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LukaTheGOAT wrote:The top 10 defensive postseasons between Lebron and MJ according to D-PIPM (in order):
07 LBJ
16 LBJ
91 MJ
10 LBJ
09 LBJ
12 LBJ
87 MJ
17 LBJ
14 LBJ
08 LBJ
LukaTheGOAT wrote:Okay, looking at PS rDRTG (so looking at the relative change of the offenses they went up against from regular season (RS) to postseason (PS).
The 2018 Warriors were a -7.9. Jordan played 2 teams that were comparable, the 88 Pistons (-8.1) and the 90 Pistons (-8.3).
Lebron vs the 2018 Warriors (with a damaged hand after game 1)
34 pts (62 TS%), 10 assists, and 8.5 rebounds
GameScore-28.3
Jordan vs the 1988 Pistons
27.4 pts (54.9TS%), 4.6 assists, and 8.8 rebounds.
GameScore-20.4
Jordan vs the 1990 Pistons
32.1 pts (56.6TS%), 6.3 assists, and 7.1 rebounds
GameScore-24.8
VanWest82 wrote:LukaTheGOAT wrote:Okay, looking at PS rDRTG (so looking at the relative change of the offenses they went up against from regular season (RS) to postseason (PS).
The 2018 Warriors were a -7.9. Jordan played 2 teams that were comparable, the 88 Pistons (-8.1) and the 90 Pistons (-8.3).
Lebron vs the 2018 Warriors (with a damaged hand after game 1)
34 pts (62 TS%), 10 assists, and 8.5 rebounds
GameScore-28.3
Jordan vs the 1988 Pistons
27.4 pts (54.9TS%), 4.6 assists, and 8.8 rebounds.
GameScore-20.4
Jordan vs the 1990 Pistons
32.1 pts (56.6TS%), 6.3 assists, and 7.1 rebounds
GameScore-24.8
The 88-90 Pistons trapped and double teamed (and assaulted) MJ to get the ball out of his hands which limited his stats. Warriors largely guarded Lebron straight up with Iggy as the primary defender. Lebron also did that with a (mostly) wide open floor and no bigs protecting the basket. He didn't have to account for not only interior defenders but his own guys clogging up the lanes looking for post entries. I hate how we've arrived at a place where we're not even attempting to account for context. It's just individual stats and nothing else.
Cavsfansince84 wrote:On a sidenote I decided to watch the 89 ecf game 1 and it was interesting to watch. The most annoying thing about it is I'd forgotten how rarely they showed the score on the screen back then. They'd go 10 min without showing it at all while the commentators might mention it once.
The Bulls just barely hung on for a win after leading by 20 at the half. The Bulls mvps in the first half were actually Corzine and Cartwright, along with Hodges and MJ. Corzine had 12 pts a minute into the second qtr on 6-6 shooting with only 4 of those pts being easy set ups by MJ.
In the second half the Pistons just started executing the Bulls to death in the halfcourt. Their ability to instinctively know who should shoot it and find back door cutters for easy layups was on another level. Isiah seemed like he was in the twilight zone for the whole game in a bad way. The Pistons defense on MJ didn't actually seem that stifling despite him finishing 10-29. He wasn't being doubled that aggressively and tbh just missed a lot including a point blank layup. What stood out was the few times that Rodman took MJ on he really gave MJ fits. Bulls were very lucky to hold onto that win and MJ's play down the stretch was pretty shaky. Grant and Salley were both a comedy of errors in the short time they saw the court. Rodman's energy seemed key to the Pistons comeback(they got it to 1 and were down 3 with 30 sec left when they got called for an offensive foul).
falcolombardi wrote:let it be noted that by relative defensive rating lebron has played more great defenses than jordan. in the playoffs, the average defense he has played against was significatively tougher and he has held up his efficiency a bit better against those great defensive teams (with the caveat he does so in lesser volume that. jordan)
homecourtloss has a long ass post about that which i wish i had saved
VanWest82 wrote:Cavsfansince84 wrote:On a sidenote I decided to watch the 89 ecf game 1 and it was interesting to watch. The most annoying thing about it is I'd forgotten how rarely they showed the score on the screen back then. They'd go 10 min without showing it at all while the commentators might mention it once.
