Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#581 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:15 am

LakerLegend wrote:
Goudelock wrote:
Spoiler:
70sFan wrote:


Wilt was quite explosive as well.


And that was old-man Wilt too. I kind of agree that Chamberlain's short-area agility probably wasn't as great as young Shaq's though. But it's such a small margin it seems like I'm being overly critical.


70's fan posting sped up clips like usual. Show me Wilt doing any of the clips I posted on this page:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1940751&start=60

There's also an interview with Wilt where he compares himself to Shaq and says Shaq uses his body better in terms of posting up and leveraging his size and power.

Show us what the correct speed is.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#582 » by Djoker » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:52 pm

I don't think it's a coincidence that the next episode is Kobe. Next week Tuesday is a 1-year anniversary of his death. RIP legend.

As for his peak I'm pretty sure it will be 2006-2008.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#583 » by freethedevil » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:45 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:
Goudelock wrote:
Spoiler:


And that was old-man Wilt too. I kind of agree that Chamberlain's short-area agility probably wasn't as great as young Shaq's though. But it's such a small margin it seems like I'm being overly critical.


70's fan posting sped up clips like usual. Show me Wilt doing any of the clips I posted on this page:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1940751&start=60

There's also an interview with Wilt where he compares himself to Shaq and says Shaq uses his body better in terms of posting up and leveraging his size and power.

Show us what the correct speed is.

Yes please. If you're gonna claim 70's was misrepresenting wilt's speed, show us th eoriginal clip
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#584 » by kendogg » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:36 pm

the video was good, but also didn't like the part about wilt. though wilt is the greatest what if case...what if he had a decent coach earlier in his career? wilt simply did what he was asked to by the team. he had an ego yes, but he was a team player. he was just not lucky enough to have a good coach until hannum. he probably learned as much from russ actually. wilt and russ were good friends.

also he kind of skirts around shaq's defense a bit. doesnt really go into his lazy perimeter defense too much, and doesnt really go too deep into his paint protection either. shaq simply prevented a lot of paint action from ever being attempted because of his size and strength. wilt was the same
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#585 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:43 pm

kendogg wrote:the video was good, but also didn't like the part about wilt. though wilt is the greatest what if case...what if he had a decent coach earlier in his career? wilt simply did what he was asked to by the team. he had an ego yes, but he was a team player. he was just not lucky enough to have a good coach until hannum. he probably learned as much from russ actually. wilt and russ were good friends.

also he kind of skirts around shaq's defense a bit. doesnt really go into his lazy perimeter defense too much, and doesnt really go too deep into his paint protection either. shaq simply prevented a lot of paint action from ever being attempted because of his size and strength. wilt was the same


I think blaming Chamberlain's short comings on his coach is pretty weak. He was a pain in the ass to handle in general, pretty much every coach he had whether they were good or not had a lot of problems with him. Most of the times when Chamberlain changed the way he played was because a coach had to fight tooth and nail to convince him.

He thought he was bigger than the league, and at that point he was right - it may have affected the way he played but that is not really due to not having a good coach. If Wilt Chamberlain had Greg Popovich as a coach in the 60s nothing would change much in the grand scheme of things.


Shaq is not much different to be honest. Shaq had weaknesses that he could have fixed but chose not to and he thought he was bigger than life. In the grand scheme of things Shaq wasn't any better than Wilt as a player.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#586 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:28 am

Peak Shaq committed a lot of what would be called offensive fouls in Wilt's era. But people defending Shaq were also getting away with what would have been fouls in Wilt's era.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#587 » by freethedevil » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:15 am

kendogg wrote:the video was good, but also didn't like the part about wilt. though wilt is the greatest what if case...what if he had a decent coach earlier in his career? wilt simply did what he was asked to by the team. he had an ego yes, but he was a team player. he was just not lucky enough to have a good coach until hannum. he probably learned as much from russ actually. wilt and russ were good friends.

also he kind of skirts around shaq's defense a bit. doesnt really go into his lazy perimeter defense too much, and doesnt really go too deep into his paint protection either. shaq simply prevented a lot of paint action from ever being attempted because of his size and strength. wilt was the same

