Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition]

[MartinToVaught]

Chris Paul is one of the most overrated players of all time, and he bears far more responsibility for his teams' playoff failures than the media or fans are ever willing to give him.

[MartinToVaught]

I think the coach should be the most powerful person on a team

Counterargument: Doc Rivers and Mike Dunleavy. Coaches are too short-sighted by nature; having all the power over a franchise requires long-term thinking. Even Gregg Popovich recognized that he couldn't juggle both roles and stepped down as GM.

[tone wone]

Yes, because lord knows no one every lays the Clippers failures on Chris Paul. You have to search the ends of internet to find criticism of him.

[Doctor MJ]

Chris Paul is one of the most overrated players of all time, and he bears far more responsibility for his teams' playoff failures than the media or fans are ever willing to give him.

Could you elaborate?

(And everyone else, be chill, we are trying to hear alternative views not bury them.)


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[THKNKG]

1) Draymond Green is a top 10 player in the league, and so is Rudy Gobert. I think Draymond could have a plausible argument for top 5.

2) Draymond Green is one of the most portable players in history.

3) Lebron and Jordan are basically a wash, depending on what you value. If you value playmaking, Lebron. If you value volume scoring really efficiently, Jordan. Again, depends on who you value.

3) if you take into account intangibles and effect on winning, Tim Duncan is a CLEAR goat candidate (according to my criteria, he's one of 5 or so with an argument for GOAT)

4) I would take KG over Shaq

5) Elgin Baylor could have an argument for top 20 (though I definitely think he's underrated regardless)

6) Dr. J may have had a top 5 peak

7) box scores and impact stats are inextricably linked - you need both, and the eye test can give context to both

8) Chris Paul and Steve Nash are probably top 20

9) Dennis Rodman is underrated because of how much value his rebounding produces - he's probably the most valuable "role player" ever

10) same for Moses Malone, his offensive rebounding is really valuable

11) '67 Wilt may be the best player ever (though 2016 finals Lebron is the best player ever in a small playoff sample size) - Peak Lebron and 2016 Steph might have an argument as well

12) Lebron would have played really well in any era - he would have translated better than Jordan (though Jordan would still be excellent)








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[Quotatious]

7) box scores and impact stats are inextricably linked - you need both, and the eye test can give context to both

What's interesting is that guys who are "plus/minus monsters", more than conventional wisdom would suggest, like D-Rob and KG, are also fantastic in terms of box-score stats, so I think there's indeed a close correlation.

[Baski]

Yeah we mostly agree. I'm saying that this doesn't lead to the conclusion that efficiency is overrated, because at the end of the day, these players we're talking about as scoring threats became scoring threats because they can hit those shots at respectable percentages. The reason Dirk is defended tightly when he's 1/16 is that he has proven he will most likely go 15/30 by his past performances. He needed to be very efficient to warrant tight coverage even when he's not hitting them.
Maybe it's a wording issue but "efficiency is overrated" gives me the impression that someone can come into the league shooting 34% on 30 shots per game his whole career and still have as good an effect on team offense as a more efficient scorer.

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Yeah, that's fine. I was discussing efficiency in terms of the players discussed more on the PC board. No one shooting 35% for 30 ppg is leading their team to any offenses worth talking about. Most of the players we talk about here are good. Efficiency's overrated, but it's not THAT overrated.

Fair enough. Your point about efficiency due to shot selection is interesting. I've heard this argument before and i don't know whether it's true or not.

When I said overrated, I meant overrated in terms of using it as a major tiebreaker in evaluating a player comparison. Most of the efficiency gods usually aren't able or willing to take the shots a player with lower efficiency might be comfortable taking, so their offenses tend to slip a little more in the playoffs or against better defenses, despite the efficiency difference. I guarantee you that efficiency gods like Harden, D-Rob, Malone, Durant saw their efficiency or volume slip more in the playoffs by TS% compared to guys like Hakeem or Kobe, even though the first group of guys had better efficiency in the RS.

Think about like this - one guy could put up 63% TS on 18 FGA and another could be at 57% TS on 23 attempts, but what the box score doesn't tell you is that the 18 FGA guy probably passed up shots that the 23 FGA guy could take. That might not be so bad if your teammates have a good look or something, but what if they don't? Then instead of a 35-40% shot that your superstar can make, you end up with some BS shot where the teammates have to make something out of nothing with the shot clock winding down - maybe in the 10-20% conversion rate - or worse, a turnover.

