2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[falcolombardi]

pre 80's ball averaged 102~ points per 100 at best, 2020's ball averaged 112

what was good enough scoring pre 80's is a -10 offense today, and that is before accounting for modern players not playing a midrange based game so they wouldnt be as good at playing that kind of basketball

playing a pre 80's style game spacing inside and shot profile wise is basically a 10~ point handicap

I don't think that was his point. I think he was noting that the number of defenders in space down in the paint was something manageable for a lot of the more powerful/creative finishers, etc

i think here is relevant to remember why is it thst we use relative to league average efficiency when comparing across eras. is because if we used raw numbers we would have to see that julius erving was a bad efficiency scorer or than the average center today is a better finisher than wilt

if julius erving played today and scored equally and exactly as well as in his peak with the nets he would quickly find himself as a bench player, meaning that for him to be as good as he was in the 70's he would need to have a better shot profile with more 3's and easier spacing for him, his 70's scoring wouldnt be good enough today

but if you're able to get TO the basket for a high-efficiency finish and/or drawn contact, then that's something else.

the heat player who can do that was injured and airballing jumpers as a consequence, their other guys are more limited by weaker athletism or skill

so we've seen teams like the Warriors who are able to do a little more in between are more resilient offenses.

are you maybe thinking of the suns? warriors are one of the most "3 or lay ups" teams today, they go about it in a unusual way by not spamming pick and roll but almost all their shots end as 3's or drives/cuts to the paint

suns and bulls were maybe the most "do stuff in between the paint and 3 point line" in the playoffs. the suns offense collapsed and the bulls one was outright murdered by bucks D

doing more stuff in the middle is not automatically gonna give you a higher offense floor but a lower ceiling, you could just as easily end up shooting 35% in 2 point jumpers instead of 30% on 3's and make the whole thingh even worse

Miami was a +1.8% rTS team at 113.7 ORTG (+1.7), ranked 10th in the league on O. Butler and Lowry look very much hampered by injury.

this^, miami was not a great offense, they are facubg a great defense, and did so with by far their best offensive player hurt, it was always gonna be ugly unless their other players stepped up, which they didnt

[tsherkin]

the heat player who can do that was injured and airballing jumpers as a consequence, their other guys are more limited by weaker athletism or skill

Yeah, like I said, Miami wasn't a stunner to begin with and their lead guys may be playing, but they are not healthy. So they haven't been able to pressure Boston the way they might normally have done otherwise.

are you thinking of the suns? warriors are one of the most "3 or lay ups" teams today, they go about it in a unusual way but almost all their shots end as 3's or drives/cuts to the paint

No, I wasn't thinking in terms of median offensive approach, I was thinking of their ability to get offense in multiple locations and avenues of attack when the 3 isn't working. I wasn't suggesting that teams need to do more in the mid-range all the time, just that they need to have the capability to do so when other attacks aren't working.

Miami was a +1.8% rTS team at 113.7 ORTG (+1.7), ranked 10th in the league on O. Butler and Lowry look very much hampered by injury.

this^, miami was not a great offense, they are facubg a great defense, and did so with by far their best offensive player hurt, it was always gonna be ugly unless their other players stepped up, which they didnt[/quote]

Exactly, yes.

[Doctor MJ]

Ec Mvp will be interesting if we close it out in 6..............think voters will have a tough time deciding between the Jays

totally forgot those awards existed. hmm i think it'd probably end up going to tatum if the series ended today. voters often seem to care about how a player performed in wins and JB's 40 point game might be given less weight because it was in a loss.

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's going to be a major pull to give the award to the team's established star. If the first Magic Johnson award goes to Andrew Wiggins, it sends a message to everyone that these awards are meaningless.

I also think there's likely to be a major pull to give Curry awards like this because of the Iggy Finals MVP. Frankly, Wiggins probably has a better argument than Iggy ever did, but if GS wins and Curry doesn't win the award, THAT will be the headline, which is not what I'd expect the NBA wants.

