James Harden is a superstar

[hokageinfamus]

Superstar talent yes, IQ and Mental toughness no.

I was watching the Nuggets game he kept on trying to go inside to draw contact and got stripped or lost the ball every time down. The game was in Houston and the refs weren't calling it and he didn't try to do anything else but that and in my head I'm like try something else man jeez.

Mentally it goes back to the finals I've never any player look so damn shook in a game before, it was almost like he forgot how to play basketball

[tsherkin]

By the way, I did some spot checking, and as far as I can ascertain Jordan never had a 20% shooting game. And he certainly never looked as lost and inept as Harden did last night.

He had a 4/16 night as a rookie (25%), and a 4/14 night (28.6%) that same season. He had a 3/17 night (17.6%) and a 5/20 night (25%) the season after, meaning that you did a terrible job checking, because that took me less than 30 seconds. 6/22 (27.3%) in 88. 4/16, 7/24 in 89. 5/18 in 90. 4/15, 5/17 in 92. 4/20 in 93 (20% bang-on). 7/28, 5/19, 8/27 in 95 (17-game regular season and 3 of them right there). 6/20, 7/26, 8/27 in 96. 7/25, 5/17 (twice) in 97. 2/17 (11.8%), 4/16 (twice), 7/25 in 98.

And that's just in Chicago.

3/16, 5/26, 1/5, 2/10, 2/9, 5/21, 4/14 (twice) and 7/24 in 2002 in his first season with the Wizards. 1/9, 3/12, 4/16, 5/20, 5/19, 4/15, 4/14 (three times) in 2003, also with the Wizards.

Jordan had a bunch of stinkers like that. He was, of course, a better scorer than Harden, better at basically everything, really, but he's the GOAT. And he STILL has games like that on his log, most of them before Washington. This basically annihilates your argument. And I haven't even touched on his 33.3% shooting nights, of which there are many.

The central question that remains to be answered is whether Harden qualifies as a superstar. Unsurprisingly, I say 'no'. I realize that its very early in the season,

And the answer may well be "no," but there are too many contextual factors here and you are ignoring far too many pertinent details for your assessment to be valid. Even if, in the end, it turns out to be a fair judgement, your current assessment is no good, because your arguments are full of inaccuracies and misrepresentations.

[Lightning25]

Remember the 00-01 season, when McGrady blew up as a superstar? People should go back and check his first 5 games of that season...really similar to Harden, he blew up against two bad teams, and got owned by three good teams.

Bottom line: give it time, we have no idea how this is going to turn out. Making conclusions off 5 games just doesn't make sense.

Wait, Wait, Wait, all the Harden fans were rubbing into everyone's face that Harden was a superstar based on 2 games.

So he plays against 3 real teams and he sucks and now we're going to be patient and wait it out now?

I always thought a 3 game sample size was better than 2....

[MisterWestside]

Wait, Wait, Wait, all the Harden fans were rubbing into everyone's face that Harden was a superstar based on 2 games.

So he plays against 3 real teams and he sucks and now we're going to be patient and wait it out now?

I always thought a 3 game sample size was better than 2....

Painting with a broad brush. Careful.

[reapaman]

Before last season there were constant threads about Harden being a bust now he is a superstar.

Oh what a difference a year makes.

[Lightning25]

Painting with a broad brush. Careful.

I don't know what you're talking about. I just know plenty of Harden fans were laughing at me after 2 games for comparing him to Joe Johnson and saying he wasn't a superstar before he played his first game in Houston.

In the next three games, he played against teams with very good perimeter defenses (Batum, Iggy, Allen) and are very good in general and all these Harden fans disappear and so does Harden's production.

Where is that RapCity kid at? I remember that guy tried to laugh at me saying my opinions are dumb because I said Westbrook was better and Harden wasn't a superstar. Well, Westbrook is better and Harden isn't a superstar. But of course he disappears like everyone else when they are wrong, I'm the only one that has enough balls to show up in both times.

[tsherkin]

So he plays against 3 real teams and he sucks and now we're going to be patient and wait it out now?

I always thought a 3 game sample size was better than 2....

Only marginally so, since it's still objectively a TINY sample.

But respond to his point, right?

Back in 00-01, McGrady's first five games:

32/12/14 on 44% FG, 2/4 3P and 8/11 from the line versus Washington, 2 turnovers

16/4/0 versus Miami, 7/16 FG, 0/1 3P, 2/5 FT, 4 turnovers

16/6/5 versus Philly, 5/18 FG, 0/1 3P, 6/6 FT, 5 turnovers

31/6/4 versus Seattle, 11/21 FG, 1/2 3P, 8/9 FT, 3 turnovers

14/7/3 versus Charlotte, 5/16 FG, 0/0 3P, 4/8 FT, 3 turnovers


Right? Fairly similar if you look at it. He'd go on to have a very good season, but he took some time adapting to his new role and crappy teammates.

[MacGill]

Painting with a broad brush. Careful.

I don't know what you're talking about. I just know plenty of Harden fans were laughing at me after 2 games for comparing him to Joe Johnson and saying he wasn't a superstar before he played his first game in Houston.

In the next three games, he played against teams with very good perimeter defenses (Batum, Iggy, Allen) and are very good in general and all these Harden fans disappear and so does Harden's production.

Where is that RapCity kid at? I remember that guy tried to laugh at me saying my opinions are dumb because I said Westbrook was better and Harden wasn't a superstar. Well, Westbrook is better and Harden isn't a superstar. But of course he disappears like everyone else when they are wrong, I'm the only one that has enough balls to show up in both times.

