People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[FlyingArrow]

In terms of offense, MJ is definatly first in line candidate as the best ever. Not sure why you don't think so

Wilt averaged 50ppg in a season. Kareem is the all-time leading scorer.

Jordan is the all time leader in PPG...

So it's debatable. Sounds good.

[prolific passer]

Didn't know Jordan led the league in total points in his rookie season. Pretty cool for a rookie shooting guard to do that.

[penbeast0]

In terms of offense, MJ is definatly first in line candidate as the best ever. Not sure why you don't think so

Wilt averaged 50ppg in a season. Kareem is the all-time leading scorer.

Jordan is the all time leader in PPG...

Better would be some kind of measure that takes into account both scoring volume relative to their era (1962 is a ridiculously high scoring year by any standard) and efficiency relative to their era. It wouldn't surprise me to have Jordan take this but don't think it's necessarily a sure thing. Also, do you take the whole career or just the prime (Kareem played forever), how long is the prime, etc.

[Stalwart]

Wilt averaged 50ppg in a season. Kareem is the all-time leading scorer.

Jordan is the all time leader in PPG...

Better would be some kind of measure that takes into account both scoring volume relative to their era (1962 is a ridiculously high scoring year by any standard) and efficiency relative to their era. It wouldn't surprise me to have Jordan take this but don't think it's necessarily a sure thing. Also, do you take the whole career or just the prime (Kareem played forever), how long is the prime, etc.

I would focus mainly on their prime as that's a better indication of just how good someone is. I also take era into account so although Wilt has the numbers its hard for me to view him as a better scorer than Michael.

[penbeast0]

If you are focused on era, Jordan's was much weaker than the current era because of the influx of international talent that has greatly expanded the talent base for the NBA. Probably more so than the difference between Wilt's era and Jordan's thanks to expansion. Probably bigger stylistic changes too with the spamming of 3 pointers being a thing. So LeBron's case for you should be strengthened by this.

[Stalwart]

If you are focused on era, Jordan's was much weaker than the current era because of the influx of international talent that has greatly expanded the talent base for the NBA. Probably more so than the difference between Wilt's era and Jordan's thanks to expansion. Probably bigger stylistic changes too with the spamming of 3 pointers being a thing. So LeBron's case for you should be strengthened by this.

Everyone knows its much easier to score in todays game. This isn't a debate.

[Mazter]

Pippen only had half of the games in '98 and the Bulls still managed 62 wins and Pippen was carried in the finals that year.

The Bulls were 24-11 (the 4th record in the NBA). They had the 12th offense lead by Jordan with a 105.7 Ortg. They had the 3rd defense lead by Kukoc (95.0), Longley (95.8), Harper (95.9) and then Jordan (96.4).
Then Pippen came back and they went 38-9 with the 4th best offense in the league (108.8) and 2nd best defense (99.5). I think it's clear what Pippen's impact was in the regular season.
In the Finals the Bulls were lead in +/- and defensively by Kukoc by a wide margin. Offensively Jordan (106.0) had a small margin over Kukoc (105.8). Definitely not a carry job here.

That's why Mj can insert into any system and do well. LbJs weakness on other hand (shooting and post game early in his game limited the system his in).

Uhmm, I thought the system always was the triangle. Jordan was 6-0 with the triangle. Actually 6-2 if you count 1990 and 1995. Any system other than that he is 0-7. And the triangle (Phil/Tex) has proven it's worth way beyond Jordan too. 5 championships in 7 finals during 11 other seasons.

[AEnigma]

Elite scorers had it so tough under illegal defence rules.

[Colbinii]

Pippen only had half of the games in '98 and the Bulls still managed 62 wins and Pippen was carried in the finals that year.

The Bulls were 24-11 (the 4th record in the NBA). They had the 12th offense lead by Jordan with a 105.7 Ortg. They had the 3rd defense lead by Kukoc (95.0), Longley (95.8), Harper (95.9) and then Jordan (96.4).
Then Pippen came back and they went 38-9 with the 4th best offense in the league (108.8) and 2nd best defense (99.5). I think it's clear what Pippen's impact was in the regular season.
In the Finals the Bulls were lead in +/- and defensively by Kukoc by a wide margin. Offensively Jordan (106.0) had a small margin over Kukoc (105.8). Definitely not a carry job here.

That's why Mj can insert into any system and do well. LbJs weakness on other hand (shooting and post game early in his game limited the system his in).

Uhmm, I thought the system always was the triangle. Jordan was 6-0 with the triangle. Actually 6-2 if you count 1990 and 1995. Any system other than that he is 0-7. And the triangle (Phil/Tex) has proven it's worth way beyond Jordan too. 5 championships in 7 finals during 11 other seasons.

The Triangle was the perfect offense for Jordan. It provided key spacing for Jordan to operate, simplified decision making for everyone including Pippen and Jordan and scaled exceptionally well when additional playmakers were added [See Kukoc].

The Traingle attacked Illegal Defenses as well as any offensive philosophy during the 1990s and schematically perhaps only the Stockton/Malone Pick and Roll was as effective [But this took a hit in the post-season as Stockton wasn't good enough as a scorer to attack the 2 on 2].

RE: Illegal Defenses

Do people really not understand how Illegal defenses affected the game? It provided artificial spacing. Jordan required spacing just as someone like LeBron did and Jordan benefited from the spacing of Illegal Defense just as LeBron did from the Corner 3.

[Colbinii]

Elite scorers had it so tough under illegal defence rules.

Yeah it was rough when Mark Eaton could stand on the 3 point line and his man was forced to stay in the vicinity of him, removing all rim protection from the equation.