This isn't to say that Tatum will necessarily have the edge over Brown if Brown leads his team in PPG, but in any kind of tough choice, I'd guess there will be a push toward rewarding the guys who are most analogous to the Magics & Birds rather than the Worthys & Maxwells.

[jalengreen]

Ec Mvp will be interesting if we close it out in 6..............think voters will have a tough time deciding between the Jays

totally forgot those awards existed. hmm i think it'd probably end up going to tatum if the series ended today. voters often seem to care about how a player performed in wins and JB's 40 point game might be given less weight because it was in a loss.

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's going to be a major pull to give the award to the team's established star. If the first Magic Johnson award goes to Andrew Wiggins, it sends a message to everyone that these awards are meaningless.

I also think there's likely to be a major pull to give Curry awards like this because of the Iggy Finals MVP. Frankly, Wiggins probably has a better argument than Iggy ever did, but if GS wins and Curry doesn't win the award, THAT will be the headline, which is not what I'd expect the NBA wants.

This isn't to say that Tatum will necessarily have the edge over Brown if Brown leads his team in PPG, but in any kind of tough choice, I'd guess there will be a push toward rewarding the guys who are most analogous to the Magics & Birds rather than the Worthys & Maxwells.

wiggins has been great, no doubt.. but also relatively inefficient and IMO hasn't really been that effective guarding luka. it's not like he's making things particularly difficult for luka like iggy did with lebron. and steph's also definitely been better this series than 2015. so i think i'd probably say iguodala had a better case in the 2015 finals than wiggins does in this series

with that said, i agree that there will be a push for the stars to get it. especially because the magic johnson award going to steph is probably gonna be seen as particularly fitting

[tsherkin]

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's going to be a major pull to give the award to the team's established star. If the first Magic Johnson award goes to Andrew Wiggins, it sends a message to everyone that these awards are meaningless.

They haven't bothered to fix Finals MVP voting, so why would they attend to these new awards any differently?

[falcolombardi]

totally forgot those awards existed. hmm i think it'd probably end up going to tatum if the series ended today. voters often seem to care about how a player performed in wins and JB's 40 point game might be given less weight because it was in a loss.

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's going to be a major pull to give the award to the team's established star. If the first Magic Johnson award goes to Andrew Wiggins, it sends a message to everyone that these awards are meaningless.

I also think there's likely to be a major pull to give Curry awards like this because of the Iggy Finals MVP. Frankly, Wiggins probably has a better argument than Iggy ever did, but if GS wins and Curry doesn't win the award, THAT will be the headline, which is not what I'd expect the NBA wants.

This isn't to say that Tatum will necessarily have the edge over Brown if Brown leads his team in PPG, but in any kind of tough choice, I'd guess there will be a push toward rewarding the guys who are most analogous to the Magics & Birds rather than the Worthys & Maxwells.

wiggins has been great, no doubt.. but also relatively inefficient and IMO hasn't really been that effective guarding luka. it's not like he's making things particularly difficult for luka like iggy did with lebron. and steph's also definitely been better this series than 2015. so i think i'd probably say iguodala had a better case in the 2015 finals than wiggins does in this series

with that said, i agree that there will be a push for the stars to get it. especially because the magic johnson award going to steph is probably gonna be seen as particularly fitting

as good of a defender as iggy was, i never felt he was a particularly good matchup on lebron, too small for the matchup imo

lebron inefficiency that series looks a lot less iguodala caused when you realize that he struggled to score all that year and playoffs and that was -before- he lost love and kyrie and was forced to go against warriors best in the league defense

tldr: i am high-ish on iggy, but even the "made lebron score inefficiently" angle for his fmvp is overated imo

between the volume,no irving or love, less spacing with big lineups, draymond and bogut inside the finals is easily lebron best performance in those playoffs. and iggy was overcredited for holding lebron to the same bad efficiency he had all the postseason

[Doctor MJ]

totally forgot those awards existed. hmm i think it'd probably end up going to tatum if the series ended today. voters often seem to care about how a player performed in wins and JB's 40 point game might be given less weight because it was in a loss.

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's going to be a major pull to give the award to the team's established star. If the first Magic Johnson award goes to Andrew Wiggins, it sends a message to everyone that these awards are meaningless.