Wilt is literally just KG with pace-inflated box stats lol
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#588 » by kendogg » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:40 am

freethedevil wrote:
kendogg wrote:the video was good, but also didn't like the part about wilt. though wilt is the greatest what if case...what if he had a decent coach earlier in his career? wilt simply did what he was asked to by the team. he had an ego yes, but he was a team player. he was just not lucky enough to have a good coach until hannum. he probably learned as much from russ actually. wilt and russ were good friends.

also he kind of skirts around shaq's defense a bit. doesnt really go into his lazy perimeter defense too much, and doesnt really go too deep into his paint protection either. shaq simply prevented a lot of paint action from ever being attempted because of his size and strength. wilt was the same

Wilt is literally just KG with pace-inflated box stats lol



Did you get dropped on your head? KG and Wilt are nothing alike as players. Wilt came into the league at 280 and within a couple years played around 300 lbs and later in his career he was closer to 320. With modern weight training, he'd be even bigger. Shaq went from about 315 to as big as 350 if he was actually in shape. 380 is just fat Shaq. But by all accounts Wilt was still stronger than Shaq at all points in their respective careers despite his extra weight. Wilt just looks skinnier because he has very long legs and short shorts. KG's closest comparison is Dirk. A dude who started at SF and ended at C and operated primarily in the high post on offense.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#589 » by freethedevil » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:58 am

kendogg wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
kendogg wrote:the video was good, but also didn't like the part about wilt. though wilt is the greatest what if case...what if he had a decent coach earlier in his career? wilt simply did what he was asked to by the team. he had an ego yes, but he was a team player. he was just not lucky enough to have a good coach until hannum. he probably learned as much from russ actually. wilt and russ were good friends.

also he kind of skirts around shaq's defense a bit. doesnt really go into his lazy perimeter defense too much, and doesnt really go too deep into his paint protection either. shaq simply prevented a lot of paint action from ever being attempted because of his size and strength. wilt was the same

Wilt is literally just KG with pace-inflated box stats lol



Did you get dropped on your head? KG and Wilt are nothing alike as players. Wilt came into the league at 280 and within a couple years played around 300 lbs and later in his career he was closer to 320. With modern weight training, he'd be even bigger. Shaq went from about 315 to as big as 350 if he was actually in shape. 380 is just fat Shaq. But by all accounts Wilt was still stronger than Shaq at all points in their respective careers despite his extra weight. Wilt just looks skinnier because he has very long legs and short shorts. KG's closest comparison is Dirk. A dude who started at SF and ended at C and operated primarily in the high post on offense.

I forgot how players can only be compared via how much they weigh.

Both are limited offensive players(on an all time standard) at least who were league leading in rebounds and scored on similar volume and effiency in the right context. Both were as or more valuable defensively, and both are players where their team success understates their actual impact


KG is one of the most valuable regular season players ever and still murders players like kobe, dirk, wade, ect ierms of playoff impact despite far from ideal circumstances. KG has been able to demosntrate impact higher than dirk or kobe in very context imaginable from 54 win contenders, to teams that miss the playoffs tp teams that win 66 games and win the title, providing a rather bullet proof case that KG is a much better player, at least in terms of winning, than a wide variety of players with more team success.

Wilt has taken russell to 7 while clearly outmatched and smashed russell with a better team demonstrating that the 9 ring gap doesn't really represent russell being far better than wilt. Getting offended at the comparison is baffling. The argument for wilt being rated higher than his resume is identical to Garnett's. I can't seriously take anyone arguing wilt as a peer of russell if they're gogin to turn around and try to tie KG to Dirk.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#590 » by colts18 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:24 am

Wilt limited offensively. Lmao. I guess all of these 1st place finishes didn't exist. Neither did 7 scoring titles, 9 1st place FG% finishes or an assist title as a Center.

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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#591 » by kendogg » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:27 am

wilt limited offensively LMAO you on drugs
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#592 » by LakerLegend » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:40 am

freethedevil wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:
70's fan posting sped up clips like usual. Show me Wilt doing any of the clips I posted on this page:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1940751&start=60

There's also an interview with Wilt where he compares himself to Shaq and says Shaq uses his body better in terms of posting up and leveraging his size and power.

Show us what the correct speed is.

