Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[Cavsfansince84]

No one was on MJ's level in terms of athleticism. I'm not sure what point you're making there outside of the obvious. Pistons had enough size and athleticism (and more importantly toughness) to make things as difficult as they could be for him.

Bird was bigger than MJ and look what Pistons did to him the year before. That team was so smart I suspect they would've instead tried to turn Lebron into a jump shooter which given the way things worked for him vs. Spurs in 07, Celtics in 08 and 10, and Mavs in 11 it probably would've worked. Lebron would've had problems vs. Rodman.

Edit: to your point about losing while playing less than goat level basketball...I don't think that's a requirement to be goat. No one can meet that requirement. Again, I can point to bad games from Lebron in 14, 15, 17, and 18 playoffs but I'm not going to hold those against him because he wasn't the reason they lost those series. Teams weren't inventing game plans to force Lebron into doing something he couldn't do and that's why he didn't play well and lost. The Pistons weren't doing that to MJ 88-90 either outside of the physical stuff. In the series you've presented (89) they were specifically trying to get the ball out of his hands because they didn't think the other Bulls could beat them. This is fundamentally different from what happened to Lebron in 07, 08, 10, and 11.

My point is that when a defender isn't close to an offensive player's size or athleticism it gives the offensive player a decided advantage. It's not like Barkley trying to go up against McHale where McHale's length gave him all sorts of trouble. Dumars, while considered a strong defender didn't really have the tools to match up with MJ the way some other other guys did or the way someone like Kawhi could match up with LeBron. Point being that the Pistons schemed team defense where they would double and triple him as soon as he got to the high post area. MJ's lack of consistent long range/3pt shooting was a weakness that they exploited. Plus his lack of post up game at that point compared to later on. It's not just that MJ's teammates weren't making shots, they limited his ability to shoot and were also holding him to terrible shooting games. I mean there's a million ways we can slice this but at the end of the day they did a great job of severely limiting what MJ did in 3 out of the 6 games. I think at the very least this needs to be acknowledged. It's not equivalent to what LeBron did against Orl in 09 when his team lost in 6 games and that was an Orl team that had the #1 rated defense in the league that year.

[jalengreen]

Somewhat unrelated but I wonder what the next RealGM GOAT voting will look like. LeBron was ranked #1 pretty soon after the 2020 Finals win - maybe he benefited from recency bias in that regard? Or maybe the voting gap will actually increase if he puts in a few more All-NBA seasons.

The general board had this pole as you were having your voting and is a larger sample size then the 20ish who voted. So no Jordan is realgm GOAT

Not sure what you mean by "you" there but yeah I meant the Player Comparisons' board ranking. Which I would prefer for multiple reasons despite the sample size difference

[twyzted]

It's clear he got better as a shooter in Miami and you can actually see what he was working on year-to-year.

LeBron's efg% in the playoffs on shots outside 15 feet from 2009-2020:

2009 49% on 11.1 FGA/G
2010 49% on 9.5 FGA/G
2011 46% 8 FGA/G
2012 36% on 7.7 FGA/G
2013 51% on 7.5 FGA/G
2014 53% on 8 FGA/G
2015 33% on 10.4 FGA/G
2016 49% on 6.6 FGA/G
2017 58% on 8 FGA/G
2018 49% on 8.8 FGA/G
2020 49% on 7.3 FGA/G

You said LeBron was easily schemed pre-2012 and consider his 1st title winning season as his big improvement. You mainly cite his improved jumper for this. Except numbers don't indicate this at all. LeBron's jumper was awful in the 2012 playoffs. In fact, numbers show LeBron's jumper saw no notable improvement in the playoffs after he joined Miami. There was 1 year (2017) where he went nuts and 2 years (2012, 2015) where he was awful. Around 50% the other 8 seasons otherwise, which is solid.

But hey, you aren't alone. A lot of people think LeBron "changed" after 2011. It's all narrative-driven BS though. Classic case of winning-bias. Reality is, he was winning because he played on far better teams compared to his initial Cleveland run. Not because he somehow took another step individually after 2 historical seasons already under his belt (2009 & 2010). 2 seasons that I consider superior to any he had in Miami.