I also think there's likely to be a major pull to give Curry awards like this because of the Iggy Finals MVP. Frankly, Wiggins probably has a better argument than Iggy ever did, but if GS wins and Curry doesn't win the award, THAT will be the headline, which is not what I'd expect the NBA wants.

This isn't to say that Tatum will necessarily have the edge over Brown if Brown leads his team in PPG, but in any kind of tough choice, I'd guess there will be a push toward rewarding the guys who are most analogous to the Magics & Birds rather than the Worthys & Maxwells.

wiggins has been great, no doubt.. but also relatively inefficient and IMO hasn't really been that effective guarding luka. it's not like he's making things particularly difficult for luka like iggy did with lebron. and steph's also definitely been better this series than 2015. so i think i'd probably say iguodala had a better case in the 2015 finals than wiggins does in this series

with that said, i agree that there will be a push for the stars to get it. especially because the magic johnson award going to steph is probably gonna be seen as particularly fitting

Wiggins, just like Iggy in '15, has led the team in +/- in the series in question which aligns with those who have a perception of him being the key difference maker. While I understand that people probably aren't looking at that stat to make decisions, people aren't just imagining it if they feel like a guy like Iggy/Wiggins having unique success in the series.

And to be clear, because people are always acting as if I'm saying we should take +/- literally:

I'm very critical of the Iggy Finals MVP and would likely be critical of a Wiggins WCF MVP. Even aside from noise concerns, the guy who +/- says is most impactful in a series isn't necessarily the MVP imho.

[Doctor MJ]

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's going to be a major pull to give the award to the team's established star. If the first Magic Johnson award goes to Andrew Wiggins, it sends a message to everyone that these awards are meaningless.

They haven't bothered to fix Finals MVP voting, so why would they attend to these new awards any differently?

Honestly, I doubt an Iguodala-type wins Finals MVP again any time soon and it may easily never happen again. While the official procedures haven't changed, that doesn't mean that the voters aren't influenced being what's in the water. Back in 2015, it was crystal clear that those voting for Iguodala were avoiding choosing between Curry & LeBron, and while at the time I think they probably felt clever, I doubt anyone thinks that move aged well.

But I also think that doing things like naming the awards after Magic & Bird further push things in this direction. One might think this is no different from Russell, but since Magic & Bird were specifically offensive stars who were the faces of a rivalry, I think it puts that much more of a nudge on the voters to "Not do the Iguodala BS again".

[jalengreen]

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's going to be a major pull to give the award to the team's established star. If the first Magic Johnson award goes to Andrew Wiggins, it sends a message to everyone that these awards are meaningless.

I also think there's likely to be a major pull to give Curry awards like this because of the Iggy Finals MVP. Frankly, Wiggins probably has a better argument than Iggy ever did, but if GS wins and Curry doesn't win the award, THAT will be the headline, which is not what I'd expect the NBA wants.

This isn't to say that Tatum will necessarily have the edge over Brown if Brown leads his team in PPG, but in any kind of tough choice, I'd guess there will be a push toward rewarding the guys who are most analogous to the Magics & Birds rather than the Worthys & Maxwells.

wiggins has been great, no doubt.. but also relatively inefficient and IMO hasn't really been that effective guarding luka. it's not like he's making things particularly difficult for luka like iggy did with lebron. and steph's also definitely been better this series than 2015. so i think i'd probably say iguodala had a better case in the 2015 finals than wiggins does in this series

with that said, i agree that there will be a push for the stars to get it. especially because the magic johnson award going to steph is probably gonna be seen as particularly fitting

Wiggins, just like Iggy in '15, has led the team in +/- in the series in question which aligns with those who have a perception of him being the key difference maker. While I understand that people probably aren't looking at that stat to make decisions, people aren't just imagining it if they feel like a guy like Iggy/Wiggins having unique success in the series.