What I'm getting from this, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that a lot of the efficiency gods achieve their high efficiency by careful shot selection and unwillingness to take "tough" shots. I've always asked myself:
How many of these tough shots are actually dumb low IQ shots? As to "what if they don't have good shots?", it's not like the Lebron's and Dirk's and Curry's don't take these bailout and contested shots you're talking about. They all take their fair share. I know for a fact Harden in the 2016 season was guilty of passing to his teammates late in the shotclock to protect his FG% so i can't say much for him, but the others take their fair share. They just happen to have higher TS% because they play smarter over the course of the game, in spite of the bailout shots they take.

Kobe is a really bad example to use because he is known for taking bad shots just because he can or believes he can make them. Other stars should not be penalized for playing smarter than Kobe Kobe Bryant.

I don't see anything wrong with one's efficiency slipping in the playoffs because well.......it's the playoffs. I'd have no problem with a guy who drops from 60%TS to around 54%, if the alternative is a 54% guy who maintains this efficiency. Only a handful of the truly elite are able to maintain RS efficiency in the PS. There's also the mental aspect as well so I'm not sure a finger can be pointed at just shot selection

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[THKNKG]

7) box scores and impact stats are inextricably linked - you need both, and the eye test can give context to both

What's interesting is that guys who are "plus/minus monsters", more than conventional wisdom would suggest, like D-Rob and KG, are also fantastic in terms of box-score stats, so I think there's indeed a close correlation.

Exactly, plus those "plus/minus" monsters also do so much that box score doesn't show (ex. Help defense, screening, etc.) It's why I think it's important to have a healthy balance of various stats and eye test, because every stat and every form of measurement (including eye test) has limits. That's why we have a huge variety of statistics to attempt to judge them.


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[MartinToVaught]

Chris Paul is one of the most overrated players of all time, and he bears far more responsibility for his teams' playoff failures than the media or fans are ever willing to give him.

Could you elaborate?

(And everyone else, be chill, we are trying to hear alternative views not bury them.)

2008: The Spurs and Hornets were evenly-matched teams with the same record, and they split the season series that year. The Hornets had a 2-0 lead and were a half away from going up 3-0 and effectively clinching the series. Chandler and West played very well, especially Chandler, who shut down Duncan as much as anyone possibly could. The difference in the series ultimately was Paul vanishing down the stretch of Games 3 and 7 and getting outplayed by Tony Parker when it mattered most.

2009: Paul got absolutely humiliated by a past-prime Billups. It's hard to blame his teammates too much when he was turning it over like crazy and playing awful basketball.

2011: This is the one playoff loss where I think Paul is totally blameless. He did everything he could and just didn't have enough help to beat the Lakers.

2012: Paul was at best the third-best player on his own team against the Spurs. Blake and Bledsoe clearly outplayed him. Even then, they still couldn't make up for his very poor play throughout the course of the series (13/4/9 on 37%).

2013: The Clippers had a 2-0 series lead over the Grizzlies - then Paul choked in Game 3 (8/6/4, 5 TO, 36%) and in the 4th quarter of game 4 (1 point and 1 assist in garbage time, ballooning the Grizzlies' lead from 4 to 21 in the process). From there, the backdoor sweep was on.

2014: Westbrook (28/6/9/2 on 49%) dominated Paul (23/4/12/3 on 51%) in everything but assists this series. Paul had more help (everyone on the Clippers not named Paul or Blake scored 60 points per game; everyone on the Thunder not named Westbrook or Durant only scored 46 points per game) and couldn't do anything with it. And we all remember his brutal chokejob in Game 5.

2015: Despite having a 3-1 lead and Beverley out for the series, Paul completely choked. He came out passive in Game 5, racking up half of his 22 and 10 in garbage time. In the fourth quarter of Game 6, while Blake was being triple-teamed and the Rockets had nobody who could guard Paul, he could only manage a 2-7 shooting performance (and one of those makes came in garbage time when the damage was already done). In Game 7, Paul once again came out passive and afraid to shoot; a decent chunk of his 26 and 10 came in garbage time when the pressure was off. Blake won a road game in Houston without Paul earlier in the series, something that Paul couldn't do with Blake.

2016: Hard to take much away from a series where both Blake and Paul went down with serious injuries, but that series had the look of a typical Clippers meltdown even before the injuries.