I think the point here is to say 5 games isn't sample enough either way to make the call given what has been discussed over the last 2 pages.

Going on about his poor games against better teams isn't any better than when he lit up the poor ones.

Maybe come back to this at the all-star break but time is needed here to compare against his role in OKC.

[Lightning25]

I think the point here is to say 5 games isn't sample enough either way to make the call given what has been discussed over the last 2 pages.

And my point is that all the Harden fans want to use time and more games because of how bad he has been in the last 3 games. Yet after the first 2 games of the season against two crappy teams, these guys didn't care that it has only been two games and they were celebrating as if they won a championship themselves.

People just want to use whatever is on their side. Since, the sample size is no longer on their size, now they want more time, but when it was on their side, LOL!!!! WE ARE RIGHT, WE DA BESS, HARDEN OWNS!!!

Going on about his poor games against better teams isn't an better than when he lit up the poor ones.

Maybe come back to this at the all-star break but time is needed here to compare against his role in OKC.

3 > 2


Next.

[MacGill]

I think the point here is to say 5 games isn't sample enough either way to make the call given what has been discussed over the last 2 pages.

And my point is that all the Harden fans want to use time and more games because of how bad he has been in the last 3 games. Yet after the first 2 games of the season against two crappy teams, these guys didn't care that it has only been two games and they were celebrating as if they won a championship themselves.

People just want to use whatever is on their side. Since, the sample size is no longer on their size, now they want more time, but when it was on their side, LOL!!!! WE ARE RIGHT, WE DA BESS, HARDEN OWNS!!!

Going on about his poor games against better teams isn't an better than when he lit up the poor ones.

Maybe come back to this at the all-star break but time is needed here to compare against his role in OKC.

3 > 2


Next.

Oh ok, I didn't realize you were trying to go hard at the Harden fans for a told you so

Like I said the 5 games should be analyzed of course but to the OT question, certainly isn't in any way shape or form conclusive evidence either way.

However carry on William Wallace...FFFrrreeddommm

[G35]

A superstar is suppose to lift his teammates up and they play off of him. Blaming his teammates is not an excuse for superstars. That's why they are superstars. They do what other's can't. Some players need talent around them to excel and some players can look good on bad teams.

A superstar can excel in any situation, which is my definition of superstar. There are only 3-5 superstars at a time in any given year. Harden is not one of them......

[tsherkin]

A superstar is suppose to lift his teammates up and they play off of him. Blaming his teammates is not an excuse for superstars. That's why they are superstars. They do what other's can't. Some players need talent around them to excel and some players can look good on bad teams.

But again, looking at the best of the best, when the talent is performing at a similarly poor level, they couldn't do anything either, so this is an awful, awful argument to try and use as a counterpoint to Harden.

A superstar can excel in any situation,

There are no such players.

It's quite possible that you are right; I am one of those in the camp that does not believe Harden is a superstar, but I think the backlash against the very idea that he could be a star-caliber player in a #1 role is a little frustrating, especially given that it's a) coming after only 3 bad games and b) comparable to struggles MANY other major stars have experienced at times.

We're not even a tenth of the way through his first season as a #1 option, playing with some teammates that are performing at a phenomenally poor level, and people are criticizing him as if we've had a fair chance to evaluate his abilities.

Michael Jordan's NBA debut was a 5/16 night for 16 points; should we have written him off then? Guys have bad games, especially when they're in new situations. Especially when their teammates are playing as poorly as is actually possible to play on offense. It affects a player, star or otherwise.

[Krodis]

Harden just can't buy a jumper anymore. He was hitting them during the two game hot streak. He was a bit of a streaky shooter in Oklahoma City, but this is getting silly. A lot of them are good looks too.

[MacGill]

A superstar is suppose to lift his teammates up and they play off of him. Blaming his teammates is not an excuse for superstars. That's why they are superstars. They do what other's can't. Some players need talent around them to excel and some players can look good on bad teams.

A superstar can excel in any situation, which is my definition of superstar. There are only 3-5 superstars at a time in any given year. Harden is not one of them......

Name me any player you then called superstar after 5 games playing? And by that I know Harden has been in the league a few years but certainly not in the limelight for what you describe. I am not saying Harden is booked to be a superstar but I do think he should be given a full season to show us what capacity he'll be.

No superstar that ever played excelled in any or every situation unless you define a superstars failure higher then an average player's make.

[tsherkin]

Harden just can't buy a jumper anymore. He was hitting them during the two game hot streak. He was a bit of a streaky shooter in Oklahoma City, but this is getting silly. A lot of them are good looks too.

We call this "a shooting slump" in most parts. Of course, the number of threes he's taking per game certainly isn't helping his percentages, that's for sure. He is, of course, be forced to take a variety of less-than-ideal threes, and that isn't helping either.

[Krodis]

He's 3-31 on jumpers since the first two games. He was 11-24 the first two games. I think that, more than the defense being played, is probably the reason he's scoring so much worse. And it's not like it's the defense forcing him into tougher shots. He took more jumpers (and more threes) the first two games, and some of them were heavily contested. And he's missed plenty of open ones since.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, it's a pretty rough slump. It has, of course, only been three games. If it keeps up for a lot longer, then we should be worried.

[tsherkin]

And... he's 0-for outside of 3 feet so far tonight against the Pistons.

[Krodis]

He's hit a couple threes now in the second half.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, he's looking better in the second half. 2/2 from 3, shot in the paint. Good stuff.