And to be clear, because people are always acting as if I'm saying we should take +/- literally:

I'm very critical of the Iggy Finals MVP and would likely be critical of a Wiggins WCF MVP. Even aside from noise concerns, the guy who +/- says is most impactful in a series isn't necessarily the MVP imho.

while true, i'd add that steph and wiggins have both had very high +/- in the three wins and a very low +/- in the loss. both have the same trend there with wiggins' just having a bit higher +/- on average

in 2015, iggy had a positive +/- in every game while steph had a negative +/- in two games ... the two losses

the absolute difference between steph's +/- and iggy/wiggins' in these two series is about the same i believe, but i think the contrast in steph having a negative +/- in the two 2015 losses while iggy had a positive +/- every game probably had an impact on voters

[jalengreen]

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's going to be a major pull to give the award to the team's established star. If the first Magic Johnson award goes to Andrew Wiggins, it sends a message to everyone that these awards are meaningless.

I also think there's likely to be a major pull to give Curry awards like this because of the Iggy Finals MVP. Frankly, Wiggins probably has a better argument than Iggy ever did, but if GS wins and Curry doesn't win the award, THAT will be the headline, which is not what I'd expect the NBA wants.

This isn't to say that Tatum will necessarily have the edge over Brown if Brown leads his team in PPG, but in any kind of tough choice, I'd guess there will be a push toward rewarding the guys who are most analogous to the Magics & Birds rather than the Worthys & Maxwells.

wiggins has been great, no doubt.. but also relatively inefficient and IMO hasn't really been that effective guarding luka. it's not like he's making things particularly difficult for luka like iggy did with lebron. and steph's also definitely been better this series than 2015. so i think i'd probably say iguodala had a better case in the 2015 finals than wiggins does in this series

with that said, i agree that there will be a push for the stars to get it. especially because the magic johnson award going to steph is probably gonna be seen as particularly fitting

as good of a defender as iggy was, i never felt he was a particularly good matchup on lebron, too small for the matchup imo

lebron inefficiency that series looks a lot less iguodala caused when you realize that he struggled to score all that year and playoffs and that was -before- he lost love and kyrie and was forced to go against warriors best in the league defense

tldr: i am high-ish on iggy, but even the "made lebron score inefficiently" angle for his fmvp is overated imo

between the volume,no irving or love, less spacing with big lineups, draymond and bogut inside the finals is easily lebron best performance in those playoffs. and iggy was overcredited for holding lebron to the same bad efficiency he had all the postseason

"When Iguodala was in the game, LeBron James shot 38.1 percent from the field, scoring 26 points per 36 minutes with 2.9 turnovers. With Iguodala on the bench, James shot 44 percent, averaging 35 points per 36 minutes with 2.2 turnovers. With Iguodala as the primary defender, opponents shot 37.2 percent overall, and he gave up free throws the same percentage of time (10.8 percent) that he forced a turnover, via Synergy Sports."
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/andre-iguodalas-defense-on-lebron-helps-him-win-finals-mvp/

more stats about iguodala's defense on lebron here: https://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106613/iggy-makes-lebrons-shooting-iffy

the other reasons given (injuries, spacing, other defenders, etc) would be valid explanations if we were just comparing 2015 finals lebron to other versions of lebron... but when comparing 2015 finals lebron vs iguodala to 2015 finals lebron vs other defenders, those other variables are irrelevant IMO and don't explain the difference in production that we saw.

[70sFan]

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's going to be a major pull to give the award to the team's established star. If the first Magic Johnson award goes to Andrew Wiggins, it sends a message to everyone that these awards are meaningless.

I also think there's likely to be a major pull to give Curry awards like this because of the Iggy Finals MVP. Frankly, Wiggins probably has a better argument than Iggy ever did, but if GS wins and Curry doesn't win the award, THAT will be the headline, which is not what I'd expect the NBA wants.

