2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[ceiling raiser]

I'm thinking...

1) LeBron
2) Durant
3) Paul
4) George
5) Griffin

But I'm not sure if I can justify PG at the 4 spot...I really should replace him with Love or LMA.

[PaulieWal]

I'm thinking...

1) LeBron
2) Durant
3) Paul
4) George
5) Griffin

But I'm not sure if I can justify PG at the 4 spot...I really should replace him with Love or LMA.

There's no way I am putting PG at the 4 after the ECF. Even in game 6 he was allowed to "stat-pad" but really he had 1 point at the half when the game was over. PG is an elite defensive talent and okay offensive player. That still makes for a great 2 way player but I can't put him ahead of Russ.

[HeartBreakKid]

George hasn't had a chance at my top 5 for months now.

[ceiling raiser]

I'm thinking...

1) LeBron
2) Durant
3) Paul
4) George
5) Griffin

But I'm not sure if I can justify PG at the 4 spot...I really should replace him with Love or LMA.

There's no way I am putting PG at the 4 after the ECF. Even in game 6 he was allowed to "stat-pad" but really he had 1 point at the half when the game was over. PG is an elite defensive talent and okay offensive player. That still makes for a great 2 way player but I can't put him ahead of Russ.

How would you rank:

WB
George
Curry
LMA
Dwight
Love

?

[PaulieWal]

I'm thinking...

1) LeBron
2) Durant
3) Paul
4) George
5) Griffin

But I'm not sure if I can justify PG at the 4 spot...I really should replace him with Love or LMA.

There's no way I am putting PG at the 4 after the ECF. Even in game 6 he was allowed to "stat-pad" but really he had 1 point at the half when the game was over. PG is an elite defensive talent and okay offensive player. That still makes for a great 2 way player but I can't put him ahead of Russ.

How would you rank:

WB
George
Curry
LMA
Dwight
Love

?

WB
Curry/Dwight
LMA
PG
Love

I am probably not as high on PG as some. I think he is a top 10-12 player in the league but he got over-hyped after that insane start. He is still a good two-way player but I wouldn't want him as a #1 option on my team.

Edit: BTW, WB/Curry/Dwight in this case are more like 1a, 1b, and 1c. You can have either of those players as #1 out of those players and I wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

[HeartBreakKid]

You'd want Westbrook as the #1 option on your team?

[PaulieWal]

You'd want Westbrook as the #1 option on your team?

Probably not but if it's between him and PG I will take RW.

[JordansBulls]

I'm thinking...

1) LeBron
2) Durant
3) Paul
4) George
5) Griffin

But I'm not sure if I can justify PG at the 4 spot...I really should replace him with Love or LMA.

Durant was significantly better in the season in a much tougher conference.

[PaulieWal]

I'm thinking...

1) LeBron
2) Durant
3) Paul
4) George
5) Griffin

But I'm not sure if I can justify PG at the 4 spot...I really should replace him with Love or LMA.

Durant was significantly better in the season in a much tougher conference.

Give it a rest. KD wasn't even the best player on his team in the playoffs arguably. He was better than LeBron in the RS but not "significantly better".

[ardee]

At this point...

1/2. Durant/LeBron (complete tossup, a strong Finals from LeBron would give him no. 1 probably)
3. Paul
4. Love
5. Griffin

Westbrook could still make the top 5 as I think about it, an absolutely terrific Playoffs by him. Curry had a great regular season but his Playoffs were worse than expected. Melo is a phenomenal candidate, but with such a strong field he just loses out.

[Dr Positivity]

George's offensive stats aren't top 5 but his combination of defense and spacing is so valuable on its own. And as for his stats he still produced high volume numbers 22pt 3.5-4 ast in a system that's hardly nerd friendly. The Pacers team results in regular season and playoffs for the good but not great talent around him (no other outright all-star) is impressive to me as well. When building a champion team I'd only rather have LBJ Durant and CP before him atm. Other than that give me the best wing defender who hits 3s and can handle high offensive usage

[sp6r=underrated]

George's offensive stats aren't top 5 but his combination of defense and spacing is so valuable on its own. And as for his stats he still produced high volume numbers 22pt 3.5-4 ast in a system that's hardly nerd friendly. The Pacers team results in regular season and playoffs for the good but not great talent around him (no other outright all-star) is impressive to me as well. When building a champion team I'd only rather have LBJ Durant and CP before him atm. Other than that give me the best wing defender who hits 3s and can handle high offensive usage

This has nothing to do with George but is focused on the Pacers: Are you really impressed with the Pacers performance in the post-season?

