Retro Player of the Year Project

[Silver Bullet]

^ There's also omitted variable bias ...

[Gongxi]

But that doesn't have to do with variables that you make up!!

[Silver Bullet]

But that doesn't have to do with variables that you make up!!

Actually it does - when there is omitted variable bias, you usually go with proxies to correct for it.

Point being - that ure wrong and I'm right.

[Sedale Threatt]

It's not in my head - any one who's ever played basketball knows this - When your playing on the court, sometimes this one guy comes in and suddenly everyone is getting layups and open jumpers.... I mean, your one of those basketball on paper guys - zero understanding of the game...

But as Charles Barkley said so eloquently on the phenomenon of "making teammates better":

Magic got to make James Worthy and Kareem better. Michael got to make Scottie Pippen better. I got to make Shelton Jones better.

Barkley pulls a lot of stuff out of his ass, but there's a lot of wisdom in that statement.

[Optimism Prime]

Point being - that ure wrong and I'm right.

SB, I'm sorry--but quotes like this are rapidly killing my enthusiasm for this project. Can you try to reign in your innate superiority over the rest of us mere mortals just a TEENSY bit? Thanks.

[Silver Bullet]

Point being - that ure wrong and I'm right.

SB, I'm sorry--but quotes like this are rapidly killing my enthusiasm for this project. Can you try to reign in your innate superiority over the rest of us mere mortals just a TEENSY bit? Thanks.

not a problem.

[Silver Bullet]

It's not in my head - any one who's ever played basketball knows this - When your playing on the court, sometimes this one guy comes in and suddenly everyone is getting layups and open jumpers.... I mean, your one of those basketball on paper guys - zero understanding of the game...

But as Charles Barkley said so eloquently on the phenomenon of "making teammates better":

Magic got to make James Worthy and Kareem better. Michael got to make Scottie Pippen better. I got to make Shelton Jones better.

Barkley pulls a lot of stuff out of his ass, but there's a lot of wisdom in that statement.

Yea, I'm not focusing on making team mates better though - I'm just saying box score stats don't tell the whole story. Two people can put up the exact same stats and have totally different impacts on the game. I'm not sure everything in basketball is quantifiable - Gongxi doesn't agree.

[Optimism Prime]

It's not in my head - any one who's ever played basketball knows this - When your playing on the court, sometimes this one guy comes in and suddenly everyone is getting layups and open jumpers.... I mean, your one of those basketball on paper guys - zero understanding of the game...

But as Charles Barkley said so eloquently on the phenomenon of "making teammates better":

Magic got to make James Worthy and Kareem better. Michael got to make Scottie Pippen better. I got to make Shelton Jones better.

Barkley pulls a lot of stuff out of his ass, but there's a lot of wisdom in that statement.

Yea, I'm not focusing on making team mates better though - I'm just saying box score stats don't tell the whole story. Two people can put up the exact same stats and have totally different impacts on the game. I'm not sure everything in basketball is quantifiable - Gongxi doesn't agree.

Valid point, yes, but you're exaggerating to make it. Like others, I'd be hard-pressed to imagine how someone with a triple-50 (your own example) would NOT be helping his team win. Keep in mind: that's more rebounds than the best rebounding team averaged, and twice as many assists as the best assist-team averaged... explain to me how you can lose with a game like that without resorting to statements like "zero understanding of the game"?

[Sedale Threatt]

It's not in my head - any one who's ever played basketball knows this - When your playing on the court, sometimes this one guy comes in and suddenly everyone is getting layups and open jumpers.... I mean, your one of those basketball on paper guys - zero understanding of the game...

But as Charles Barkley said so eloquently on the phenomenon of "making teammates better":

Magic got to make James Worthy and Kareem better. Michael got to make Scottie Pippen better. I got to make Shelton Jones better.

Barkley pulls a lot of stuff out of his ass, but there's a lot of wisdom in that statement.

Yea, I'm not focusing on making team mates better though - I'm just saying box score stats don't tell the whole story. Two people can put up the exact same stats and have totally different impacts on the game. I'm not sure everything in basketball is quantifiable - Gongxi doesn't agree.

I generally agree, but look at the scenario you painted about one guy magically lifting the play of everyone around him.

It's a lot easier to do that with good teammates then not, and for the majority of his career Garnett has had a pretty underwhelming supporting cast.

I'm as KG-saturated as anyone at this point, and I will always believe Duncan was a better player. But any failures he had in Minnesota had a hell of a lot more to do with the other 11 guys on the roster, not him.