2017: Paul set a negative tone in Game 1 by once again coming out passive and afraid to shoot in the opening quarters; he finally started looking for his shot down the stretch, but it was too little, too late at that point. He almost choked Game 6 away with some horrible turnovers down the stretch. And he vanished completely from Game 7, spending most of his time jawing at refs, screaming at his teammates, and trying to bait for phony "fouls" instead of leading his team and making a positive impact. He had 13 points all game and only 1 of them came in the 4th quarter.

Note: I'm not saying that Paul is the only one who deserves blame for his teams' failures. However, if you look back through the series he's lost, he's been a major reason for the loss in almost every single one of them. He's been unable to seal the deal even when he's had the series lead and help around him. It's a team sport, and Paul is not so far above the teams he plays for that he deserves to be blameless for their failures regardless of how he plays.

[Senior]

What I'm getting from this, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that a lot of the efficiency gods achieve their high efficiency by careful shot selection and unwillingness to take "tough" shots. I've always asked myself:
How many of these tough shots are actually dumb low IQ shots? As to "what if they don't have good shots?", it's not like the Lebron's and Dirk's and Curry's don't take these bailout and contested shots you're talking about. They all take their fair share. I know for a fact Harden in the 2016 season was guilty of passing to his teammates late in the shotclock to protect his FG% so i can't say much for him, but the others take their fair share. They just happen to have higher TS% because they play smarter over the course of the game, in spite of the bailout shots they take.

Kobe is a really bad example to use because he is known for taking bad shots just because he can or believes he can make them. Other stars should not be penalized for playing smarter than Kobe Kobe Bryant.

Most ATGs are intelligent enough to not take shots from places they're not comfortable shooting from. The difference is that some players are comfortable shooting from far more places, so they have no issues shooting more. It's not a matter of unwillingness or being scared or stat-padding, there's just less chances to fail. Any given jump shot probably isn't going in more than 50% of the time, so more opportunities on the floor = more chances to fail. But some players don't even give themselves the chance to begin with.

Shot selection is overrated in terms of discussing BBIQ or who played smarter. Did Kobe take a bunch of really awful shots that no one should take? Probably. Did others take their share of bailouts? Sure. The thing is, I've also seen Kobe make a bunch of shots that shouldn't have gone in. The defense played it perfectly and blew up the Lakers preferred options...but Kobe scored anyway or made something happen. His shot selection couldn't have hurt them that much since he's sitting at home with 5 titles.

To me, the shot selection thing is overrated because the bulk of Kobe's misses aren't from dumb shots - since Kobe's proven to be a scoring threat from anywhere in the HC. Dumb shots is stuff like taking an off the dribble three with 18 left on the shot clock, or taking a 20 foot fadeaway with 3 guys all over you. Missing a contested mid-range shot isn't a bad shot, you just missed. Neither is missing a baseline fadeaway with the shot clock running down. Kobe's misses fell in the latter category most of the time. That's why I think it's overblown.

I don't see anything wrong with one's efficiency slipping in the playoffs because well.......it's the playoffs. I'd have no problem with a guy who drops from 60%TS to around 54%, if the alternative is a 54% guy who maintains this efficiency. Only a handful of the truly elite are able to maintain RS efficiency in the PS. There's also the mental aspect as well so I'm not sure a finger can be pointed at just shot selection

I'd have a huge problem with a guy going from 60% TS to 54% in the playoffs because it means that whatever the defense is doing to him in the playoffs, it's working. It means that whatever 60% guy was doing in the RS, it's not working in the playoffs when defenses are dialing in to stop him. It means that the production 60% guy was giving in the RS cannot be counted on in the playoffs. On the other hand, 54% playoffs guy is doing the same things he did in the RS, and if he's your offensive anchor, you're in great shape because the rest of the team offense can function the way it was in the RS. The other guys don't have to do things outside of their comfort zone, they can get the easier points they were accustomed to in the RS, they can play the way they've been playing the entire year.

It's basically D-Rob vs Hakeem. D-Rob was always more efficient than Hakeem in the RS, but it NEVER mattered because he couldn't ever maintain it in the playoffs and his teams were underperforming year in and year out. Compare that to Hakeem, whose RS/playoffs TS% stayed at about 56-57% from 93-95. It's no wonder he walked away with 2 titles. Guy was doing the same things in the playoffs against fiercer competition like he did in the RS, which means that no matter what the playoff defenses were doing against him, it didn't work well enough to beat the Rockets.

You said it yourself. Only the truly elite are maintaining their RS efficiency+volume in the playoffs. Kobe's one of them.

