2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[Fadeaway_J]

Bucks fans wont like to hear this but Giannis is more of a Marcus Camby level Dpoy than a generational one.........i remember the Hakeem comps lol............he is a good defender but massively overrated on that end. He wasnt better than Ad when he won Dpoy too. Not a better defender than Ad or Bam in general yet has the Dpoy they dont. Mobley, Wemby, Chet are prolly already better defenders than Giannis ever was too. Bucks defensive collapse after Jrue got traded has been alarming his defensive prime is prolly higher than Giannis too

Here's another far more plausible possibility: he's just not as good a defender as he was a few years ago, and also has far worse defensive players around him. Or do you not think it's strange that you're only just having this epiphany considering how long Giannis has been making All-Defensive teams?

[GSP]

Bucks fans wont like to hear this but Giannis is more of a Marcus Camby level Dpoy than a generational one.........i remember the Hakeem comps lol............he is a good defender but massively overrated on that end. He wasnt better than Ad when he won Dpoy too. Not a better defender than Ad or Bam in general yet has the Dpoy they dont. Mobley, Wemby, Chet are prolly already better defenders than Giannis ever was too. Bucks defensive collapse after Jrue got traded has been alarming his defensive prime is prolly higher than Giannis too

Here's another far more plausible possibility: he's just not as good a defender as he was a few years ago, and also has far worse defensive players around him. Or do you not think it's strange that you're only just having this epiphany considering how long Giannis has been making All-Defensive teams?

Ive been calling his defense overrated on here since he won Dpoy tho then he had that embarrassing upset sweep against Heat after he won it where his defense was exposed even lost them a game at the end on a game losing foul. Perhaps he has declined but his defense was always overblown

[GSP]

Donovan Clingan is him. Hes already better than Ayton. Blazers nailed that pick. He is a game changer.

So many great up and coming defensive bigs right now.

Wemby, Chet, Mobley, Jjj, Claxton, Clingan, Isaac, Stewart, Lively, Okongwu, Jabari, Eason, Kessler...............looking around league we are prolly in middle of a transition period rn

[Fadeaway_J]

Bucks fans wont like to hear this but Giannis is more of a Marcus Camby level Dpoy than a generational one.........i remember the Hakeem comps lol............he is a good defender but massively overrated on that end. He wasnt better than Ad when he won Dpoy too. Not a better defender than Ad or Bam in general yet has the Dpoy they dont. Mobley, Wemby, Chet are prolly already better defenders than Giannis ever was too. Bucks defensive collapse after Jrue got traded has been alarming his defensive prime is prolly higher than Giannis too

Here's another far more plausible possibility: he's just not as good a defender as he was a few years ago, and also has far worse defensive players around him. Or do you not think it's strange that you're only just having this epiphany considering how long Giannis has been making All-Defensive teams?

Ive been calling his defense overrated on here since he won Dpoy tho then he had that embarrassing upset sweep against Heat after he won it where his defense was exposed even lost them a game at the end on a game losing foul. Perhaps he has declined but his defense was always overblown

There's a wide gap between "overrated" and "Marcus Camby level DPOY" which is just ridiculous. You can still be a generational defender while being worse than Bam or AD.

[rk2023]

Steph, Giannis, Poole, KAT, Wemby, Bron - all incredible performances in the last 24 hours. How people aren’t entertained with the product is beyond me

[TheGOATRises007]

Steph, Giannis, Poole, KAT, Wemby, Bron - all incredible performances in the last 24 hours. How people aren’t entertained with the product is beyond me

There must have been an attractive woman courtside.

[penbeast0]

Here's another far more plausible possibility: he's just not as good a defender as he was a few years ago, and also has far worse defensive players around him. Or do you not think it's strange that you're only just having this epiphany considering how long Giannis has been making All-Defensive teams?

