top 35, looking likely to make the Top 30 soon.
41. Giannis already a Top 45 player after last year, very likely to be Top 40 after this year.
44. Westbrook in the Top 45, but at this rate it seems doubtful that he ever moves up much from this spot
51. Davis is a virtual lock to make the Top 50 after this year, he even has a real chance to be in the Top 45 or even better


- LeBron is something else
- Durant is a little underrated based on the voting imo. I'm not even the biggest fan of him but I do think he deserved more votes in 2017-19 than he received, when he was clearly a Top 3 player in the sport. Curry is also another guy that probably should have more votes too. But I guess that's what happens when you join up and split votes.
- CP3 vs. Wade is one of the most interesting debates, pretty cool how they're neck and neck and will llkely end that way
- Harden is the guy who really took advantage of the Curry/Durant marriage in terms of POY shares, although obviously he would prefer the rings those two stopped him from winning. He still has work to do to catch CP3/Wade.
- Injuries, load management, limited role early in his career... yet Kawhi is still in an impressive spot on this list. What kind of longevity will he have?
- Giannis and Davis are the only active guys already on this list who are expected to get even better in the next couple of years, will be interesting to see where they stand on this list 3 years from now
- Hate him or Love him, Westbrook is a 1st ballot HOFer and I really hope he regains that pre-COVID rim attacking form to make another Top 5 run next year

Love that you did this O_6! Hey, I've been meaning to re-assemble a spreadsheet that was entirely up-to-date here. Is that what you did? Would you mind sharing on Google Sheets if so?

Regarding some of your specific observations:

- I'm actually surprised Davis is already as high as 51. He might be about to race up these charts over the next few years.

- what happens when you join up and split votes. Indeed, and I would note that they way this metric has a tendency to under-rank Curry/Durant relative to their stature means that you could say it underrates them in general. 2 additional points on that: 1) one of the reasons I like explicitly giving 5 HM spots in addition to my 5 ranked spots each year is that it's a place where #2 guys on teams tend to be able to be slot in more easily which makes the tendency toward discounting beta lesser, but that doesn't do much when you're talking about 2 Top 3 players, and 2) My GOAT lists are always done informed by the incrementalist approach of the RPOY project, but in the end I think a holistic career-long assessment will always provide the most meaningful career assessment.

- Harden took advantage. I'll say I even had him at #1 for 2018 and I stand by that still...despite the fact that always thought LeBron, Steph, and KD were better players.

- I'm about the most critical Westbrook guy around and would personally give him less POY shares than our project has, but I quite agree he's absolutely HOF worhty.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm pleasantly surprised Dr.J is in the top ten.

Me too, I don't think I'd rank him that high but sometimes I think that I underrate some of my favorite players. Julius is one of my favorites, but I'm trying not to put him too high and usually have him below guys like Dirk and Kobe - is it fair?

Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to be too objective in my rankings. I'm not nearly as high on Magic, Wilt, Julius, Oscar or Moses as some very knowledgeable posters here, even though I like them more than the rest of the top 20. Hell, I'm lower on Duncan (my favorite player ever) than some posters as well!

So it's interesting. I love Dr. J on a deep aesthetic level, but I'll say that by the end of the RPOY project, despite me ranking Erving ahead of Oscar/West before the project, and despite Erving getting more POY shares, by the end of it all, I was (and am) more impressed by Oscar & West than I am by Erving.

What Erving had, if I recall correctly, was a) a fabulous run in his ABA years which of course don't get factored into NBA MVP shares, and b) relatively weak competition in the most-merger era.

Sorry to be a bit of downer in saying I didn't find him to be quite as impressive as his POY shares would indicate. I'll reiterate: 1) I think Erving was an aesthetic dream in how he played, and a deserving icon beyond mere winning-impact and 2) he'd have done better if the NBA at that time played smarter basketball with a recognition of the value of spacing, which the ABA had been ahead-of-the curve about.

[freethedevil]

yeah bam's the heat's best player. Butler hella overrated.

[GSP]

yeah bam's the heat's best player. Butler hella overrated.

Jimmy was their best player against Indiana and Milwaukee

Just b.c our bigs are cheeks doesnt mean Bams better. Joel Embiids basic ass put up 30PPG on 60ts on our bigs

[freethedevil]

yeah bam's the heat's best player. Butler hella overrated.