Yes please. If you're gonna claim 70's was misrepresenting wilt's speed, show us th eoriginal clip


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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#593 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:44 am

kendogg wrote:the video was good, but also didn't like the part about wilt. though wilt is the greatest what if case...what if he had a decent coach earlier in his career? wilt simply did what he was asked to by the team. he had an ego yes, but he was a team player. he was just not lucky enough to have a good coach until hannum. he probably learned as much from russ actually. wilt and russ were good friends.

for these "pioneers" a big part of their success is also the ability to figure out things and be ahead of times.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#594 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:47 am

freethedevil wrote:
kendogg wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Wilt is literally just KG with pace-inflated box stats lol



Did you get dropped on your head? KG and Wilt are nothing alike as players. Wilt came into the league at 280 and within a couple years played around 300 lbs and later in his career he was closer to 320. With modern weight training, he'd be even bigger. Shaq went from about 315 to as big as 350 if he was actually in shape. 380 is just fat Shaq. But by all accounts Wilt was still stronger than Shaq at all points in their respective careers despite his extra weight. Wilt just looks skinnier because he has very long legs and short shorts. KG's closest comparison is Dirk. A dude who started at SF and ended at C and operated primarily in the high post on offense.

I forgot how players can only be compared via how much they weigh.

Both are limited offensive players(on an all time standard) at least who were league leading in rebounds and scored on similar volume and effiency in the right context. Both were as or more valuable defensively, and both are players where their team success understates their actual impact


KG is one of the most valuable regular season players ever and still murders players like kobe, dirk, wade, ect ierms of playoff impact despite far from ideal circumstances. KG has been able to demosntrate impact higher than dirk or kobe in very context imaginable from 54 win contenders, to teams that miss the playoffs tp teams that win 66 games and win the title, providing a rather bullet proof case that KG is a much better player, at least in terms of winning, than a wide variety of players with more team success.

Wilt has taken russell to 7 while clearly outmatched and smashed russell with a better team demonstrating that the 9 ring gap doesn't really represent russell being far better than wilt. Getting offended at the comparison is baffling. The argument for wilt being rated higher than his resume is identical to Garnett's. I can't seriously take anyone arguing wilt as a peer of russell if they're gogin to turn around and try to tie KG to Dirk.

KG murdering Dirk in terms of playoff impact is just a ridiculous statement, really.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#595 » by 70sFan » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:31 am

LakerLegend wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Show us what the correct speed is.

Yes please. If you're gonna claim 70's was misrepresenting wilt's speed, show us th eoriginal clip



I could be wrong, but this is not the game I posted clip from... What are you trying to prove?
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#596 » by freethedevil » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:23 am

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
kendogg wrote:

Did you get dropped on your head? KG and Wilt are nothing alike as players. Wilt came into the league at 280 and within a couple years played around 300 lbs and later in his career he was closer to 320. With modern weight training, he'd be even bigger. Shaq went from about 315 to as big as 350 if he was actually in shape. 380 is just fat Shaq. But by all accounts Wilt was still stronger than Shaq at all points in their respective careers despite his extra weight. Wilt just looks skinnier because he has very long legs and short shorts. KG's closest comparison is Dirk. A dude who started at SF and ended at C and operated primarily in the high post on offense.

I forgot how players can only be compared via how much they weigh.

Both are limited offensive players(on an all time standard) at least who were league leading in rebounds and scored on similar volume and effiency in the right context. Both were as or more valuable defensively, and both are players where their team success understates their actual impact


KG is one of the most valuable regular season players ever and still murders players like kobe, dirk, wade, ect ierms of playoff impact despite far from ideal circumstances. KG has been able to demosntrate impact higher than dirk or kobe in very context imaginable from 54 win contenders, to teams that miss the playoffs tp teams that win 66 games and win the title, providing a rather bullet proof case that KG is a much better player, at least in terms of winning, than a wide variety of players with more team success.

Wilt has taken russell to 7 while clearly outmatched and smashed russell with a better team demonstrating that the 9 ring gap doesn't really represent russell being far better than wilt. Getting offended at the comparison is baffling. The argument for wilt being rated higher than his resume is identical to Garnett's. I can't seriously take anyone arguing wilt as a peer of russell if they're gogin to turn around and try to tie KG to Dirk.

KG murdering Dirk in terms of playoff impact is just a ridiculous statement, really.