As far as his 2011 Finals are concerned, again, I consider that to be a massive mental breakdown on his part as opposed to Dallas devising something special. From a standpoint of intent, that series had nothing in common with how he went down in 2009 and 2010.

2009 vs Orlando (1st in DRTG): 26 FGA + 16 FTA per game
2010 vs Boston (5th in DRTG): 19 FGA + 12 FTA
2011 vs Dallas (8th in DRTG): 15 FGA + 3.3 FTA

I see the 2011 Finals as a standalone event that is not reflective of anything else that happened in his career. The improvement he made the following season was mostly in his head. And that was essentially deciding "gee, I'm in the Finals again, maybe I should actually compete this time around?".

Where did you get those % from?

[IG2]

Where did you get those % from?

Just manually calculated them.

[VanWest82]

My point is that when a defender isn't close to an offensive player's size or athleticism it gives the offensive player a decided advantage. It's not like Barkley trying to go up against McHale where McHale's length gave him all sorts of trouble. Dumars, while considered a strong defender didn't really have the tools to match up with MJ the way some other other guys did or the way someone like Kawhi could match up with LeBron.

Or like when the Mavs switched Barea and Terry onto Lebron and he didn't know what to do...

Guys like Kawhi and Iggy were giving up at least as much size to Lebron as Dumars or Payton did to MJ.

Point being that the Pistons schemed team defense where they would double and triple him as soon as he got to the high post area. MJ's lack of consistent long range/3pt shooting was a weakness that they exploited. Plus his lack of post up game at that point compared to later on. It's not just that MJ's teammates weren't making shots, they limited his ability to shoot and were also holding him to terrible shooting games. I mean there's a million ways we can slice this but at the end of the day they did a great job of severely limiting what MJ did in 3 out of the 6 games. I think at the very least this needs to be acknowledged. It's not equivalent to what LeBron did against Orl in 09 when his team lost in 6 games and that was an Orl team that had the #1 rated defense in the league that year.

Ok so almost no one shot threes on volume back then and MJ was already one of the premier mid range shooters in the game by 89. Pistons absolutely did not exploit his lack of shooting. That's just nonsense.

You're saying he was severely limited in 3 of 6 games. I've argued his teammates were the ones limited in game 5. What's he supposed to do other than pass the ball out of double and triple teams? Scottie didn't play in game 6. Was Lebron severely limited in 2015 Finals too?? And we're only talking about one side of the floor here. Have you seen Isiah's numbers in the series?

I'm not arguing MJ was a perfect player because he wasn't but Pistons did not game plan MJ's weaknesses into a loss like what happened to Lebron.

[Cavsfansince84]

Or like when the Mavs switched Barea and Terry onto Lebron and he didn't know what to do...

Guys like Kawhi and Iggy were giving up at least as much size to Lebron as Dumars or Payton did to MJ.

Ok so almost no one shot threes on volume back then and MJ was already one of the premier mid range shooters in the game by 89. Pistons absolutely did not exploit his lack of shooting. That's just nonsense.

You're saying he was severely limited in 3 of 6 games. I've argued his teammates were the ones limited in game 5. What's he supposed to do other than pass the ball out of double and triple teams? Scottie didn't play in game 6. Was Lebron severely limited in 2015 Finals too?? And we're only talking about one side of the floor here. Have you seen Isiah's numbers in the series?

I'm not arguing MJ was a perfect player because he wasn't but Pistons did not game plan MJ's weaknesses into a loss like what happened to Lebron.

Don't agree on Iggy and Kawhi. They are both very strong and very athletic and Kawhi is close to LeBron's size with huge hands. I mean ffs, those are two of the best sf man to man defenders in the history of the nba. Dumars was a very good defender but not on their level as an athlete or defender. He was listed at 6-3 190 and I think that was probably very generous.