Indeed, a lot of those things that aren't quantifiable -- intangibles like leadership, team work, selflessness -- are areas where Garnett gets a lot of credit.

[Silver Bullet]

But as Charles Barkley said so eloquently on the phenomenon of "making teammates better":

Magic got to make James Worthy and Kareem better. Michael got to make Scottie Pippen better. I got to make Shelton Jones better.

Barkley pulls a lot of stuff out of his ass, but there's a lot of wisdom in that statement.

Yea, I'm not focusing on making team mates better though - I'm just saying box score stats don't tell the whole story. Two people can put up the exact same stats and have totally different impacts on the game. I'm not sure everything in basketball is quantifiable - Gongxi doesn't agree.

Valid point, yes, but you're exaggerating to make it. Like others, I'd be hard-pressed to imagine how someone with a triple-50 (your own example) would NOT be helping his team win. Keep in mind: that's more rebounds than the best rebounding team averaged, and twice as many assists as the best assist-team averaged... explain to me how you can lose with a game like that without resorting to statements like "zero understanding of the game"?

Yeah. I have to agree - 50-50-50 was a massive exagerration...

How about 30-20-5 ... I've seen Garnett put up that line and I've seen Shaq put up that line... and maybe even Bosh came close... and the impact in all three scenarios is totally different.

As far as "zero understanding of the game" - that's my bad, and it's just Gongxi, he can come across as really arrogant (as can I, I'm sure), but his responses are just... ummm... prudish -

As far as Garnett is concerned - well I have seen game after game after game, he shies away from the ball in crucial moments - that is just my observation...
And until he got big time pressure players in Peirce, Allen and House - he didn't win anything.

He's a softie -
1. He's a jump shooting big man - they always fail in the crunch, from Robinson to Nowitzki to KG to Bosh... I'll never put these guys ahead of comparable back to the basket men. I do put Robinson ahead of Olajuwon, because I don't think they were comparable, I think the Admiral was miles ahead.

2. You can see it in the way he tries to bully around small white guys, but backs off when someone his own size tries to take him on. I mean, look at this video - It's probably made by a hater, but don't let the messenger turn you off from the message - the guy bullies guys like Caledron, Bayless, Bonner and Q-Rich... but then runs like a pussy when confronted like someone like McDyess or Maxiell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FASClJTnJ4I

3. He plays defense like a guard - I mean, people keep saying you can't compare the impact of a big vs the impact of a small guy, but he doesn't play D like a big. And I'm not saying he's not one of the greatest defenders of all time... but he's a shooting guard in a center's body. There is no player I dislike more in the NBA than Chris Bosh - the perfect example of someone who puts up empty box score stats. And KG to me, is just a glorified Bosh.
I mean, 5 years from now, if Bosh goes and signs with the Pistons and ends up winning a couple of rings - you guys will be re-writing history again... saying how he had no help in Toronto and as soon as he got a little bit of help, he won. But he's a lame big who plays like a girl. If tommorow he gets a "second options" like a slightly past his prime Dwyane Wade and Derrick Rose - that doesn't mean, all of a sudden he turned into some crunch time super hero.

[Optimism Prime]

Yea, I'm not focusing on making team mates better though - I'm just saying box score stats don't tell the whole story. Two people can put up the exact same stats and have totally different impacts on the game. I'm not sure everything in basketball is quantifiable - Gongxi doesn't agree.

Valid point, yes, but you're exaggerating to make it. Like others, I'd be hard-pressed to imagine how someone with a triple-50 (your own example) would NOT be helping his team win. Keep in mind: that's more rebounds than the best rebounding team averaged, and twice as many assists as the best assist-team averaged... explain to me how you can lose with a game like that without resorting to statements like "zero understanding of the game"?

Yeah. I have to agree - 50-50-50 was a massive exagerration...

How about 30-20-5 ... I've seen Garnett put up that line and I've seen Shaq put up that line... and maybe even Bosh came close... and the impact in all three scenarios is totally different.

As far as "zero understanding of the game" - that's my bad, and it's just Gongxi, he can come across as really arrogant (as can I, I'm sure), but his responses are just... ummm... prudish -

As far as Garnett is concerned - well I have seen game after game after game, he shies away from the ball in crucial moments - that is just my observation...
And until he got big time pressure players in Peirce, Allen and House - he didn't win anything.

