2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[falcolombardi]

with curry there is somethingh i consider really odd

some of his most impressive seasons have actuallt been of the "floor raising" kind, the 2022 and 2015 warriors were stacked defensive teams that mainly curry made above average in offense, to say nothingh of the 2019 warriors post durant injury being somewhat short on offensive talent at that point but curry "floor raising" their offense against toronto

i would go as far as saying i am more impressed by the 2015 or 2022 warriors succes than the 2017 or 2018 warriors succes

but because floor raising has been so diminished these last few years (often to prop up curry by diminishing other offensive players labeled as "floor raisers") it plays against curry now

we have had all these years of "curry people" like ben taylor telling us that making a moderate offensive talent team good (aka "floor raising") is barely relevant to win (even though that is exactly how curry won his 2015 ring and may wim in 2022) than now curry doing the same thingh would be subject to the same diminishing cause he is creating merely ok offenses

so it feels like instead a lot of people are now tying curry offense to the warriors -defense- instead if that makes sense, because by the same standarss that were used to prop up curry before, his recent (offensive) results look lackluster and hard to brag about

[parsnips33]

Have the Warriors offensive results in the playoffs this year been lackluster? They've looked pretty good to me generally, but I haven't been checking the stats very deeply admittedly

Or are you specifically referring to Steph's individual numbers?

[falcolombardi]

Have the Warriors offensive results in the playoffs this year been lackluster? They've looked pretty good to me generally, but I haven't been checking the stats very deeply admittedly

Or are you specifically referring to Steph's individual numbers?

i am going of the last 2 regular seasons + 2015 seasom and 2019 playoffs

when is all said and done is possible warriors will have impressive playoffs offense numbera this season, putting them in 2016 cavs/2001 lakers territory of somewhat coasting in regular season before exploding offensivelh in tje playoffs

making my point (for this season) moot lol

but it still would apply for 2015, 2019 (playoffs) and 2021

[parsnips33]

Have the Warriors offensive results in the playoffs this year been lackluster? They've looked pretty good to me generally, but I haven't been checking the stats very deeply admittedly

Or are you specifically referring to Steph's individual numbers?

i am going of the last 2 regular seasons + 2015 seasom and 2019 playoffs

when is all said and done is possible warriors will have impressive playoffs offense numbera this season, putting them in 2016 cavs territory of somewhat coasting in regular season before exploding offensivelh in tje playoffs

making my point (for this season) moot lol

but it still would apply for 2015, 2019 (playoffs) and 2021

I think what your saying speaks somewhat to the different roles Steph has had to play since 2013 even. For a guy who has played with the same team, and largely the same core, for most of his career, he's had to adopt a lot of different roles for the benefit of the team.

2015 (pre-Draymond's offensive breakout) - more of a traditional PG with higher level volume scoring
2016 - on-ball/off-ball supernova gamebreaker
2017/2018 - reducing role to accommodate KD
2021 - weird season that starts with trying to fit square pegs in round holes, ends with most reliance on Steph/Dray pnr since probably '16
2022 - Starts where he left off, injury to Draymond forces him into more traditional PG "2015-ish" role, emergence of Poole as a ball handler adds new dynamic to offense

Even within a single game, let alone season, Steph is constantly switching between different roles. Feels like the story of this playoffs for him has been setting guys up early, trying to get Klay/Wiggins/Poole going, before taking over in the 4th. Versus someone like Luka (not making a value judgement, just acknowledging what I see as a difference) is really really elite in a role (running offense out of high PNR) and will basically play the role every possession he's out there offensively

[falcolombardi]

Have the Warriors offensive results in the playoffs this year been lackluster? They've looked pretty good to me generally, but I haven't been checking the stats very deeply admittedly

Or are you specifically referring to Steph's individual numbers?

i am going of the last 2 regular seasons + 2015 seasom and 2019 playoffs

when is all said and done is possible warriors will have impressive playoffs offense numbera this season, putting them in 2016 cavs territory of somewhat coasting in regular season before exploding offensivelh in tje playoffs

making my point (for this season) moot lol

but it still would apply for 2015, 2019 (playoffs) and 2021

I think what your saying speaks somewhat to the different roles Steph has had to play since 2013 even. For a guy who has played with the same team, and largely the same core, for most of his career, he's had to adopt a lot of different roles for the benefit of the team.