I'm not talking about MJ shooting 3's on volume(though guys were shooting them more by 89-90), there's a difference between shooting from 12-15 ft and a bit further out is what I'm saying. MJ was much more comfortable from that range than further out the way that Kobe was. Both are considered atg mid range shooters but MJ's range wasn't the same as Kobe's imo. At least not in that time frame. I'm not saying that his 89 Pistons series is exactly like LeBron's finals either. What I'm saying is that he was game planned for by a very good defensive team which was successful in greatly limiting his effectiveness in a 6 game series. That's all that I'm saying and I don't feel like you want to acknowledge that at all as though I'm just making stuff up because I'm hugely anti MJ when in reality I always had MJ ahead of LeBron up until last year and have a huge amount of respect for what he could do as a player. I mean I grew up watching him torch the Cavs over and over again. I just think there are narratives which persist today which aren't a fully accurate way of depicting him as a player. MJ still had growing to do as a player by 89(at age 26) just as LeBron did in 2011(at age 26).

[Cavsfansince84]

On a sidenote I decided to watch the 89 ecf game 1 and it was interesting to watch. The most annoying thing about it is I'd forgotten how rarely they showed the score on the screen back then. They'd go 10 min without showing it at all while the commentators might mention it once. The Bulls just barely hung on for a win after leading by 20 at the half. The Bulls mvps in the first half were actually Corzine and Cartwright, along with Hodges and MJ. Corzine had 12 pts a minute into the second qtr on 6-6 shooting with only 4 of those pts being easy set ups by MJ.
In the second half the Pistons just started executing the Bulls to death in the halfcourt. Their ability to instinctively know who should shoot it and find back door cutters for easy layups was on another level. Isiah seemed like he was in the twilight zone for the whole game in a bad way. The Pistons defense on MJ didn't actually seem that stifling despite him finishing 10-29. He wasn't being doubled that aggressively and tbh just missed a lot including a point blank layup. What stood out was the few times that Rodman took MJ on he really gave MJ fits. Bulls were very lucky to hold onto that win and MJ's play down the stretch was pretty shaky. Grant and Salley were both a comedy of errors in the short time they saw the court. Rodman's energy seemed key to the Pistons comeback(they got it to 1 and were down 3 with 30 sec left when they got called for an offensive foul).

[migya]

That's a fair video to bring up though that also had to do with friction between LeBron and Wade as well as LeBron's own coach not making adjustments. This all was factored into changes that Spoelstra made after 2011 and conversations between LeBron and Wade. I could also point out games MJ had against Det in 89 which are similar though where MJ essentially got game planned out of it and which led to Phil and his triangle coming in making it harder for teams to do that. Here are 5 games MJ had from the 89 ecf:

game 1: 10-29, 10-13, 11 reb, 4 ast, 32 pts
game 2: 9-20, 9-11, 4 reb, 4 ast, 27 pts
game 4: 5-15, 12-17, 2 reb, 4 ast, 23 pts
game 5: 4-8, 10-11, 5 reb, 9 ast, 18 pts
game 6: 13-26, 5-12, 4 reb, 13 ast, 8 tov, 32 pts

The only great game he had in that series was game 2 with 46 pts. All in all, that's a very bad series from MJ. In 1990 he had a better series but still struggled a lot in 2 of the games. This is almost never held against MJ though while with LeBron it's used as definitive proof that he wasn't ready to win a ring yet. That's an issue for me. The truth isn't so black and white and context needs to be used.

I don't see these series as the same at all. Those Pistons teams won (primarily) because NBA allowed them to physically assault the Bulls. That was the game plan. They're on record as that being the game plan. It's completely different from Spurs, Celtics, and Mavs game planning against the basketball related weaknesses in Lebron's game. MJ had no weaknesses 88-90. Averaging 30/6/5 on +2.4 rTS vs. an ATG Pistons defense is not a "very bad series from MJ."