It's funny this never used to bother me back in the day. Now I can hardly watch a baseball game without the strike zone box let alone the score or each guy's slash line. Are we really better off? Sometimes I wonder.The Bulls just barely hung on for a win after leading by 20 at the half. The Bulls mvps in the first half were actually Corzine and Cartwright, along with Hodges and MJ. Corzine had 12 pts a minute into the second qtr on 6-6 shooting with only 4 of those pts being easy set ups by MJ.
In the second half the Pistons just started executing the Bulls to death in the halfcourt. Their ability to instinctively know who should shoot it and find back door cutters for easy layups was on another level. Isiah seemed like he was in the twilight zone for the whole game in a bad way. The Pistons defense on MJ didn't actually seem that stifling despite him finishing 10-29. He wasn't being doubled that aggressively and tbh just missed a lot including a point blank layup. What stood out was the few times that Rodman took MJ on he really gave MJ fits. Bulls were very lucky to hold onto that win and MJ's play down the stretch was pretty shaky. Grant and Salley were both a comedy of errors in the short time they saw the court. Rodman's energy seemed key to the Pistons comeback(they got it to 1 and were down 3 with 30 sec left when they got called for an offensive foul).
I decided to re-watch game 4 last night. Hubie was commenting about how Chuck Daly had said pre-game they weren't going to let MJ beat them again. He saw doubles and some triples throughout the game. I counted three plays that were flagrant ones (i.e. all hits to the head on drives) plus a fourth "inadvertent" elbow to the face from Laimbeer on a rebound attempt. MJ was just ok. His jumper was off. The way he played in game 5 makes so much more sense after you watch game 4.
But the main thing I noticed was how incredible he was defensively. He was easily the best defender on a court that had Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars, and Bill Laimbeer. He guarded Isiah most of the game. Isiah and Dumars basically took turns killing Craig Hodges until Bulls pulled him out. Isiah drew two fouls on MJ but outside of that didn't really score or assist on him. MJ not only suffocated Pistons offense at POA but he also flew all over the court providing help. It was such a stark contrast to what I saw from Lebron having just watched first half of game 6 vs. Orlando. There was no comparison in terms of defensive usage or impact. I'm still at a loss when I hear people try and argue Lebron > MJ defensively. I wish tracking was available back then.
sansterre wrote:The converse, of course, is that there are several points (made by others I believe) that assert that LeBron got shut down by multiple teams in the playoffs deploying multiple players to stop him, and that the fact that LeBron *could* be shut down is evidence of how he wasn't a strong #1 option at that point.
If opposing teams can [insert strategy here] to limit LeBron as evidence of his weakness, surely opposing teams using [insert strategy here] to limit Jordan can be used the same way.
LukaTheGOAT wrote:migya wrote:falcolombardi wrote:
there is a problem with this argument
just because nobody has done a video of jordan defensive mistakes (or it has not gained traction, or you have not seen it) is not proof those didnt exist
i am sure there must be a recopilation of bad jordan plays in a finals somewhere, and if there is not it probably could easily be done
with highlighting (and lowlighthing) specific plays cherrh picked over hundreds (or thousand) of possesions in a series you can easily push may narrative.
i am sure you could pick jrue hollyday 20 worst defensive possesions out of 1000 in a series and make a 12 minutes video making him look bad
no player has weaknesses in a highlight video and no one is good in a lowlights video
if you kept track of said defensive mistakes, kept count, made sure they actually were mistakes (sometimes watching in live time is hard to know who actually messed up, is easy to misplace the Blame on the dude who got scored on by trying to contest or has to leave his own man open to help on another player and looks bad for it)
and proved that a player actually made mistakes in a higher proportion then that would be somethingh
otherwise is just cherrypicking
Jordan has had defensive lapses otherwise noone he has guarded would've ever scored, but he's never had a bad defensive series like this one by Lebron.
The below video by Thinking Basketball, which I think there was a thread on here a while ago, shows some examples of Jordan's defensive lapses, but is picking over a large sample spread, over many years.