This isn't to say that Tatum will necessarily have the edge over Brown if Brown leads his team in PPG, but in any kind of tough choice, I'd guess there will be a push toward rewarding the guys who are most analogous to the Magics & Birds rather than the Worthys & Maxwells.

wiggins has been great, no doubt.. but also relatively inefficient and IMO hasn't really been that effective guarding luka. it's not like he's making things particularly difficult for luka like iggy did with lebron. and steph's also definitely been better this series than 2015. so i think i'd probably say iguodala had a better case in the 2015 finals than wiggins does in this series

with that said, i agree that there will be a push for the stars to get it. especially because the magic johnson award going to steph is probably gonna be seen as particularly fitting

as good of a defender as iggy was, i never felt he was a particularly good matchup on lebron, too small for the matchup imo

lebron inefficiency that series looks a lot less iguodala caused when you realize that he struggled to score all that year and playoffs and that was -before- he lost love and kyrie and was forced to go against warriors best in the league defense

tldr: i am high-ish on iggy, but even the "made lebron score inefficiently" angle for his fmvp is overated imo

between the volume,no irving or love, less spacing with big lineups, draymond and bogut inside the finals is easily lebron best performance in those playoffs. and iggy was overcredited for holding lebron to the same bad efficiency he had all the postseason

Really? I think Iggy was overall the best defender on LeBron throughout his career.

[tsherkin]

Honestly, I doubt an Iguodala-type wins Finals MVP again any time soon and it may easily never happen again. While the official procedures haven't changed, that doesn't mean that the voters aren't influenced being what's in the water. Back in 2015, it was crystal clear that those voting for Iguodala were avoiding choosing between Curry & LeBron, and while at the time I think they probably felt clever, I doubt anyone thinks that move aged well.

But I also think that doing things like naming the awards after Magic & Bird further push things in this direction. One might think this is no different from Russell, but since Magic & Bird were specifically offensive stars who were the faces of a rivalry, I think it puts that much more of a nudge on the voters to "Not do the Iguodala BS again".

Interesting take, for sure. I think you might be overvaluing how the league will treat the awards due to the names, but at the same time, I hope you're right, because a level of appropriate perspective would be awesome in these awards. Maybe I'm just being too cynical, hehe.

[Doctor MJ]

Honestly, I doubt an Iguodala-type wins Finals MVP again any time soon and it may easily never happen again. While the official procedures haven't changed, that doesn't mean that the voters aren't influenced being what's in the water. Back in 2015, it was crystal clear that those voting for Iguodala were avoiding choosing between Curry & LeBron, and while at the time I think they probably felt clever, I doubt anyone thinks that move aged well.

But I also think that doing things like naming the awards after Magic & Bird further push things in this direction. One might think this is no different from Russell, but since Magic & Bird were specifically offensive stars who were the faces of a rivalry, I think it puts that much more of a nudge on the voters to "Not do the Iguodala BS again".

Interesting take, for sure. I think you might be overvaluing how the league will treat the awards due to the names, but at the same time, I hope you're right, because a level of appropriate perspective would be awesome in these awards. Maybe I'm just being too cynical, hehe.

See, I actually think my take is pretty cynical. On a purely logical level, one would expect that Iggy winning Finals MVP says something about how Finals MVP is decided, and thus would be predictive of future votes, so it's projecting quite a bit to suggest things will be different in the future.

On the other hand, on a purely logical level, Jerry West winning the first Finals MVP would suggest that Finals MVP voters wouldn't have a problem giving the Finals MVP to a guy on the losing team, yet in 2015 voters seemed so afraid of doing this that they managed to avoid giving it to either team's best player. And what I'm essentially arguing is that I think the blowback from that is likely to prevent it from ever happening again.

But as I say, I could be wrong...

[falcolombardi]

wiggins has been great, no doubt.. but also relatively inefficient and IMO hasn't really been that effective guarding luka. it's not like he's making things particularly difficult for luka like iggy did with lebron. and steph's also definitely been better this series than 2015. so i think i'd probably say iguodala had a better case in the 2015 finals than wiggins does in this series

with that said, i agree that there will be a push for the stars to get it. especially because the magic johnson award going to steph is probably gonna be seen as particularly fitting

as good of a defender as iggy was, i never felt he was a particularly good matchup on lebron, too small for the matchup imo

lebron inefficiency that series looks a lot less iguodala caused when you realize that he struggled to score all that year and playoffs and that was -before- he lost love and kyrie and was forced to go against warriors best in the league defense

tldr: i am high-ish on iggy, but even the "made lebron score inefficiently" angle for his fmvp is overated imo

between the volume,no irving or love, less spacing with big lineups, draymond and bogut inside the finals is easily lebron best performance in those playoffs. and iggy was overcredited for holding lebron to the same bad efficiency he had all the postseason