Jimmy was their best player against Indiana and Milwaukee

Just b.c our bigs are cheeks doesnt mean Bams better. Joel Embiids basic ass put up 30PPG on 60ts on our bigs

indiana isn't ****.

BAM was easily the most pivotal part of the bucks series. Nuetralizing giannis both on offense and defense was by the far the most valuable contribution of the series. Butler's marginally more impressive scoring doesn't really match up to that and his passing may not even be as valauble as bam's rim gravity.

Off course, i don't even know if i can say butler's scoring was more impressive given bam wasmostly doing it against giannis and lopez.

[GSP]

yeah bam's the heat's best player. Butler hella overrated.

Jimmy was their best player against Indiana and Milwaukee

Just b.c our bigs are cheeks doesnt mean Bams better. Joel Embiids basic ass put up 30PPG on 60ts on our bigs

indiana isn't ****.

BAM was easily the most pivotal part of the bucks series. Nuetralizing giannis both on offense and defense was by the far the most valuable contribution of the series. Butler's marginally more impressive scoring doesn't really match up to that and his passing may not even be as valauble as bam's rim gravity.

Off course, i don't even know if i can say butler's scoring was more impressive given bam wasmostly doing it against giannis and lopez.

Whaaaat? Did u watch the Bucks series? Bam was hardly the main factor in neutralizing Giannis. It was a complete team effort and alot of the zones in the half court and wall building in transition were the major components for it. Bam was matched up much more with Brook Lopez and got lit up for most of the matchup.

The only time Bam neutralized Giannis was that one game back in February or Marc. The Heat were playing without Jimmy in that bubble matchup and Bam got completely tortured by Giannis on both ends.

Actually looking at the numbers Bam didnt even have the most matchup minutes on Giannis for the series. It was Jae Crowder by a lot. It was their wing depth in the zones mainly. Bam played an important role but it was hardly his play that was the decisive factor against Giannis

[MyUniBroDavis]

Its funny how you guys are arguing when the answer is tyler herro the god

[freethedevil]

**** the plus minus davis is the #1.

[limbo]

I think there's a clear Top 7 situation going on right now... It's LeBron, Kawhi, Giannis, AD, Jokic, Harden, Luka, and then the rest... Looking forward to see how people will order these guys, because there's so many ways you can look at it.

LeBron - still arguably the best player in the league, but at the same time, can afford to play 31 mpg in the Playoffs and put up 15 points and his team still blows out arguably the 2nd best team in the West... Unprecedented situation for LeBron. Are people going to 'punish' him for not doing more, or give him credit for not dominating the offense and let other players be stars in their own roles...

Kawhi - Per impact he was a Top 3 player in the league during most of the year. But missing games, having a subpar series against the Nuggets and Clippers collapsing overall as a team is going to hurt his overall value, i'd imagine.

Giannis - Arguably the best floor raiser and performer in the regular season... But has a subpar 3 games against the Heat and gets injured as well while his team looks like crap.

AD - Davis might just be the best performer this year overall, but especially in the Playoffs where he's putting up one of the greatest individual runs ever... Still, the biggest question regarding Anthony Davis remains pretty much unanswered... How much can he elevate the play of his teammates on the offensive end? Right now, he's the guy among the top players on this list, who has, by far, the most help and least responsibility in what is arguably the most important area on offense... If you switched him with Jokic on the Nuggets, would AD have the same level of impact offensively?

Jokic - speaking of Jokic, he's making his case for being one of the best offensive Bigs of all-time. His defense has weaknesses but is not bad overall.

Harden & Luka - I see them as fairly similar players. Both two of best offensive players in the league but the worse defenders on here. Ultimately, i would give the edge to Harden because he's been a bit more consistent, healthier and somewhat better defensively... Honestly, this year has been so crazy at the top that i can see Harden being ranked anywhere from #1 to outside of the Top 5... You really can't argue with the fact that his offensive burden is higher than any other player in the league, especially since Gordon and Westbrook were largely horrible this year... So the fact that he's had the offensive impact he did, and was largely consistent throughout most of the year, speaks to his incredible value on offense. At the same time though, there are questions surrounding his unilateral approach on offense, as well as the fact that the reason he doesn't have more help offensively is because he was a big part of the reason Houston traded their 2nd best player on that end, for a guy that ended up being completely useless come Playoff time... Which is a horrible look.