The guy who made the video of MJ's strengths and weaknesses rates Lebron's defense in at least 5 of his seasons as better than Jordan's very best season on defense.
Pennebaker wrote:Jordan lacks LeBron's mental toughness.
Djoker wrote:They conveniently argue Lebron > MJ defensively which unfortunately due to lack of data is a statement that isn't easily disproven.
However we do know that both head coaches who voted for All-Defensive teams prior to 2014 and media who vote for DPOY are apparently both incredibly biased against Lebron who is "clearly" a tier ahead of Jordan defensively.
Djoker wrote:VanWest82 wrote:Cavsfansince84 wrote:On a sidenote I decided to watch the 89 ecf game 1 and it was interesting to watch. The most annoying thing about it is I'd forgotten how rarely they showed the score on the screen back then. They'd go 10 min without showing it at all while the commentators might mention it once.
It's funny this never used to bother me back in the day. Now I can hardly watch a baseball game without the strike zone box let alone the score or each guy's slash line. Are we really better off? Sometimes I wonder.The Bulls just barely hung on for a win after leading by 20 at the half. The Bulls mvps in the first half were actually Corzine and Cartwright, along with Hodges and MJ. Corzine had 12 pts a minute into the second qtr on 6-6 shooting with only 4 of those pts being easy set ups by MJ.
In the second half the Pistons just started executing the Bulls to death in the halfcourt. Their ability to instinctively know who should shoot it and find back door cutters for easy layups was on another level. Isiah seemed like he was in the twilight zone for the whole game in a bad way. The Pistons defense on MJ didn't actually seem that stifling despite him finishing 10-29. He wasn't being doubled that aggressively and tbh just missed a lot including a point blank layup. What stood out was the few times that Rodman took MJ on he really gave MJ fits. Bulls were very lucky to hold onto that win and MJ's play down the stretch was pretty shaky. Grant and Salley were both a comedy of errors in the short time they saw the court. Rodman's energy seemed key to the Pistons comeback(they got it to 1 and were down 3 with 30 sec left when they got called for an offensive foul).
I decided to re-watch game 4 last night. Hubie was commenting about how Chuck Daly had said pre-game they weren't going to let MJ beat them again. He saw doubles and some triples throughout the game. I counted three plays that were flagrant ones (i.e. all hits to the head on drives) plus a fourth "inadvertent" elbow to the face from Laimbeer on a rebound attempt. MJ was just ok. His jumper was off. The way he played in game 5 makes so much more sense after you watch game 4.
But the main thing I noticed was how incredible he was defensively. He was easily the best defender on a court that had Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars, and Bill Laimbeer. He guarded Isiah most of the game. Isiah and Dumars basically took turns killing Craig Hodges until Bulls pulled him out. Isiah drew two fouls on MJ but outside of that didn't really score or assist on him. MJ not only suffocated Pistons offense at POA but he also flew all over the court providing help. It was such a stark contrast to what I saw from Lebron having just watched first half of game 6 vs. Orlando. There was no comparison in terms of defensive usage or impact. I'm still at a loss when I hear people try and argue Lebron > MJ defensively. I wish tracking was available back then.
They conveniently argue Lebron > MJ defensively which unfortunately due to lack of data is a statement that isn't easily disproven.
However we do know that both head coaches who voted for All-Defensive teams prior to 2014 and media who vote for DPOY are apparently both incredibly biased against Lebron who is "clearly" a tier ahead of Jordan defensively.
VanWest82 wrote:Djoker wrote:They conveniently argue Lebron > MJ defensively which unfortunately due to lack of data is a statement that isn't easily disproven.
However we do know that both head coaches who voted for All-Defensive teams prior to 2014 and media who vote for DPOY are apparently both incredibly biased against Lebron who is "clearly" a tier ahead of Jordan defensively.
Also the refs are biased too. MJ only went to the free throw line in 98 because he was getting superstar calls but there's an ongoing conspiracy to prevent Lebron from getting calls. Everyone's in on it.
falcolombardi wrote:Djoker wrote:VanWest82 wrote:It's funny this never used to bother me back in the day. Now I can hardly watch a baseball game without the strike zone box let alone the score or each guy's slash line. Are we really better off? Sometimes I wonder.