I really don't care about you getting offended by hyperbole. They aren't remotely close by any measure of impact in the playoffs or the regular season and this is true despite us seeing KG in a wide variety of situations.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#597 » by sansterre » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:41 am

freethedevil wrote:KG is one of the most valuable regular season players ever and still murders players like kobe, dirk, wade, ect ierms of playoff impact despite far from ideal circumstances.

In the name of clarity, when you say "playoff impact" are you relying primarily in +/- data, adjusted and otherwise?
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#598 » by Heej » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:12 pm

In his defense the limited offensively line is somewhat accurate in that Wilt could never balance scoring and playmaking, it was always either or for him. The best players blend the 2 into something greater than the sum of its parts, while weaker players oscillate back and forth between the two modes.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#599 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:13 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
freethedevil wrote:I forgot how players can only be compared via how much they weigh.

Both are limited offensive players(on an all time standard) at least who were league leading in rebounds and scored on similar volume and effiency in the right context. Both were as or more valuable defensively, and both are players where their team success understates their actual impact


KG is one of the most valuable regular season players ever and still murders players like kobe, dirk, wade, ect ierms of playoff impact despite far from ideal circumstances. KG has been able to demosntrate impact higher than dirk or kobe in very context imaginable from 54 win contenders, to teams that miss the playoffs tp teams that win 66 games and win the title, providing a rather bullet proof case that KG is a much better player, at least in terms of winning, than a wide variety of players with more team success.

Wilt has taken russell to 7 while clearly outmatched and smashed russell with a better team demonstrating that the 9 ring gap doesn't really represent russell being far better than wilt. Getting offended at the comparison is baffling. The argument for wilt being rated higher than his resume is identical to Garnett's. I can't seriously take anyone arguing wilt as a peer of russell if they're gogin to turn around and try to tie KG to Dirk.

KG murdering Dirk in terms of playoff impact is just a ridiculous statement, really.


I really don't care about you getting offended by hyperbole. They aren't remotely close by any measure of impact in the playoffs or the regular season and this is true despite us seeing KG in a wide variety of situations.

why should I be offended?
it says more about you than anybody else, actually.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#600 » by kendogg » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:45 pm

Heej wrote:In his defense the limited offensively line is somewhat accurate in that Wilt could never balance scoring and playmaking, it was always either or for him. The best players blend the 2 into something greater than the sum of its parts, while weaker players oscillate back and forth between the two modes.


Wilt may have struggled with being a fluid playmaker, but this is not unique to him and remember not only was he and his peers the pioneers of the game but they also had much stricter dribbling and carrying rules as well as stricter assist tallies so playmaking was in general just a lot harder back then.

However, back to the original statement...it is still absurd to say Wilt is limited offensively. If you say that about a player like Wilt you could say it for any player in history. No player was the absolute perfect scorer, but Wilt is one of the greatest scorers in history and still has dozens of records on the books. For him to play as well as he did without ever having a good coach at any level until midway through his pro career just further emphasizes how great of an athlete he was. Unlike players today, Wilt didn't have the benefit of studying players before him, since he was the first of his kind as an uber athletic center, and the rules didn't allow for him to be physical like Shaq did. You can't compare his offensive skillset to those who came after him and had the benefit of all that collective knowledge plus excellent college and/or pro coaches.

Wilt absolutely dominated his era in terms of center matchups aside from his famous rivalry with Russ, and even then Wilt usually played very well and arguably as well or better than Russ. There was actually quite a bit of center talent in his era, too. There was more star centers in the 60's relative to the size of the league than any era but the 90's. And they were all a bit different in their skillsets as centers...these guys were the pioneers for the centers of the 70's, 80's and even 90's. When you compare players across eras, you need to look at how they did against their peers and compare their relative successes instead because the raw stats to not compare across eras. Wilts scoring and rebounding records seem like cheat codes when compared to modern eras, because it was a different game back then with different rules. So to compare Wilt to other centers, you have to look at how much he dominated his peers, and compare that with how much other centers of other eras dominated their peers. And Wilt is still among the best ever when you look at it this way. So even if he seems to have holes in his game compared to players of today that just speaks to the evolution of the sport. It is absurd to say Wilt Chamberlain is limited offensively. He is one of the most dominant forces the league has ever seen.

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