[Stalwart]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

[70sFan]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

It was much easier to score in the 1990s than in the 1960s. I hope you keep that in mind and have Wilt as your GOAT scorer.

[Homer38]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

This is more easy now(since 2017)only because of the raise of the 3 points shot.It was not the case for the first 13 years of LBJ(2004 to 2016) compared to the first 9 years for Jordan.Outside of the pistons at their peak and the knicks under Riley(who had a below average offense with that)the defense in his era were nothing special

[falcolombardi]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

Today as in 2018-2022? Sure

But the league from 85-98 had lower pace and efficiency than the league from 2004-2017

For the most part of his prime lebron played in a slower and less efficient league where zone defense made it harder to score rules-wise.

Is only aftee the late 2010's spacing explosion that the league catched up (and passed by) jordan era scoring ease wise

[falcolombardi]

Pippen only had half of the games in '98 and the Bulls still managed 62 wins and Pippen was carried in the finals that year.

The Bulls were 24-11 (the 4th record in the NBA). They had the 12th offense lead by Jordan with a 105.7 Ortg. They had the 3rd defense lead by Kukoc (95.0), Longley (95.8), Harper (95.9) and then Jordan (96.4).
Then Pippen came back and they went 38-9 with the 4th best offense in the league (108.8) and 2nd best defense (99.5). I think it's clear what Pippen's impact was in the regular season.
In the Finals the Bulls were lead in +/- and defensively by Kukoc by a wide margin. Offensively Jordan (106.0) had a small margin over Kukoc (105.8). Definitely not a carry job here.

That's why Mj can insert into any system and do well. LbJs weakness on other hand (shooting and post game early in his game limited the system his in).

Uhmm, I thought the system always was the triangle. Jordan was 6-0 with the triangle. Actually 6-2 if you count 1990 and 1995. Any system other than that he is 0-7. And the triangle (Phil/Tex) has proven it's worth way beyond Jordan too. 5 championships in 7 finals during 11 other seasons.

The Triangle was the perfect offense for Jordan. It provided key spacing for Jordan to operate, simplified decision making for everyone including Pippen and Jordan and scaled exceptionally well when additional playmakers were added [See Kukoc].

The Traingle attacked Illegal Defenses as well as any offensive philosophy during the 1990s and schematically perhaps only the Stockton/Malone Pick and Roll was as effective [But this took a hit in the post-season as Stockton wasn't good enough as a scorer to attack the 2 on 2].

RE: Illegal Defenses

Do people really not understand how Illegal defenses affected the game? It provided artificial spacing. Jordan required spacing just as someone like LeBron did and Jordan benefited from the spacing of Illegal Defense just as LeBron did from the Corner 3.

.

The minimizing/outright forgetting of illegal defense and the mythologization of pre 2005 handchecking is one of the weirder thinghs that happened in basketball discourse

[Mazter]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

I'm really curious as to why you, or anyone for that matter, think it's easier to score.

[Colbinii]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

I'm really curious as to why you, or anyone for that matter, think it's easier to score.

Because defenses have gotten worse as a result of strategies being dumbed down, availability of analytics have decreased, coaching has gotten worse and player tracking has gotten worse. The lack of technology in todays league has resulted in offensive players having to face weaker defenses.

[Colbinii]

The Bulls were 24-11 (the 4th record in the NBA). They had the 12th offense lead by Jordan with a 105.7 Ortg. They had the 3rd defense lead by Kukoc (95.0), Longley (95.8), Harper (95.9) and then Jordan (96.4).
Then Pippen came back and they went 38-9 with the 4th best offense in the league (108.8) and 2nd best defense (99.5). I think it's clear what Pippen's impact was in the regular season.
In the Finals the Bulls were lead in +/- and defensively by Kukoc by a wide margin. Offensively Jordan (106.0) had a small margin over Kukoc (105.8). Definitely not a carry job here.


Uhmm, I thought the system always was the triangle. Jordan was 6-0 with the triangle. Actually 6-2 if you count 1990 and 1995. Any system other than that he is 0-7. And the triangle (Phil/Tex) has proven it's worth way beyond Jordan too. 5 championships in 7 finals during 11 other seasons.

The Triangle was the perfect offense for Jordan. It provided key spacing for Jordan to operate, simplified decision making for everyone including Pippen and Jordan and scaled exceptionally well when additional playmakers were added [See Kukoc].

The Traingle attacked Illegal Defenses as well as any offensive philosophy during the 1990s and schematically perhaps only the Stockton/Malone Pick and Roll was as effective [But this took a hit in the post-season as Stockton wasn't good enough as a scorer to attack the 2 on 2].

RE: Illegal Defenses

Do people really not understand how Illegal defenses affected the game? It provided artificial spacing. Jordan required spacing just as someone like LeBron did and Jordan benefited from the spacing of Illegal Defense just as LeBron did from the Corner 3.

.

The minimizing/outright forgetting of illegal defense and the mythologization of pre 2005 handchecking is one of the weirder thinghs that happened in basketball discourse

It is almost as if people who state this have an agenda when posting

[Stalwart]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

It was much easier to score in the 1990s than in the 1960s. I hope you keep that in mind and have Wilt as your GOAT scorer.

I dont agree with that lol

[Homer38]

So are we denying how easy it is to score in todays game? You guys have a problem with reality. Always trying to twist it.

It was much easier to score in the 1990s than in the 1960s. I hope you keep that in mind and have Wilt as your GOAT scorer.

I dont agree with that lol

why?