I can point to a bunch of subpar playoff games Lebron had post 2011. So what? It's about how complete your game is and the reasons why you lost. Bulls never lost because of MJ. Lebron lost because his game was flawed.

if that pistons physical defense was such a issue why didnt it lead to better defensive results? not that they were bad, they were fantastic, but lebron played some equal or even better defenses by results and still is criticized for his efficiency in some of them (boston 2008 comes to mind)

That Pistons team was amazing defensively. Lebron never faced anything like that and the conditions Jordan had to go through.

[falcolombardi]

I don't see these series as the same at all. Those Pistons teams won (primarily) because NBA allowed them to physically assault the Bulls. That was the game plan. They're on record as that being the game plan. It's completely different from Spurs, Celtics, and Mavs game planning against the basketball related weaknesses in Lebron's game. MJ had no weaknesses 88-90. Averaging 30/6/5 on +2.4 rTS vs. an ATG Pistons defense is not a "very bad series from MJ."

I can point to a bunch of subpar playoff games Lebron had post 2011. So what? It's about how complete your game is and the reasons why you lost. Bulls never lost because of MJ. Lebron lost because his game was flawed.

if that pistons physical defense was such a issue why didnt it lead to better defensive results? not that they were bad, they were fantastic, but lebron played some equal or even better defenses by results and still is criticized for his efficiency in some of them (boston 2008 comes to mind)

That Pistons team was amazing defensively. Lebron never faced anything like that and the conditions Jordan had to go through.

numbers dont agree with that tho, as good as those pistons were defensively lebron has faced that or better

like the 2008 celtics

[LukaTheGOAT]

Here's my main issue with longevity / championship odds as it pertains to Lebron.

Prior to winning in 2012 he was a fatally flawed player as a #1 option. Simply put, his jumper just wasn't reliable. This fact reared it's head vs. Spurs in 07, Celtics in 08 and again in 10, and vs. Mavs in 11. I think it would've been the same story had Cavs advanced to play Lakers in 09.

I buy the argument that he was a championship quality player (and then some) in all of those years, just not as a #1 option. So if you're trying to compare those years vs. MJ it doesn't totally work even though it might look like it statistically. We might as well be comparing 2004 KG to MJ. Different player, same problem (i.e. probably can't win as #1).

This changes the entire context of Lebron's longevity advantage imo.

Kobe and Lebron playoff numbers between 08-10 against the same matchups.

Lebron vs the Celtics in 2008

26.7 pts (48 TS%), 7.6 assists, 6.4 rebounds

GameScore-17.5

Kobe Bryant vs the Celtics in 2008

25.7 pts (50.5 TS%), 5 assists, and 4.7 rebounds

GameScore-16.4


Lebron vs Magic in 2009

38.5 pts (59.1 TS%), 8 assists, 8.3 rebounds

GameScore-29.3

Kobe vs Magic in 2009

32.4 pts (52.5 TS%), 7.4 assists, 5.6 rebounds

GameScore-22.8



Lebron vs the Celtics in 2010 (*Note elbow injury)

26.8 pts (55.6 TS%), 7.2 assists, 9.3 rebounds

GameScore-22

Kobe Bryant vs the Celtics in 2010

28.6 pts (52.8 TS%), 3.9 assists, 8 rebounds

GameScore-18.7

Ignoring the defensive side of the ball, where we have plenty of season numbers that suggest Lebron was several standard deviations better than Kobe from 08-10 on defense (which matters a lot)...if Lebron wasn't good enough to be a #1 option and win during this period, then why does Kobe look worse by the numbers offensively, yet he was still able to win 2 championships in 2009 and 2010 as a #1 option? Whichever way you lean, it seems as if there is significant information to at least consider both Kobe and Lebron in at least the same tier offensively. Are we sure, Lebron wasn't good enough to win a championship as a #1?

They both played 13 games against the Celtics, each having a game 6 and a game 7 against them. The 08 Cavs actually put up a much better fight than the 08 Lakers did against the Celtics, which leads me to believe it isn't crazy to thing they were title contenders.