Ive been calling his defense overrated on here since he won Dpoy tho then he had that embarrassing upset sweep against Heat after he won it where his defense was exposed even lost them a game at the end on a game losing foul. Perhaps he has declined but his defense was always overblown

There's a wide gap between "overrated" and "Marcus Camby level DPOY" which is just ridiculous. You can still be a generational defender while being worse than Bam or AD.

I though "generational" meant so good there's only one (maybe two but then some generations wont have one) in a generation . . . Jordan, LeBron, that level of player.

[Fadeaway_J]

Ive been calling his defense overrated on here since he won Dpoy tho then he had that embarrassing upset sweep against Heat after he won it where his defense was exposed even lost them a game at the end on a game losing foul. Perhaps he has declined but his defense was always overblown

There's a wide gap between "overrated" and "Marcus Camby level DPOY" which is just ridiculous. You can still be a generational defender while being worse than Bam or AD.

I though "generational" meant so good there's only one (maybe two but then some generations wont have one) in a generation . . . Jordan, LeBron, that level of player.

I'm not sure - I think of it more as a certain level of defensive ability rather than a hard cap on a specific number. Either way, I'm pretty sure Giannis is closer to that level than to someone like Camby.

[tsherkin]

Ive been calling his defense overrated on here since he won Dpoy tho then he had that embarrassing upset sweep against Heat after he won it where his defense was exposed even lost them a game at the end on a game losing foul. Perhaps he has declined but his defense was always overblown

There's a wide gap between "overrated" and "Marcus Camby level DPOY" which is just ridiculous. You can still be a generational defender while being worse than Bam or AD.

I though "generational" meant so good there's only one (maybe two but then some generations wont have one) in a generation . . . Jordan, LeBron, that level of player.

I"m with this. There's no way you can be a 'generational' defender and be worse than Bam or AD. 'Generational' has traditionally been used to mean "defining a generation, best of, once-a-generation," that sort of thing.

[Fadeaway_J]

There's a wide gap between "overrated" and "Marcus Camby level DPOY" which is just ridiculous. You can still be a generational defender while being worse than Bam or AD.

I though "generational" meant so good there's only one (maybe two but then some generations wont have one) in a generation . . . Jordan, LeBron, that level of player.

I"m with this. There's no way you can be a 'generational' defender and be worse than Bam or AD. 'Generational' has traditionally been used to mean "defining a generation, best of, once-a-generation," that sort of thing.

So theoretically if Hakeem, Russell, and Duncan had entered the league within three years of each other, they would suddenly cease to be generational defenders?

[tsherkin]

So theoretically if Hakeem, Russell, and Duncan had entered the league within three years of each other, they would suddenly cease to be generational defenders?

No, that would be an incredible conjunction of talent which would be an exception.

But in the context of the quote to which I responded, Giannis was never a generational defender. He didn't really change anything about defense. He was never the most dominant defender in the league. IMHO, at the time, he wasn't better than Bam, AD or Gobert.

There was nothing about him tied to generational impact as a defender. That's what the label is supposed to describe. This isn't Hakeem or Timmy or Russ; those guys were humongous defenders. Giannis was very good. He was given an award he probably didn't deserve. That doesn't suddenly make some generation-defining defensive presence.

[Fadeaway_J]

So theoretically if Hakeem, Russell, and Duncan had entered the league within three years of each other, they would suddenly cease to be generational defenders?

No, that would be an incredible conjunction of talent which would be an exception.

But in the context of the quote to which I responded, Giannis was never a generational defender. He didn't really change anything about defense. He was never the most dominant defender in the league. IMHO, at the time, he wasn't better than Bam, AD or Gobert.

There was nothing about him tied to generational impact as a defender. That's what the label is supposed to describe. This isn't Hakeem or Timmy or Russ; those guys were humongous defenders. Giannis was very good. He was given an award he probably didn't deserve. That doesn't suddenly make some generation-defining defensive presence.

I don't agree with the parts in bold, but I was more interested in the semantics of the term. Clearly my definition is less restrictive than yours though, which is fair enough.