He's a softie -
1. He's a jump shooting big man - they always fail in the crunch, from Robinson to Nowitzki to KG to Bosh... I'll never put these guys ahead of comparable back to the basket men. I do put Robinson ahead of Olajuwon, because I don't think they were comparable, I think the Admiral was miles ahead.

2. You can see it in the way he tries to bully around small white guys, but backs off when someone his own size tries to take him on. I mean, look at this video - It's probably made by a hater, but don't let the messenger turn you off from the message - the guy bullies guys like Caledron, Bayless, Bonner and Q-Rich... but then runs like a pussy when confronted like someone like McDyess or Maxiell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FASClJTnJ4I

3. He plays defense like a guard - I mean, people keep saying you can't compare the impact of a big vs the impact of a small guy, but he doesn't play D like a big. And I'm not saying he's not one of the greatest defenders of all time... but he's a shooting guard in a center's body. There is no player I dislike more in the NBA than Chris Bosh - the perfect example of someone who puts up empty box score stats. And KG to me, is just a glorified Bosh.
I mean, 5 years from now, if Bosh goes and signs with the Pistons and ends up winning a couple of rings - you guys will be re-writing history again... saying how he had no help in Toronto and as soon as he got a little bit of help, he won. But he's a lame big who plays like a girl. If tommorow he gets a "second options" like a slightly past his prime Dwyane Wade and Derrick Rose - that doesn't mean, all of a sudden he turned into some crunch time super hero.

Fun fact:

Garnett's record when putting up 30/20/5: 5-0.
Shaq's record when putting up 30/20/5: 4-1.
Barkley's record when putting up 30/20/5: 6-2.
Duncan's record when putting up 30/20/5: 2-4.

So... the guy who has the least impact by putting up a 30-20-5, in your eyes... has... the best record in those games?

[Silver Bullet]

Well that doesn't tell the whole story - 4 of KG's games were in the regular season and only 1 in the post-season. These include 05 Kings without Webber with Bibby and Bobby Jackson shooting a combined 10 for 35, against the Grizzlies against rookie Gasol and against the 02 Warriors .... 2 legit games out of 5...

Whereas Shaq - Well conference finals game 6 against the 06 Bulls, must win game 4 against the 03 Wolves in the first round, game 1 of the NBA Finals against the sixers, against the 00 sacramento kings at thier peak and against the 03 Spurs...

Moreover, he's only done in twice in the regular season vs 3 times in the playoffs -

So yeah - I stand by what I said... I think KG bullies on weaker opponents and plays smaller than his size and stats would indicate.

[NO-KG-AI]

I love the part about how all jumpshooting bigs aren't better than back to the basket bigs, except David Robinson, the one he loves. In the same breath, you'll take Kobe over LeBron, Wade, or Jordan, and he's clearly not close in getting to the rim, or in scoring efficiently

I like when KG gets into things with Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, David West, Zaza, or any other big guy, that gets ignored. Garnett picks at everyone, they don't all flip because most have been in the league long enough to not cry about it like Calderon.

KG isn't trying to fight anyone, I dunno why people can't see that by now.

KG plays defense like a guard, but anchors absolutely dominant defenses.

I wonder how things are gonna get explained away this year if the Celtics move on. Orlando beats Boston in 7 last year with Hedo and Rafer alston, now they replace Alston with Jameer Nelson and Hedo with Vince Carter(your clutch superhero!!) and the Celtics get KG back and are up 2-0 on the road.

Oh wait, Celtics got Rasheed, one of your favorites, so he'll get the credit

You bring up stats, then when your stats get proved wrong, moving of the goalposts again.

Just stick to having your "different" opinions and stop trying to justify them, because you're making everyone in the project lose more and more interest.

[Silver Bullet]

I love the part about how all jumpshooting bigs aren't better than back to the basket bigs, except David Robinson, the one he loves. In the same breath, you'll take Kobe over LeBron, Wade, or Jordan, and he's clearly not close in getting to the rim, or in scoring efficiently

I like when KG gets into things with Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, David West, Zaza, or any other big guy, that gets ignored. Garnett picks at everyone, they don't all flip because most have been in the league long enough to not cry about it like Calderon.

KG isn't trying to fight anyone, I dunno why people can't see that by now.

KG plays defense like a guard, but anchors absolutely dominant defenses.

I wonder how things are gonna get explained away this year if the Celtics move on. Orlando beats Boston in 7 last year with Hedo and Rafer alston, now they replace Alston with Jameer Nelson and Hedo with Vince Carter(your clutch superhero!!) and the Celtics get KG back and are up 2-0 on the road.