[migya]

if that pistons physical defense was such a issue why didnt it lead to better defensive results? not that they were bad, they were fantastic, but lebron played some equal or even better defenses by results and still is criticized for his efficiency in some of them (boston 2008 comes to mind)

That Pistons team was amazing defensively. Lebron never faced anything like that and the conditions Jordan had to go through.

numbers dont agree with that tho, as good as those pistons were defensively lebron has faced that or better

like the 2008 celtics

That puts doubt on "the numbers". Those Pistons were amassing defensively and in a high scoring era.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I can't believe we are really discussing comparisons of Lebron in 2010 against the Celtics and Jordan in 1996 against the Sonics. It's quite frankly ridiculous. Lebron took a 2-1 lead and then quit in that series while LOSING. Jordan took a 3-0 lead and then had a couple of bad shooting games and still WON the series. In what universe are those two similar? Lebron showed mental weakness and Jordan showed nothing of that sort.

As VanWest82 said, pre-2012 Lebron didn't even look necessarily capable of leading a team to a championship. That's not the GOAT standard. That's why seasons like 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 do close to nothing for Lebron as far as furthering his GOAT case. This is a guy who couldn't shoot outside of 3 feet, had no post game, and was mentally fragile coming apart in big moments. That last point literally made him the antithesis of Jordan.

so both started winning, took their foot off the gas then struggled later as the other team adapted but jordan had better teammates so he avoided defeat?

was 2 defeats not enough to wake up jordan? he still was limited in game 6 which was definitely not "leave your foot off the gas" time

Lebron QUIT in that series. He showed DEFEATIST body language. His team LOST.

Jordan just SHOT POORLY. He showed COMPETITIVE body language. His team WON.

I can't believe I have to spell it out.

Besides if Jordan putting up 27.3/5.3/4.2 on -0.8 rTS with 3.0 topg while playing good defense too in a series win against a 64-win team... is the worst series he ever had; then that clearly shows that this debate was never a debate to begin with.

MJ had black marks too. He played mediocre vs. the 1997 Hawks. That series doesn't look much different than LeBron vs the Celtics in 2010.

Jordan vs 97 Hawks: 27/10/5, .506 TS%, 21 Game Score
LeBron vs 10 Celtics: 27/9/7, .556 TS%, 22 Game Score

What about MJ's series vs the Heat in 1997? In a 5 game series he had 3 bad shooting games of 4-15 shooting, 11-31 shooting, and 9-35 shooting. Is 9-35 shooting any good?

How it can it be a black mark if you win the series? Seriously... The Bulls won both of those series in 5 games including quite a few blowouts. If those series are black marks than Lebron's 2013 Finals is a black mark and lots of other series where he won but played subpar statistically. That doesn't make sense. If you win it can't be a black mark.

Lebron vs the Celtics in 2010 (*Note elbow injury)

26.8 pts , 7.2 assists, 9.3 rebounds

2.2 steals, 1.3 blocks (2.6 steal %, 2.4 block %)

GameScore-22

Michael Jordan vs the Sonics in 96

27.3 pts, 4.2 assists, 5.3 rebounds

1.7 steals, 0.3 blocks (2.3 steal % 0.4 block %)

GameScore-18.5

I think it is crazy that Lebron quit and still played better than Jordan on offense and defense. In my mind, I think that is what makes Lebron better; he can wake up out of bed in a bad mood, and he doesn't even have try to be better than MJ.

[LukaTheGOAT]

On Lebron in the finals; His defense was below average quite often and the video below shows many examples of that in a whole finals series.

Watch on YouTube

Jordan never did that.

there is a problem with this argument

just because nobody has done a video of jordan defensive mistakes (or it has not gained traction, or you have not seen it) is not proof those didnt exist

i am sure there must be a recopilation of bad jordan plays in a finals somewhere, and if there is not it probably could easily be done

with highlighting (and lowlighthing) specific plays cherrh picked over hundreds (or thousand) of possesions in a series you can easily push may narrative.

i am sure you could pick jrue hollyday 20 worst defensive possesions out of 1000 in a series and make a 12 minutes video making him look bad

no player has weaknesses in a highlight video and no one is good in a lowlights video

if you kept track of said defensive mistakes, kept count, made sure they actually were mistakes (sometimes watching in live time is hard to know who actually messed up, is easy to misplace the Blame on the dude who got scored on by trying to contest or has to leave his own man open to help on another player and looks bad for it)

and proved that a player actually made mistakes in a higher proportion then that would be somethingh

otherwise is just cherrypicking

Jordan has had defensive lapses otherwise noone he has guarded would've ever scored, but he's never had a bad defensive series like this one by Lebron.