[tsherkin]

I don't agree with the parts in bold, but I was more interested in the semantics of the term. Clearly my definition is less restrictive than yours though, which is fair enough.

I'm glad I was able to clarify. Text is... frustrating, sometimes.

I find that there is an impulse to make terms a lot less restrictive over the past decade or so. It feels... participation trophy-ish to me, which is why I rebel against it, as if people are trying to pull a full Syndrome on the subject and make everyone super. Giannis is an incredible player. Perhaps the more so because he can't shoot worth a damn anywhere away from the basket. Great physical tools, developed a bunch of other skills. Was a pretty good defender through most of his 20s. I really hope to see a healthy version of him in the playoffs this year, because he's fun to watch when that's the case. He's kind of like the Shaq of the 2020s, right down to being frequently injured due to his power-focused style of play and lack of a finesse game, but with much more of a consistent motor.

I like Giannis, but to me, "generational" is right up there with "superstar;" it's rarefied air. And while Giannis is unquestionably a superstar, I have never looked at his defensive impact and thought him a generational defender. I very much agree with the way he was compared to a bleh DPOY like Marcus Camby who, while also still an impact defender, had no real business winning the award over other guys in the league.

EDIT: The obvious one for me is Gobert.

[Ron Swanson]

With Giannis on the court the 2019-20 Bucks had one of, if not the most dominant era relative defense in modern NBA history (99.6 vs. 110.6 league average for a -11.0 differential). Also, -7.9 defensive on/off, #1 in DBPM, #1 in DWS, #1 in dRAPM (if I recall the highest ever recorded, unless they recently changed the formula).

If that's not a "generational" DPOTY campaign then I don't know what is. People either seem to have awfully short memories (no, he hasn't been that level of defender the past few years), or this is just more of a style over substance thing (like his offense, he can be a bit of a wrecking ball that isn't always aesthetically pleasing). The "impact" is absolutely inarguable though when every single impact metric we have/had says he was actually that good. "Wasn't better than Bam" is certainly a take that one probably needs to back up with something more than anecdotal evidence.

[Fadeaway_J]

I don't agree with the parts in bold, but I was more interested in the semantics of the term. Clearly my definition is less restrictive than yours though, which is fair enough.

I'm glad I was able to clarify. Text is... frustrating, sometimes.

I find that there is an impulse to make terms a lot less restrictive over the past decade or so. It feels... participation trophy-ish to me, which is why I rebel against it, as if people are trying to pull a full Syndrome on the subject and make everyone super. Giannis is an incredible player. Perhaps the more so because he can't shoot worth a damn anywhere away from the basket. Great physical tools, developed a bunch of other skills. Was a pretty good defender through most of his 20s. I really hope to see a healthy version of him in the playoffs this year, because he's fun to watch when that's the case. He's kind of like the Shaq of the 2020s, right down to being frequently injured due to his power-focused style of play and lack of a finesse game, but with much more of a consistent motor.

I like Giannis, but to me, "generational" is right up there with "superstar;" it's rarefied air. And while Giannis is unquestionably a superstar, I have never looked at his defensive impact and thought him a generational defender. I very much agree with the way he was compared to a bleh DPOY like Marcus Camby who, while also still an impact defender, had no real business winning the award over other guys in the league.

EDIT: The obvious one for me is Gobert.

Yeah, I just don't see the Camby comparison at all. Camby having a DPOY over Duncan is far more egregious than Giannis over AD or Bam (Bam has more of a beef with someone like Marcus Smart).

I see people rank AD higher as a defender all the time now, which may be true in terms of peak ability, but absolutely not in terms of game-to-game consistency or motor during Giannis's peak years. It just doesn't pass the smell test to me that AD or Bam are supposed to be on this entirely different level from where he was in 2019-20, especially in regards to a regular season award. There may be some statistical case that proves me wrong (I'll admit that isn't my strong suit), but it feels like rewriting history to me.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, I just don't see the Camby comparison at all. Camby having a DPOY over Duncan is far more egregious than Giannis over AD or Bam (Bam has more of a beef with someone like Marcus Smart).