I decided to re-watch game 4 last night. Hubie was commenting about how Chuck Daly had said pre-game they weren't going to let MJ beat them again. He saw doubles and some triples throughout the game. I counted three plays that were flagrant ones (i.e. all hits to the head on drives) plus a fourth "inadvertent" elbow to the face from Laimbeer on a rebound attempt. MJ was just ok. His jumper was off. The way he played in game 5 makes so much more sense after you watch game 4.
But the main thing I noticed was how incredible he was defensively. He was easily the best defender on a court that had Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars, and Bill Laimbeer. He guarded Isiah most of the game. Isiah and Dumars basically took turns killing Craig Hodges until Bulls pulled him out. Isiah drew two fouls on MJ but outside of that didn't really score or assist on him. MJ not only suffocated Pistons offense at POA but he also flew all over the court providing help. It was such a stark contrast to what I saw from Lebron having just watched first half of game 6 vs. Orlando. There was no comparison in terms of defensive usage or impact. I'm still at a loss when I hear people try and argue Lebron > MJ defensively. I wish tracking was available back then.
They conveniently argue Lebron > MJ defensively which unfortunately due to lack of data is a statement that isn't easily disproven.
However we do know that both head coaches who voted for All-Defensive teams prior to 2014 and media who vote for DPOY are apparently both incredibly biased against Lebron who is "clearly" a tier ahead of Jordan defensively.
considering they voted jordan over olajuwon/mark eaton or payton over robinson or had kobe making all nba teams in like 2014... or Alvin roberson winning it two years before jordan because he had a lot of steals
yes, i think they have some very big biases depending on the era
Djoker wrote:falcolombardi wrote:Djoker wrote:
They conveniently argue Lebron > MJ defensively which unfortunately due to lack of data is a statement that isn't easily disproven.
However we do know that both head coaches who voted for All-Defensive teams prior to 2014 and media who vote for DPOY are apparently both incredibly biased against Lebron who is "clearly" a tier ahead of Jordan defensively.
considering they voted jordan over olajuwon/mark eaton or payton over robinson or had kobe making all nba teams in like 2014... or Alvin roberson winning it two years before jordan because he had a lot of steals
yes, i think they have some very big biases depending on the era
They also voted Lebron over Garnett and Duncan in a couple of years which was completely indefensible.
falcolombardi wrote:VanWest82 wrote:Djoker wrote:They conveniently argue Lebron > MJ defensively which unfortunately due to lack of data is a statement that isn't easily disproven.
However we do know that both head coaches who voted for All-Defensive teams prior to 2014 and media who vote for DPOY are apparently both incredibly biased against Lebron who is "clearly" a tier ahead of Jordan defensively.
Also the refs are biased too. MJ only went to the free throw line in 98 because he was getting superstar calls but there's an ongoing conspiracy to prevent Lebron from getting calls. Everyone's in on it.
who said anythingh about a conspiracy, that is a strawman argument
what people say is that jordan was getting a lot more freethorws in his 30's that lebron in his 30's and i dont think 98 jordan was going to the line more than 18 lebron
is at least a possibility that a bigger body player like lebron has a higher thresshold for the refs to give calls than a smaller and not as big player as jordan
falcolombardi wrote:sure, but they didnt give him a undeserved dpoy over a much more impactful big man like they did for jordan
jordan winning the 88 DPOY over hakeem and Mark eaton is at least as bad as if lebron won dpoy over howard in 2009
is why i dont give much weight to that dpoy in a defense comparision
VanWest82 wrote:falcolombardi wrote:sure, but they didnt give him a undeserved dpoy over a much more impactful big man like they did for jordan
jordan winning the 88 DPOY over hakeem and Mark eaton is at least as bad as if lebron won dpoy over howard in 2009
is why i dont give much weight to that dpoy in a defense comparision
I find the ongoing discrediting of award winners to be somewhat distasteful. Maybe MJ shouldn't have won and maybe Hakeem or Mark Eaton should've. Maybe Michael Cooper should've won again. The work done by squared2020 certainly suggests Cooper had a good case: https://squared2020.com/1987-88-nba-rapm/
I don't believe in the idea that only big men can win DPOY and everyone else should just be effectively disqualified. You're generalizing to a degree that's leaving you open for significant bias. At the very least, all these winners were terrific defenders in the years they won and deserved to be in the discussion.