The below video by Thinking Basketball, which I think there was a thread on here a while ago, shows some examples of Jordan's defensive lapses, but is picking over a large sample spread, over many years.

Watch on YouTube

The guy who made the video of MJ's strengths and weaknesses rates Lebron's defense in at least 5 of his seasons as better than Jordan's very best season on defense.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

As for bad defensive series, Lebron has had plenty. 2017 finals from the video above is an excellent candidate. A post in response to that mentioned that 20 possessions were cherrypicked out of a 1000 but that isn't really the case. Considering the series was played at a pace of 100 that's around 500 defensive and offensive possessions per team across the five game series. Lebron played 212 out of 240 possible minutes so he's was on the floor for about 440 defensive possessions. However it's clear that Lebron probably wasn't even involved on defense in a lot of these possessions so the sample was much lower than this too. Maybe defensive 100-200 possessions in which Lebron was involved in any way? Anyways I watched the first 3 minutes of that video and there's already over 10 lapses by Lebron all from Game 1 so there is no way that there's only 20 plays there.

From player tracking on NBA.com we have Lebron's defensive numbers from the 2017 finals... and they are atrocious. This data doesn't even show how many times he got beat off the dribble leading to breakdowns that eventually led to made baskets like a few in the video. This is just the man defense. His matchups shot 36/64 (56.3%) from the field and 9/21 (42.9%) from 3pt range during the series. Given the Warriors' average shooting percentages of 47.5% from the field and 38.2% from 3pt range in the finals, it's clear that Lebron was a huge defensive liability. Which of course the eye test shows as well. Lebron's had a somewhat low defensive usage contesting 12.8 shots per game.

How about the 2014 finals? His matchups shot 20/35 (57.1%) from the field and 7/12 (58.3%) from 3pt range during the series. Despite the Spurs offensive brilliance in that series this was still much higher than their series averages again showing that Lebron was a liability. He had a very low defensive usage contesting 7 shots per game.

In fact, defensive usage for Lebron is generally low across all his series. He almost always seems to dodge guarding the most difficult matchups. If you look at all of his finals that we have tracking for (2014 to present) you won't come away thinking of Lebron as a great defender except in 2016. I would venture a guess that his 2009-2013 numbers are better but even in that span he had a few bad defensive series namely the 2009 ECF and 2011 finals. And my gut tells me that the 2012 finals were average.

The top 10 defensive postseasons between Lebron and MJ according to D-PIPM (in order):
07 LBJ
16 LBJ
91 MJ
10 LBJ
09 LBJ
12 LBJ
87 MJ
17 LBJ
14 LBJ
08 LBJ

[fanofthegreats]

I don't see these series as the same at all. Those Pistons teams won (primarily) because NBA allowed them to physically assault the Bulls. That was the game plan. They're on record as that being the game plan. It's completely different from Spurs, Celtics, and Mavs game planning against the basketball related weaknesses in Lebron's game. MJ had no weaknesses 88-90. Averaging 30/6/5 on +2.4 rTS vs. an ATG Pistons defense is not a "very bad series from MJ."

I can point to a bunch of subpar playoff games Lebron had post 2011. So what? It's about how complete your game is and the reasons why you lost. Bulls never lost because of MJ. Lebron lost because his game was flawed.

if that pistons physical defense was such a issue why didnt it lead to better defensive results? not that they were bad, they were fantastic, but lebron played some equal or even better defenses by results and still is criticized for his efficiency in some of them (boston 2008 comes to mind)

That Pistons team was amazing defensively. Lebron never faced anything like that and the conditions Jordan had to go through.