I disagree, but that's okay. We can agree to disagree on that. I'm not in the mood to go through it step by step at the moment, and that's sort of what needs to happen to carry this forward, I think. Suffice to say, I respect Giannis as a superstar regardless, and again, I hope we get to see a healthy version of him in the playoffs this year. He is right up there for me with guys I'd love to see win another title, and whom I always enjoy watching when they are on.

[AEnigma]

With Giannis on the court the 2019-20 Bucks had one of, if not the most dominant era relative defense in modern NBA history (99.6 vs. 110.6 league average for a -11.0 differential). Also, -7.9 defensive on/off, #1 in DBPM, #1 in DWS, #1 in dRAPM (if I recall the highest ever recorded, unless they recently changed the formula).

If that's not a "generational" DPOTY campaign then I don't know what is. People either seem to have awfully short memories (no, he hasn't been that level of defender the past few years), or this is just more of a style over substance thing (like his offense, he can be a bit of a wrecking ball that isn't always aesthetically pleasing). The "impact" is absolutely inarguable though when every single impact metric we have/had says he was actually that good. "Wasn't better than Bam" is certainly a take that one probably needs to back up with something more than anecdotal evidence.

I was in the process of writing a similar post. Absurd that people are already trying to rewrite something we all watched just five years ago.

If someone wants to say Davis was better in 2020 because of the postseason, hey, fair stance, but there was a reason the regular season award was barely questioned. 2020 was a ludicrous season. Giannis was 51-12 that year (66-win pace) with a +10.6 team net rating. The Bucks had a 102.5 defensive rating in games he played and a 108.4 defensive rating in games he missed. By comparison, the Lakers had a 106.5 defensive rating in games with Anthony Davis and a 110.8 defensive rating in games without him. And the Heat? 110.8 in games with Bam.

What about just looking on court, as Ron did? Well, by comparison, Bam had a 109.8 on-court defensive rating (111.3 off-court), and Davis had a 107.7 on-court defensive rating (105.84 off-court). Worth reiterating: league average that season was around 110.6.





The reason Bam and Davis do not have an award is because they have never been the most impressive regular season defenders (granted, neither was 2022 Marcus Smart, but at least the Celtics collectively were a league-leading defence). What you guys are doing is no different from casuals ranting about Gobert’s four DPoYs.

(And mind you, while I am referring to the regular season here, Bam has never had a defensive postseason like 2019 Giannis did either.)

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, I just don't see the Camby comparison at all. Camby having a DPOY over Duncan is far more egregious than Giannis over AD or Bam (Bam has more of a beef with someone like Marcus Smart).

I disagree, but that's okay. We can agree to disagree on that. I'm not in the mood to go through it step by step at the moment, and that's sort of what needs to happen to carry this forward, I think.

Or we can just look at peak Giannis obliterating Bam in demonstrated impact:


Crazy how non-generational defender Giannis saw his team collapse by 7 points upon taking regular-seasons off (before picking up where they left off in the postseason when Giannis went back to full tilt).

Gainnis is as versatile as Bam while having a massive advantage as both a rim-protector and a help-defender. Placing Bam in the same stratosphere as peak Giannis defensively is just indefensible revisionism. He never achieved anywhere near the same results, rs or playoffs, and he never evidenced anywhere near the same defensive value. If one cares for the postseason Giannis had an excellent argument as the best defender in the league from 2019-2021.

Comparing him vs Bam is the defensive equivalent of comparing Kobe to Lebron

[Texas Chuck]

yeah I like Bam, but he is not Giannis. Not at defense. Not at basketball. AD really isn't either. Oh he's had some flashes, but never anywhere near as consistent as Giannnis.

[parsnips33]

Steph, Giannis, Poole, KAT, Wemby, Bron - all incredible performances in the last 24 hours. How people aren’t entertained with the product is beyond me

But didn't you see Wemby is shooting 3s!!!! He should be grinding it out in the post!!!!!