In the first round they were basically played to a draw by an Atlanta Hawks team that is basically a lottery team.

In the second round they outplayed the Wizard by a small margin. The Wizards this year performed at the level of an 8 seed.

In the conference finals they were convincingly smoked by Miami. Miami is a great club but they aren't as good as last year. Brooklyn actually gave Miami a better go of it. The only reason the series went 6 is because of the absurd game 5 officiating.

It seems unlikely they would have made it out of the first round if the conferences were balanced based on how they finished the season. They pretty clearly played below their talent level in two of the three series and the 2nd half of the RS.

[mopper8]

George's offensive stats aren't top 5 but his combination of defense and spacing is so valuable on its own. And as for his stats he still produced high volume numbers 22pt 3.5-4 ast in a system that's hardly nerd friendly. The Pacers team results in regular season and playoffs for the good but not great talent around him (no other outright all-star) is impressive to me as well. When building a champion team I'd only rather have LBJ Durant and CP before him atm. Other than that give me the best wing defender who hits 3s and can handle high offensive usage

This has nothing to do with George but is focused on the Pacers: Are you really impressed with the Pacers performance in the post-season?

In the first round they were basically played to a draw by an Atlanta Hawks team that is basically a lottery team.

In the second round they outplayed the Wizard by a small margin. The Wizards this year performed at the level of an 8 seed.

In the conference finals they were convincingly smoked by Miami. Miami is a great club but they aren't as good as last year. Brooklyn actually gave Miami a better go of it. The only reason the series went 6 is because of the absurd game 5 officiating.

It seems unlikely they would have made it out of the first round if the conferences were balanced based on how they finished the season. They pretty clearly played below their talent level in two of the three series and the 2nd half of the RS.

And to bring it back to George, dude has a really nice shot which he can get going at times, but a shaky handle, very few moves, no post-game to speak of...when used optimally he's going to be spending a lot of time off-ball and can disappear for long stretches because if the shot isn't falling, he doesn't have any other tool to use in his toolbelt. I just don't see this guy as top-5 yet.

[sp6r=underrated]

And to bring it back to George, dude has a really nice shot which he can get going at times, but a shaky handle, very few moves, no post-game to speak of...when used optimally he's going to be spending a lot of time off-ball and can disappear for long stretches because if the shot isn't falling, he doesn't have any other tool to use in his toolbelt. I just don't see this guy as top-5 yet.

Yup, I think the ceiling for George as a player is in the 7-15 range rather than a true top 5 talent. He has some real offensive limitations which you correctly described.

Indiana would actually have a better offense if they didn't try to force points to George. Paul George as a 20 ppg scorer reminds me of the 76ers trying to force Iggy into the role of a high volume scorer last decade. Doug Collins to his credit realized Iggy shouldn't be shooting that much and lowered his volume. Collins understood your offense can improve by not trying to create a 20 ppg when you don't have one and that you can be an excellent player in this league without scoring at a high volume.

Hopefully, Indiana figures that out soon.

[Doctor MJ]

Voting thread is up but locked. Continue the discussion here, the other is just meant to announce the upcoming vote.

PM to ask for a vote.

[parapooper]

I don't think Paul George deserves that 3rd spot.

I would put either Curry or Griffin there.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3/4. Curry/Griffin
5. CP

I think I'm with this for now. I guess its tough to change now with only Lebron left.

Would your list in 2010 have Kobe#1 when Lebron lost despite the superior stats? Same here with Durant having superior numbers but losing to superior team instead of inferior team.


And yes I am drunk for now. But if you believe this is me talking normal you can accept. If not ignore!!!

Durant doesn't even have superior stats, if you look at the entire 2013-14 year, which this thread is about, then LeBron has a higher PER now than Durant, with a bigger gap than Durant had in the RS. And LeBron was already ahead in some stats (RAPM and similar stuff) even after just the RS.
LeBron's statistical gap on Kobe in 2010 was roughly the size of gap Durant had on Kyle Lowry this year. Plus LeBron had better stats against the 2010 Celtics than Kobe

[Doctor MJ]

So, my thoughts updated after the Finals:

The #1 spot between Durant & LeBron remains very much in play for me. Unlike some others here I had Durant over LeBron in the regular season by a clear margin. In the playoffs of course LeBron's had the lead by a clear margin, and while in principle I favor the playoffs as the acid test, the playoffs aren't over. It's going to come down to how LeBron does against the Spurs. Granted, I'm expecting that to be enough for him to win out.