"When Iguodala was in the game, LeBron James shot 38.1 percent from the field, scoring 26 points per 36 minutes with 2.9 turnovers. With Iguodala on the bench, James shot 44 percent, averaging 35 points per 36 minutes with 2.2 turnovers. With Iguodala as the primary defender, opponents shot 37.2 percent overall, and he gave up free throws the same percentage of time (10.8 percent) that he forced a turnover, via Synergy Sports."
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/andre-iguodalas-defense-on-lebron-helps-him-win-finals-mvp/

more stats about iguodala's defense on lebron here: https://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106613/iggy-makes-lebrons-shooting-iffy

the other reasons given (injuries, spacing, other defenders, etc) would be valid explanations if we were just comparing 2015 finals lebron to other versions of lebron... but when comparing 2015 finals lebron vs iguodala to 2015 finals lebron vs other defenders, those other variables are irrelevant IMO and don't explain the difference in production that we saw.

point taken, but dont you agree with some of the thinghs i mention?

lebron was struggling to score all of 2015, he played against warriors with bad spacing and not much offensive help compared to earlier rounds and as a consequence faced more defensive attention and had to csrry a highrt offensive load to say nothingh of the advantage of having bogut and draymond as "partners" to contain lebron

all these thinghs made iggy job way easier than defending lebron normally would be and he did a great job at it as the stats you show prove but it was "easy mode" of sorts or as easy as defending prime lebron would get

[jalengreen]

as good of a defender as iggy was, i never felt he was a particularly good matchup on lebron, too small for the matchup imo

lebron inefficiency that series looks a lot less iguodala caused when you realize that he struggled to score all that year and playoffs and that was -before- he lost love and kyrie and was forced to go against warriors best in the league defense

tldr: i am high-ish on iggy, but even the "made lebron score inefficiently" angle for his fmvp is overated imo

between the volume,no irving or love, less spacing with big lineups, draymond and bogut inside the finals is easily lebron best performance in those playoffs. and iggy was overcredited for holding lebron to the same bad efficiency he had all the postseason

"When Iguodala was in the game, LeBron James shot 38.1 percent from the field, scoring 26 points per 36 minutes with 2.9 turnovers. With Iguodala on the bench, James shot 44 percent, averaging 35 points per 36 minutes with 2.2 turnovers. With Iguodala as the primary defender, opponents shot 37.2 percent overall, and he gave up free throws the same percentage of time (10.8 percent) that he forced a turnover, via Synergy Sports."
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/andre-iguodalas-defense-on-lebron-helps-him-win-finals-mvp/

more stats about iguodala's defense on lebron here: https://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106613/iggy-makes-lebrons-shooting-iffy

the other reasons given (injuries, spacing, other defenders, etc) would be valid explanations if we were just comparing 2015 finals lebron to other versions of lebron... but when comparing 2015 finals lebron vs iguodala to 2015 finals lebron vs other defenders, those other variables are irrelevant IMO and don't explain the difference in production that we saw.

point taken, but dont you agree with some of the thinghs i mention?

lebron was struggling to score all of 2015, he played against warriors with bad spacing and not much offensive help compared to earlier rounds and as a consequence faced more defensive attention and had to csrry a highrt offensive load to say nothingh of the advantage of having bogut and draymond as "partners" to contain lebron

all these thinghs made iggy job way easier than defending lebron normally would be and he did a great job at it as the stats you show prove but it was "easy mode" of sorts or as easy as defending prime lebron would get

oh i definitely agree with what i bolded. feels hard not to.

iguodala thrived defensively against lebron and made him struggle IMO, but due to all the factors around that series, it's not really something i'd really pay too much attention to in terms of judging lebron.