VanWest82 wrote:falcolombardi wrote:VanWest82 wrote:
Also the refs are biased too. MJ only went to the free throw line in 98 because he was getting superstar calls but there's an ongoing conspiracy to prevent Lebron from getting calls. Everyone's in on it.
who said anythingh about a conspiracy, that is a strawman argument
what people say is that jordan was getting a lot more freethorws in his 30's that lebron in his 30's and i dont think 98 jordan was going to the line more than 18 lebron
is at least a possibility that a bigger body player like lebron has a higher thresshold for the refs to give calls than a smaller and not as big player as jordan
Ok so read your post to me again and then take it to its logical conclusion. Also, you're hyper generalizing this issue even though it's two different players operating in different eras. How do you explain Embiid or Karl Malone or Moses??
No I don't think Lebron's size has anything to do with it. I'd suggest his heavy feet and lack of one on one ability has more to do with it.
falcolombardi wrote:VanWest82 wrote:falcolombardi wrote:sure, but they didnt give him a undeserved dpoy over a much more impactful big man like they did for jordan
jordan winning the 88 DPOY over hakeem and Mark eaton is at least as bad as if lebron won dpoy over howard in 2009
is why i dont give much weight to that dpoy in a defense comparision
I find the ongoing discrediting of award winners to be somewhat distasteful. Maybe MJ shouldn't have won and maybe Hakeem or Mark Eaton should've. Maybe Michael Cooper should've won again. The work done by squared2020 certainly suggests Cooper had a good case: https://squared2020.com/1987-88-nba-rapm/
I don't believe in the idea that only big men can win DPOY and everyone else should just be effectively disqualified. You're generalizing to a degree that's leaving you open for significant bias. At the very least, all these winners were terrific defenders in the years they won and deserved to be in the discussion.
i am not saying jordan was not an elite defender in 88, but if we are being real about dpoy being the most valuable defender it should have been hakeem or eaton
before him
is why i dont see the argument thst jordan won a dpoy so he is a better defender than lebron too convincing, lebron has 2 second places, he probably didnt deserve them over Marc gasol and howard but neither did Jordan over eaton or hakeem
VanWest82 wrote:falcolombardi wrote:VanWest82 wrote:
I find the ongoing discrediting of award winners to be somewhat distasteful. Maybe MJ shouldn't have won and maybe Hakeem or Mark Eaton should've. Maybe Michael Cooper should've won again. The work done by squared2020 certainly suggests Cooper had a good case: https://squared2020.com/1987-88-nba-rapm/
I don't believe in the idea that only big men can win DPOY and everyone else should just be effectively disqualified. You're generalizing to a degree that's leaving you open for significant bias. At the very least, all these winners were terrific defenders in the years they won and deserved to be in the discussion.
i am not saying jordan was not an elite defender in 88, but if we are being real about dpoy being the most valuable defender it should have been hakeem or eaton
before him
is why i dont see the argument thst jordan won a dpoy so he is a better defender than lebron too convincing, lebron has 2 second places, he probably didnt deserve them over Marc gasol and howard but neither did Jordan over eaton or hakeem
Did you look at the website I linked? That guy took the time to go through 80s game film to calculate stint data for 88 and has 1100 defensive possessions for Hakeem and 1300 defensive possessions for Eaton which yielded negative DRAPM for both guys. I'm the first guy to say take that with a big grain of salt but we can at least say that the sss line up data doesn't support either of those guys. And again, I'm not saying they shouldn't have won (I didn't watch enough games and we don't have enough data for that) but it seems premature to say they should've won just because they're bigs who blocked a lot of shots and we know both to have excellent reputations.
Also, I don't think Jordan was a better defender than Lebron because he won DPOY. I think he was better because he had a higher defensive usage and was more consistent throughout the year.