[Baski]

Most ATGs are intelligent enough to not take shots from places they're not comfortable shooting from. The difference is that some players are comfortable shooting from far more places, so they have no issues shooting more. It's not a matter of unwillingness or being scared or stat-padding, there's just less chances to fail. Any given jump shot probably isn't going in more than 50% of the time, so more opportunities on the floor = more chances to fail. But some players don't even give themselves the chance to begin with.

Shot selection is overrated in terms of discussing BBIQ or who played smarter. Did Kobe take a bunch of really awful shots that no one should take? Probably. Did others take their share of bailouts? Sure. The thing is, I've also seen Kobe make a bunch of shots that shouldn't have gone in.

I agree that Kobe was one of the best, if not the best ever, shotmakers in NBA history. That's kind of why i don't think he's a good example. You're basically saying that he made a lot of bad shots and attributing it to his willingness/comfort in taking those, but you can't ignore that he is very talented when it comes to shooting. The same can't be said of some of these ATGs, which is why they would rather take smarter shots than shots that "shouldn't go in". If D-Rob or Duncan or Wade had to shoot a do-or-die 3pter to tie/win a game or bring them back into it, I'd criticize then for not doing so, but in the flow of the game, I'd expect them to take shots they know they can make, not triple threat into a fadeaway 3pter with 3 defenders over them and their teammates wide open, whether they make those or not. Obviously the defense gameplans against letting them get to their spots and shooting, and that's why i understand drops in efficiency. They try to stop you so it's obviously gonna be harder.

The defense played it perfectly and blew up the Lakers preferred options...but Kobe scored anyway or made something happen. His shot selection couldn't have hurt them that much since he's sitting at home with 5 titles.

It's nice to remember only the good times, but he's also failed lots of times due to this, and other times got bailed out or his teammates picked up after him to prevent the loss.
That being said i don't have much against this point except that not all ATGs(a small number actually) are as talented as Kobe Bryant and can score in as many ways as he can, which should not be a knock on them, just like him being vastly inferior to Rodman as a rebounder and to a lesser extent Magic as a playmaker is not held against him.

To me, the shot selection thing is overrated because the bulk of Kobe's misses aren't from dumb shots - since Kobe's proven to be a scoring threat from anywhere in the HC. Dumb shots is stuff like taking an off the dribble three with 18 left on the shot clock, or taking a 20 foot fadeaway with 3 guys all over you. Missing a contested mid-range shot isn't a bad shot, you just missed. Neither is missing a baseline fadeaway with the shot clock running down. Kobe's misses fell in the latter category most of the time. That's why I think it's overblown.

Not gonna say much about this. Kobe is a great shooter

I'd have a huge problem with a guy going from 60% TS to 54% in the playoffs because it means that whatever the defense is doing to him in the playoffs, it's working. It means that whatever 60% guy was doing in the RS, it's not working in the playoffs when defenses are dialing in to stop him. It means that the production 60% guy was giving in the RS cannot be counted on in the playoffs. On the other hand, 54% playoffs guy is doing the same things he did in the RS, and if he's your offensive anchor, you're in great shape because the rest of the team offense can function the way it was in the RS. The other guys don't have to do things outside of their comfort zone, they can get the easier points they were accustomed to in the RS, they can play the way they've been playing the entire year.

I get this. I think the dropoff i used was too big. 6% is pretty significant. I'm okay with a drop as long as it's not huge.

It's basically D-Rob vs Hakeem. D-Rob was always more efficient than Hakeem in the RS, but it NEVER mattered because he couldn't ever maintain it in the playoffs and his teams were underperforming year in and year out. Compare that to Hakeem, whose RS/playoffs TS% stayed at about 56-57% from 93-95. It's no wonder he walked away with 2 titles. Guy was doing the same things in the playoffs against fiercer competition like he did in the RS, which means that no matter what the playoff defenses were doing against him, it didn't work well enough to beat the Rockets.

This is true.

You said it yourself. Only the truly elite are maintaining their RS efficiency+volume in the playoffs. Kobe's one of them.

Also true

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[MyUniBroDavis]

1. If Monty stayed Pelicans would be a playoff team and Davis would be a perennial MVP candidate
2. Westbrook will average a triple double next year
3. Golden state arent going to win in the finals
4. kobe is top 10 all time
5. Peak Nash>Peak Paul
6. I'm really high on Kyrie
7. Curry is a solid top 10 defensive pg, based on impact (I think system helps him for sure tho)
8. Jokic is the best offensive big man in the NBA based on impact (talent I have Davis still)
9. Isaiah Thomas is a top 2 scorer in the NBA and if he was solid defensively he would be MVP (solid being like 5th best def pg or something. Not a Beverly but still a positive)
10.westbrook will be better next year than this year

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Legit, while reading your post, I was eating a carrot cake.