however i do think it's a factor that should've been considered (and was) for the FMVP voting as iggy was by far the most productive lebron defender in the series. and in comparison, i don't think wiggins has had close to the same level of value defending luka (even if he might not have the other factors in his favor making his job somewhat easier like iggy did)

[falcolombardi]

wiggins has been great, no doubt.. but also relatively inefficient and IMO hasn't really been that effective guarding luka. it's not like he's making things particularly difficult for luka like iggy did with lebron. and steph's also definitely been better this series than 2015. so i think i'd probably say iguodala had a better case in the 2015 finals than wiggins does in this series

with that said, i agree that there will be a push for the stars to get it. especially because the magic johnson award going to steph is probably gonna be seen as particularly fitting

as good of a defender as iggy was, i never felt he was a particularly good matchup on lebron, too small for the matchup imo

lebron inefficiency that series looks a lot less iguodala caused when you realize that he struggled to score all that year and playoffs and that was -before- he lost love and kyrie and was forced to go against warriors best in the league defense

tldr: i am high-ish on iggy, but even the "made lebron score inefficiently" angle for his fmvp is overated imo

between the volume,no irving or love, less spacing with big lineups, draymond and bogut inside the finals is easily lebron best performance in those playoffs. and iggy was overcredited for holding lebron to the same bad efficiency he had all the postseason

Really? I think Iggy was overall the best defender on LeBron throughout his career.

i would need to look into their matchup data and see if there is a trend of lebron significstively underperforming against iguodala coverage, but from a pure eye test/theorycal point of view it didnt feel like a good matchup for iggy

lebron has a safe if not ultra creative handle that is hard to pressure into turnovers and lebron has a big mass advantage to do the stuff he likes to do, againsg a lighter wing or a smaller guard or a player with a looser handle iggy combo of lenght/strenght/intelligence was wrecking but i never felt lebron was a ideal match for hin

as i mention i think the 2015 finals efficiency of lebron is not somethingh i take at face value as he struggled to score at above league average efficiency all those playoffs (probably caused by his year long back issues) + draymond/bogut + bad spacing for cavs and lack of scoring help. just too many thinghs going right for iggy there

and then we have other 3 finals after that where lebron scored much better than 2015 making that first finals look like an anomaly

[tsherkin]

See, I actually think my take is pretty cynical. On a purely logical level, one would expect that Iggy winning Finals MVP says something about how Finals MVP is decided, and thus would be predictive of future votes, so it's projecting quite a bit to suggest things will be different in the future.

On the other hand, on a purely logical level, Jerry West winning the first Finals MVP would suggest that Finals MVP voters wouldn't have a problem giving the Finals MVP to a guy on the losing team, yet in 2015 voters seemed so afraid of doing this that they managed to avoid giving it to either team's best player. And what I'm essentially arguing is that I think the blowback from that is likely to prevent it from ever happening again.

But as I say, I could be wrong...

Only one way for us to find out, I suppose!

[sp6r=underrated]

I know people are talking about Embiid moping about the MVP as a reason why he came out flat, but did he actually say this explicitly?

To be clear: I think he looks foolish for his "what more do I have to do?" whining, but it's not quite the same thing.

Also: I don't blame Embiid for responding to Simmons' Jalen Green comment that way. It's obvious to us that Simmons has nothing personal against Green, but it would be wise for media people to avoid language that looks like a personal attack.

believe this is the full quote

that full quote actually doesnt sound that bad tbh

he doesnt outright say he was robbed or anythingh like that and doesnt throw shade at jokic as some of the criticisms implied

my thoughts is that this is why athleyrs give such cookie cutter answets most of the time, to avoid controversies like these

Watch on YouTube

[Texas Chuck]

When Dallas is the first team to win a series after being down 0-3 I feel confident neither Curry nor Wiggins win will the Magic Johnson.

[falcolombardi]

When Dallas is the first team to win a series after being down 0-3 I feel confident neither Curry nor Wiggins win will the Magic Johnson.

if dallas won the series the mvp award is the last thingh we would be talking about