2015 (pre-Draymond's offensive breakout) - more of a traditional PG with higher level volume scoring
2016 - on-ball/off-ball supernova gamebreaker
2017/2018 - reducing role to accommodate KD
2021 - weird season that starts with trying to fit square pegs in round holes, ends with most reliance on Steph/Dray pnr since probably '16
2022 - Starts where he left off, injury to Draymond forces him into more traditional PG "2015-ish" role, emergence of Poole as a ball handler adds new dynamic to offense

Even within a single game, let alone season, Steph is constantly switching between different roles. Feels like the story of this playoffs for him has been setting guys up early, trying to get Klay/Wiggins/Poole going, before taking over in the 4th. Versus someone like Luka (not making a value judgement, just acknowledging what I see as a difference) is really really elite in a role (running offense out of high PNR) and will basically play the role every possession he's out there offensively

i want to make sure this doesnt come acrpss as me diminishing curry

more like pointing out that by the standars sometimes used by people to bring dowm other non-curry offensive players (the whole floor vs ceiling raising thingh) those years by curry (15, 21, 19 playoffs) should be diminished

i am not diminishing those curry years as much as criticizing the approach sometimes people have where anythingh that is not making a offense great is irrelevant

(and the lack of consistency in applying the criteria)

[Texas Chuck]

So as I've spoken of previously, I think Steph's 21-22 season isn't as impressive as several other posters. He was not up to MVP candidate caliber or injured for a much larger stretch of the season then he was MVP caliber. And I know for consistency sake the posters who aren't impressed with Luka the 50 game stretch of winning at a high rate the Mavs were doing can appreciate my position there.

But man he and Draymond as playoff winners for their careers is just incredibly impressive. Sure they've been the most talented team almost every season(not this one imo), but so what? You still have to go out and win all those series and we see other very talented teams fail to consistently deliver in the playoffs.

I feel like I've been on the negative side of some Curry conversations the past month(because we have a couple of posters super high on him this season in ways his actual play this season doesn't warrant imo) so wanted to make sure I gave him his due. He and Draymond always deliver. Curry has pretty much locked up being the 2nd best player of his generation and considering some of his peers, that's quite an achievement.

[falcolombardi]

So as I've spoken of previously, I think Steph's 21-22 season isn't as impressive as several other posters. He was not up to MVP candidate caliber or injured for a much larger stretch of the season then he was MVP caliber. And I know for consistency sake the posters who aren't impressed with Luka the 50 game stretch of winning at a high rate the Mavs were doing can appreciate my position there.

But man he and Draymond as playoff winners for their careers is just incredibly impressive. Sure they've been the most talented team almost every season(not this one imo), but so what? You still have to go out and win all those series and we see other very talented teams fail to consistently deliver in the playoffs.

I feel like I've been on the negative side of some Curry conversations the past month(because we have a couple of posters super high on him this season in ways his actual play this season doesn't warrant imo) so wanted to make sure I gave him his due. He and Draymond always deliver. Curry has pretty much locked up being the 2nd best player of his generation and considering some of his peers, that's quite an achievement.