[JLei]

1. If Monty stayed Pelicans would be a playoff team and Davis would be a perennial MVP candidate
2. Westbrook will average a triple double next year
3. Golden state arent going to win in the finals
4. kobe is top 10 all time
5. Peak Nash>Peak Paul
6. I'm really high on Kyrie
7. Curry is a solid top 10 defensive pg, based on impact (I think system helps him for sure tho)
8. Jokic is the best offensive big man in the NBA based on impact (talent I have Davis still)
9. Isaiah Thomas is a top 2 scorer in the NBA and if he was solid defensively he would be MVP (solid being like 5th best def pg or something. Not a Beverly but still a positive)
10.westbrook will be better next year than this year

I LOVE CARROT CAKE!!!!!!

Legit, while reading your post, I was eating a carrot cake.

Most of these aren't unpopular and most of them are the popular opinion around here.

Maybe number 3. Because GSW is going to win.
I guess most people have Paul over Nash as well because of defense.

Don't really know what to think about Monty.

[ThaRegul8r]

If D-Rob or Duncan or Wade had to shoot a do-or-die 3pter to tie/win a game or bring them back into it

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[Goudelock]

Kevin Durant's legacy isn't hurt at all by going to Golden State.

And that if the exact same move had been made 30 years ago, no one would've cared, because there wasn't a 24 hour news cycle.

[eminence]

Not sure if unpopular in general, but will certainly be unpopular with some: I don't think Kobe ever played with a bad supporting cast. His '05-'07 crew wasn't title worthy by any means, but I don't see much of a gap between them and some Dirk teams, early 00's KG teams, or say this years Thunder.

[Senior]

I agree that Kobe was one of the best, if not the best ever, shotmakers in NBA history. That's kind of why i don't think he's a good example. You're basically saying that he made a lot of bad shots and attributing it to his willingness/comfort in taking those, but you can't ignore that he is very talented when it comes to shooting. The same can't be said of some of these ATGs, which is why they would rather take smarter shots than shots that "shouldn't go in". If D-Rob or Duncan or Wade had to shoot a do-or-die 3pter to tie/win a game or bring them back into it, I'd criticize then for not doing so, but in the flow of the game, I'd expect them to take shots they know they can make, not triple threat into a fadeaway 3pter with 3 defenders over them and their teammates wide open, whether they make those or not. Obviously the defense gameplans against letting them get to their spots and shooting, and that's why i understand drops in efficiency. They try to stop you so it's obviously gonna be harder.

Kobe's not taking 5 fadeaway threes a game. You're overstating how many times that actually happened. It's just easy to conjure up an example of that happening because it's so blatant. But it wasn't happening multiple times a game, and certainly not that many times in his prime when he could still get to the rim more often that not.

I would much rather put the ball in the hands of my offensive superstar late in games because they're by definition better than the other guys on the court. I don't want my guy taking a three if they're not a good three point shooter. But I definitely don't want my offensively inferior teammates to force something because it's almost certainly not going to work. I know prime Kobe can make a shot from anywhere in the HC, so I can justify most of the shots he takes. I'd feel comfortable going to Duncan and Wade late in games, but it's not as if they didn't have considerable support in their playoff runs either. Most of the time they didn't need to take shots they weren't comfortable with - some years, like the 01-02 Spurs vs LA, Duncan's efficiency decreased badly because his offensive support wasn't really there and they needed him to do too much.

People really underestimate how difficult it is to have major volume, and sometimes the smart shot isn't always the one that leads you forward.

It's nice to remember only the good times, but he's also failed lots of times due to this, and other times got bailed out or his teammates picked up after him to prevent the loss.
That being said i don't have much against this point except that not all ATGs(a small number actually) are as talented as Kobe Bryant and can score in as many ways as he can, which should not be a knock on them, just like him being vastly inferior to Rodman as a rebounder and to a lesser extent Magic as a playmaker is not held against him.

Well, yeah. Most players fail most of the time. Doesn't change the fact that he was succeeding enough to win 5 titles. Whatever he was doing, it clearly worked well enough. Failure in individual games is irrelevant if your team is the last one standing. Kobe made 7 Finals and the two he lost he faced two GOAT-level defenses. He had more contending chances than most other guys, but he was making the most of them, so all the talk about the teammates doesn't really matter to me. If anything Kobe should be lauded for being able to blend his game so easily with all kinds of players.