Oh wait, Celtics got Rasheed, one of your favorites, so he'll get the credit

You bring up stats, then when your stats get proved wrong, moving of the goalposts again.

Just stick to having your "different" opinions and stop trying to justify them, because you're making everyone in the project lose more and more interest.

Kobe is not a big - neither are Jordan, Lebron or Wade -
I said back to the basket big - and you're bringing up irrelevant people...

And why are people losing interest ? Because I'm criticizing Garnett ? Isn't that the whole point of the project -

And Carter is not my clutch super hero - I don't even think he's all that clutch...

I don't understand why you are bringing up stuff from the Celtics, when I think the 08 Celtics are one of the better teams in history -

You're the guy who thinks Garnett single handedly lead to the Celtics to victory last night - I mean those are not the kind of statements that are going to buy you any sort of cache anywhere.

[NO-KG-AI]

That's the point, you see what you want to see. Whenever KG is winning, you think it's the best team of all time, and his teams that win 50 games are underrated.

Yea, we all underrate his supporting casts in Minnesota but you.

People are losing interest because of the wild things you say, and your holier than thou attitude. Like the 30/20/5 thing, where you were showed to be totally wrong.


Anyway, I'm taking this totally off topic, but all of this is going to come full surface again with David Robinson Vs. Hakeem, so I'll just let everyone else handle it.

[Silver Bullet]

That's the point, you see what you want to see. Whenever KG is winning, you think it's the best team of all time, and his teams that win 50 games are underrated.

Yea, we all underrate his supporting casts in Minnesota but you.

People are losing interest because of the wild things you say, and your holier than thou attitude. Like the 30/20/5 thing, where you were showed to be totally wrong.


Anyway, I'm taking this totally off topic, but all of this is going to come full surface again with David Robinson Vs. Hakeem, so I'll just let everyone else handle it.

No it's not - Robinson was better at literally everything....

Even after you account for his failures, he was as good as Hakeem.... therein lies the difference..

And how was I shown to be totally wrong on the 30-20-5 thing ? You're just making stuff up now...

Anyway, time to move on.... there's no point in arguing this with you, since you are even more biased than drza when it comes to KG.

[NO-KG-AI]

But still less biased than you are. For instance, KG wouldn't have been in my top 2 for 2008.

You on the otherhand, you find some excuse to have him lowered, particularly below Kobe, no matter the circumstance.

You said KG can get 30-20-5 and not have the impact of other guys while getting it, yet he has the best record when he has it, on the worst teams

[Gongxi]

Wait wait wait: is SB's crusade against statistics (except when they're in his favor) all rooted in playing down Garnett? That's too cute!

I assumed it was to play up Kobe, but this is way more interesting.

[Silver Bullet]

Wait wait wait: is SB's crusade against statistics (except when they're in his favor) all rooted in playing down Garnett? That's too cute!

I assumed it was to play up Kobe, but this is way more interesting.

to play down Garnett and play up Duncan, Nash, Iverson, Kidd, past his prime Shaq - guys of that ilk.

And I've been lazy and haven't updated my standings, but I've only voted for Kobe at 1 twice out of 11 seasons and left him out of my top 5 twice so far.

EDIT: And I'm not against statistics - I'm against using statistics as a be all end all - Some players are better than their stats ala Nash, Bowen, Varejao, Parker, Ginobili, Kidd, Duncan etc. and some are worse than their stats ala Bosh, Brand, SAR, Francis, Marbury etc.

[ElGee]

Wait wait wait: is SB's crusade against statistics (except when they're in his favor) all rooted in playing down Garnett? That's too cute!

I assumed it was to play up Kobe, but this is way more interesting.

to play down Garnett and play up Duncan, Nash, Iverson, Kidd, past his prime Shaq - guys of that ilk.

And I've been lazy and haven't updated my standings, but I've only voted for Kobe at 1 twice out of 11 seasons and left him out of my top 5 twice so far.

EDIT: And I'm not against statistics - I'm against using statistics as a be all end all - Some players are better than their stats ala Nash, Bowen, Varejao, Parker, Ginobili, Kidd, Duncan etc. and some are worse than their stats ala Bosh, Brand, SAR, Francis, Marbury etc.

You do have him second like 6 times.

How many years did Kevin Garnett crack your top 5? Two? I suppose that's cute.