Steph Curry remains my clear #3 choice. I'm seeing others list either Chris Paul or Blake Griffin for that spot, which is of course part of why neither is likely to best Curry for me who led a team with a major injury to basically a draw against the Paul/Griffin team.

I could see someone maybe being able to sway me on Paul given that injuries are part of the issue there, but not Griffin. With Griffin's candidacy I keep thinking about Kevin Love. To me Curry's edge over Love is how tough it is to stop Curry's impact no matter the pressure you put on any place on the court, and generally this is the advantage of backcourt players vs frontcourt players.

And of course, Griffin is a front court player too. I'd really like to see a convincing argument that our concerns about Love don't also apply to Griffin. Or put another way: With a more reasonable team context, I'm not at all convinced that Love can't do great things on a contender.

These remain the 6 main guys I'm thinking of.

I see some listing Paul George, who was indeed a guy in my Top 5 earlier in the season. Indy bounced back from their late season slide to get to the ECF...but they didn't have to beat anyone serious to get there, and while they looked dangerous at times against Miami, they looked less dangerous than they did in the past.

Russell Westbrook was certainly everywhere in the Spurs series, and his greater salience than Durant is a big part of Durant's issue as a POY candidate. Had OKC won that series I'd have seriously considered him for my Top 5, and maybe I should anyway. The thing I just can't get out of my head is that OKC should be better than they are given the talent they have. I understand that you can argue we should attribute a good chunk of Westbrook's mistakes back to the coaching, but that doesn't mean we credit a player with something we didn't do.

In an alternate universe where Durant got injured this year, I could see having Westbrook high on my list here, but Westbrook got hurt, the Thunder still looked good, Durant put up GOAT-level numbers, and when Westbrook came back the team didn't have a serious lift. The story with Westbrook's accomplishments to this point remains that he's supposed to be helping Durant win a title, and his play remains inadequately adapted to doing that.

[Doctor MJ]

Durant doesn't even have superior stats, if you look at the entire 2013-14 year, which this thread is about, then LeBron has a higher PER now than Durant, with a bigger gap than Durant had in the RS. And LeBron was already ahead in some stats (RAPM and similar stuff) even after just the RS.
LeBron's statistical gap on Kobe in 2010 was roughly the size of gap Durant had on Kyle Lowry this year. Plus LeBron had better stats against the 2010 Celtics than Kobe

To be clear, the NPI RAPM data clearly favored Durant over LeBron. LeBron simply had the edge in the PI data, which uses prior seasons to inform the results, and given that LeBron's been the superior player in the past that makes it a problematic metric to use for this particular question.

[ronnymac2]

Steph Curry remains my clear #3 choice. I'm seeing others list either Chris Paul or Blake Griffin for that spot, which is of course part of why neither is likely to best Curry for me who led a team with a major injury to basically a draw against the Paul/Griffin team.

I could see someone maybe being able to sway me on Paul given that injuries are part of the issue there, but not Griffin. With Griffin's candidacy I keep thinking about Kevin Love. To me Curry's edge over Love is how tough it is to stop Curry's impact no matter the pressure you put on any place on the court, and generally this is the advantage of backcourt players vs frontcourt players.

And of course, Griffin is a front court player too. I'd really like to see a convincing argument that our concerns about Love don't also apply to Griffin. Or put another way: With a more reasonable team context, I'm not at all convinced that Love can't do great things on a contender.

Griffin has much better handles than Love, or any other PF save Dirk for that matter. Griffin can handle full court, and more importantly, he can attack from the 3-point line. He can catch the ball 20-24 feet away, and use his dribble to get 12 feet away from the hoop, and then begin his real attack from there. He's not limited by the effectiveness of his post-entry passers/pick-n-roll partners as much as other frontcourt players. Think Charles Barkley.

[ronnymac2]

Very preliminary...

LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Steph Curry
Blake Griffin
Chris Paul...Maybe Russell Westbrook...very tough.

Honestly, it comes down to those 6 for me. James and Durant have had the top two spots in that order all season for me, and nothing is changing that now. I think I'd give Curry the edge over Blake. Blake was amazing, but I do dock him some for not using his new skillset to its absolute fullest degree in the playoffs. That contributed to a bit of inconsistency in my opinion. Curry did an enormous amount of heavy lifting, first with GS not having a point guard off the bench until moves were made, then having Iggy out for a while. The big man rotation was in shambles for the second half of the season, too.

Paul vs. Westbrook is where I'm hung up. Not sure about it.

Griffin vs. 76 games of CP3 would have been interesting for me. I'm not sure who the best Clipper player is anymore.