I get this. I think the dropoff i used was too big. 6% is pretty significant. I'm okay with a drop as long as it's not huge.

The efficiency is a small part of it. Your volume can decrease, your teammates volume/efficiency can decrease, and the other team can prevail because it all starts with your anchor. If your offensive anchor can't do what he was doing in RS, it's a team-wide collapse.

Most players do see a playoff efficiency drop just because you're facing better teams. It's the guys increasing or maintaining their combination of volume and efficiency that tend to go farther in the playoffs and win more titles. It's not a shocker when guys like MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Magic are winning multiple titles because their offensive game remains steady in the playoffs when other guys don't.

[picc]

David Robinson is better than Dream--and more than held his own when they played each other outside of that one series.
Tim Duncan deserves serious GOAT consideration---I'd take him over Kareem right now.
Jason Kidd was an incredible basketball player. The best PG drafted from 1990 forward.
Kevin Garnett in Minnesota provided more offensive value than defensive value. And I don't know that it's all that close either.
Phil Jackson is not a top 5 all-time coach
Boogie Cousins isn't a top ten center in the game right now.

Going to quote again, because this is such a fantastical and 'unpopular' opinion (that I don't necessarily agree or disagree with) that it invites at least some sort of explanation. If you feel inclined, obviously.

[Baski]

If D-Rob or Duncan or Wade had to shoot a do-or-die 3pter to tie/win a game or bring them back into it

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Watch on YouTube

Haha Yes!!! That's exactly the moment i was thinking of when i typed that

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[Baski]

Kobe's not taking 5 fadeaway threes a game. You're overstating how many times that actually happened. It's just easy to conjure up an example of that happening because it's so blatant. But it wasn't happening multiple times a game, and certainly not that many times in his prime when he could still get to the rim more often that not.

Well yeah clearly he didn't do it that many times, just enough times for him to become associated with it.
Draymond Green doesn't kick people in the nuts all the time either(extreme example but i hope it gets the point across) and last year Curry wasn't shooting half court shots 5 times a game either.

I would much rather put the ball in the hands of my offensive superstar late in games because they're by definition better than the other guys on the court. I don't want my guy taking a three if they're not a good three point shooter. But I definitely don't want my offensively inferior teammates to force something because it's almost certainly not going to work. I know prime Kobe can make a shot from anywhere in the HC, so I can justify most of the shots he takes. I'd feel comfortable going to Duncan and Wade late in games, but it's not as if they didn't have considerable support in their playoff runs either. Most of the time they didn't need to take shots they weren't comfortable with - some years, like the 01-02 Spurs vs LA, Duncan's efficiency decreased badly because his offensive support wasn't really there and they needed him to do too much.
People really underestimate how difficult it is to have major volume, and sometimes the smart shot isn't always the one that leads you forward.

I ........still think we agree mostly here.
"Take shots you usually make, unless you absolutely have to take those other ones" would be my message to my anchor. I think that's what you're saying too.

Well, yeah. Most players fail most of the time. Doesn't change the fact that he was succeeding enough to win 5 titles. Whatever he was doing, it clearly worked well enough. Failure in individual games is irrelevant if your team is the last one standing. Kobe made 7 Finals and the two he lost he faced two GOAT-level defenses. He had more contending chances than most other guys, but he was making the most of them, so all the talk about the teammates doesn't really matter to me. If anything Kobe should be lauded for being able to blend his game so easily with all kinds of players.

Yeah i did say i don't have much against that point. Kobe was a phenomenal player. I'm not trying to nitpick his accomplishments or anything. I just feel that he is not exactly the ideal role model when it comes to shot selection, because despite maintaining good efficiency, he ranks low among the other ATGs, which for me takes away from your argument against the efficiency gods, at least those we rank as truly elite.

The efficiency is a small part of it. Your volume can decrease, your teammates volume/efficiency can decrease, and the other team can prevail because it all starts with your anchor. If your offensive anchor can't do what he was doing in RS, it's a team-wide collapse.

Most players do see a playoff efficiency drop just because you're facing better teams. It's the guys increasing or maintaining their combination of volume and efficiency that tend to go farther in the playoffs and win more titles. It's not a shocker when guys like MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Magic are winning multiple titles because their offensive game remains steady in the playoffs when other guys don't.

We totally agree here. "Only the truly elite" and all that jazz.




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