LeBron has faced much tougher competition on both sides of the ball than that team.

[LukaTheGOAT]

if that pistons physical defense was such a issue why didnt it lead to better defensive results? not that they were bad, they were fantastic, but lebron played some equal or even better defenses by results and still is criticized for his efficiency in some of them (boston 2008 comes to mind)

Because they weren't that level of dirty in the regular season. This is the same reason 92 Knicks were merely good defensively but then looked like world beaters in the playoffs. They upped the physicality.

Edit: check out what 88 Pistons (ranked 2nd in DRTG) did to the #1 Celtics offense which had a 115 ORTG in the regular season. Pistons held them to 101 in the playoffs. They were better in the post season because for whatever reason NBA decided it was ok to allow them to hurt people.

Larry Bird had bone spurs in 1988, which played a pretty big role in the Celtics struggling.

[LukaTheGOAT]

if that pistons physical defense was such a issue why didnt it lead to better defensive results? not that they were bad, they were fantastic, but lebron played some equal or even better defenses by results and still is criticized for his efficiency in some of them (boston 2008 comes to mind)

Because they weren't that level of dirty in the regular season. This is the same reason 92 Knicks were merely good defensively but then looked like world beaters in the playoffs. They upped the physicality.

Edit: check out what 88 Pistons (ranked 2nd in DRTG) did to the #1 Celtics offense which had a 115 ORTG in the regular season. Pistons held them to 101 in the playoffs. They were better in the post season because for whatever reason NBA decided it was ok to allow them to hurt people.

Okay, looking at PS rDRTG (so looking at the relative change of the offenses they went up against from regular season (RS) to postseason (PS).

The 2018 Warriors were a -7.9. Jordan played 2 teams that were comparable, the 88 Pistons (-8.1) and the 90 Pistons (-8.3).

Lebron vs the 2018 Warriors (with a damaged hand after game 1)

34 pts (62 TS%), 10 assists, and 8.5 rebounds

GameScore-28.3

Jordan vs the 1988 Pistons

27.4 pts (54.9TS%), 4.6 assists, and 8.8 rebounds.

GameScore-20.4

Jordan vs the 1990 Pistons

32.1 pts (56.6TS%), 6.3 assists, and 7.1 rebounds

GameScore-24.8

[LukaTheGOAT]

That Pistons team was amazing defensively. Lebron never faced anything like that and the conditions Jordan had to go through.

numbers dont agree with that tho, as good as those pistons were defensively lebron has faced that or better

like the 2008 celtics

That puts doubt on "the numbers". Those Pistons were amassing defensively and in a high scoring era.

We can simply just their defensive rating relative to their league environment, which is called rDTRG, and they don't even come out as a top 80 defensive team of all-time based on RS performance.

[falcolombardi]

Here's my main issue with longevity / championship odds as it pertains to Lebron.

Prior to winning in 2012 he was a fatally flawed player as a #1 option. Simply put, his jumper just wasn't reliable. This fact reared it's head vs. Spurs in 07, Celtics in 08 and again in 10, and vs. Mavs in 11. I think it would've been the same story had Cavs advanced to play Lakers in 09.

I buy the argument that he was a championship quality player (and then some) in all of those years, just not as a #1 option. So if you're trying to compare those years vs. MJ it doesn't totally work even though it might look like it statistically. We might as well be comparing 2004 KG to MJ. Different player, same problem (i.e. probably can't win as #1).

This changes the entire context of Lebron's longevity advantage imo.

Kobe and Lebron playoff numbers between 08-10 against the same matchups.

Lebron vs the Celtics in 2008

26.7 pts (48 TS%), 7.6 assists, 6.4 rebounds

GameScore-17.5

Kobe Bryant vs the Celtics in 2008

25.7 pts (50.5 TS%), 5 assists, and 4.7 rebounds

GameScore-16.4


Lebron vs Magic in 2009

38.5 pts (59.1 TS%), 8 assists, 8.3 rebounds

GameScore-29.3

Kobe vs Magic in 2009

32.4 pts (52.5 TS%), 7.4 assists, 5.6 rebounds

GameScore-22.8



Lebron vs the Celtics in 2010 (*Note elbow injury)

26.8 pts (55.6 TS%), 7.2 assists, 9.3 rebounds

GameScore-22

Kobe Bryant vs the Celtics in 2010

28.6 pts (52.8 TS%), 3.9 assists, 8 rebounds

GameScore-18.7

Ignoring the defensive side of the ball, where we have plenty of season numbers that suggest Lebron was several standard deviations better than Kobe from 08-10 on defense (which matters a lot)...if Lebron wasn't good enough to be a #1 option and win during this period, then why does Kobe look worse by the numbers offensively, yet he was still able to win 2 championships in 2009 and 2010 as a #1 option? Whichever way you lean, it seems as if there is significant information to at least consider both Kobe and Lebron in at least the same tier offensively. Are we sure, Lebron wasn't good enough to win a championship as a #1?

They both played 13 games against the Celtics, each having a game 6 and a game 7 against them. The 08 Cavs actually put up a much better fight than the 08 Lakers did against the Celtics, which leads me to believe it isn't crazy to thing they were title contenders.

this i agree with wholeheartedly, just because the lebron of 2010 or 2008 was not as good as other versions doesnt make those seasons bad, they are still absolutely great seasons, specially 2010

[VanWest82]

Kobe and Lebron playoff numbers between 08-10 against the same matchups.

Spoiler:

Lebron vs the Celtics in 2008

26.7 pts (48 TS%), 7.6 assists, 6.4 rebounds

GameScore-17.5

Kobe Bryant vs the Celtics in 2008

25.7 pts (50.5 TS%), 5 assists, and 4.7 rebounds

GameScore-16.4


Lebron vs Magic in 2009

38.5 pts (59.1 TS%), 8 assists, 8.3 rebounds

GameScore-29.3

Kobe vs Magic in 2009

32.4 pts (52.5 TS%), 7.4 assists, 5.6 rebounds

GameScore-22.8



Lebron vs the Celtics in 2010 (*Note elbow injury)

26.8 pts (55.6 TS%), 7.2 assists, 9.3 rebounds

GameScore-22

Kobe Bryant vs the Celtics in 2010

28.6 pts (52.8 TS%), 3.9 assists, 8 rebounds

GameScore-18.7

Larry Bird vs. Lakers in 85 Finals

23.8 pts (52.7% TS), 5.0 assists, 8.8 rebounds

GameScore-19.6

Alex English vs. Lakers in 85 WCF

30.3 pts (57.3% TS), 4.3 assists, 6.5 rebounds

GameScore-22.3

Alex English > Larry Bird as a #1 option on a title team. Who knew?


Patrick Ewing vs. Bulls in 92 playoffs

22.1 pts (52.4% TS), 2.4 assists, 11.1 rebounds

GameScore-15.9

Brad Daugherty vs. Bulls in 92 playoffs

17.7 pts (55.4% TS), 4.2 assists, 10.2 rebounds

GameScore-15.7

Brad Daugherty was the same tier player as Patrick Ewing!


Dirk Nowitzki vs. Suns in 06 playoffs

28.0 pts (57.7% TS), 3.5 assists, 13.2 rebounds

GameScore-24.3

Elton Brand vs. Suns in 06 playoffs

30.9 pts (62.8% TS), 4.3 assists, 10.4 rebounds

GameScore-28.7

I always knew Elton was better than prime Dirk!!

...

Needless to say, I'm not a fan of the way you're using individual stats vs. common opponents void of any/all context. What would Kobe's stats have looked like if he had the ball in his hands 90% of the time like Lebron? But honestly who cares because that wasn't even the point. The Celtics weren't trying to force Kobe into taking jumpers because he couldn't shoot. If anything they were trapping him to get the ball out of his hands because they were terrified of him shooting (which he did anyway because he's insane. Kobe was barely a #1 caliber guy on a title team). You can't just use individual stats to hand wave away Lebron's (self-professed) offensive deficiencies pre-2012.