you could argue curry and lebron being part of different generations i think, their age gap is the same as jordan and magic which are usually seen as different generations

lebron is part of the wade (older guy in this group), paul, bosh, carmelo, and other guys who started to shine in the second half of the 2000's and peaked mostly in the early 2010's

curry by age is more of the durant, harden, blake griffim generations of guys drafted in the late 2000's who started to shine in the mid 2010's

kawhi, lillard, draymond, davis or george are part of a different generation that started to shine in the mid 2010's and peaked around the decade transition

embiid, , giannls, jokic are the next batch

then luka, young , tatum the next one

although my way of classyfing this is unusual i go by groups of guys who you would expect to enter and leave their primes around the same time based on age, so 3-4 year gaps

[jalengreen]

So as I've spoken of previously, I think Steph's 21-22 season isn't as impressive as several other posters. He was not up to MVP candidate caliber or injured for a much larger stretch of the season then he was MVP caliber. And I know for consistency sake the posters who aren't impressed with Luka the 50 game stretch of winning at a high rate the Mavs were doing can appreciate my position there.

But man he and Draymond as playoff winners for their careers is just incredibly impressive. Sure they've been the most talented team almost every season(not this one imo), but so what? You still have to go out and win all those series and we see other very talented teams fail to consistently deliver in the playoffs.

I feel like I've been on the negative side of some Curry conversations the past month(because we have a couple of posters super high on him this season in ways his actual play this season doesn't warrant imo) so wanted to make sure I gave him his due. He and Draymond always deliver. Curry has pretty much locked up being the 2nd best player of his generation and considering some of his peers, that's quite an achievement.

you could argue curry and lebron being part of different generations i think

lebron is part of the wade (older guy in this group), paul, bosh, carmelo, and other guys who started to shine in the second half of the 2000's and peaked mostly in the early 2010's

curry by age is more of the durant, harden, blake griffim generations of guys drafted in the late 2000's who started to shine in the mid 2010's

kawhi, lillard, draymond, davis or george are part of a different generation that started to shine in the mid 2010's and peaked around the decade transition

embiid, , giannls, jokic are the next batch

then luka, young , tatum the next one

i think people generally think about this less in terms of age/draft year and more just the years in which a player's prime spans

lebron's prime spans multiple generations and historically that's what people are probably going to care about (who was the best player in the 2010s or 2015-24 etc)

but in terms of age/draft year yeah i think they're of different generations and curry is the best of his

[Texas Chuck]

yeah everyone should obviously define generations how they feel makes the most sense. I just think of Lebron and Curry as being in the same generation since they went h2h for the title for so long. Obviously Lebron was an MVP caliber player well before Steph and it appears anyway that Steph is going to have more relevant years from this point forward so its not perfect, but rarely is it.

Obviously for those who define Steph not in Lebron's generation he's got to be the best of his. No argument from me there.

[parsnips33]

So as I've spoken of previously, I think Steph's 21-22 season isn't as impressive as several other posters. He was not up to MVP candidate caliber or injured for a much larger stretch of the season then he was MVP caliber. And I know for consistency sake the posters who aren't impressed with Luka the 50 game stretch of winning at a high rate the Mavs were doing can appreciate my position there.

But man he and Draymond as playoff winners for their careers is just incredibly impressive. Sure they've been the most talented team almost every season(not this one imo), but so what? You still have to go out and win all those series and we see other very talented teams fail to consistently deliver in the playoffs.

I feel like I've been on the negative side of some Curry conversations the past month(because we have a couple of posters super high on him this season in ways his actual play this season doesn't warrant imo) so wanted to make sure I gave him his due. He and Draymond always deliver. Curry has pretty much locked up being the 2nd best player of his generation and considering some of his peers, that's quite an achievement.

I struggle with this one, because clearly his numbers are down and he hasn't looked as good as he did even just last season. But the Warriors are still a great team (especially at full strength) and his relative importance to the team doesn't look much different to me than it did at his height, even with the emergence of Poole as a secondary ball handler and Wiggins soaking up some offensive possessions.

Maybe it's as simple as 2016 Steph could've made this another 70 win team rather than what they are

[eminence]

So as I've spoken of previously, I think Steph's 21-22 season isn't as impressive as several other posters. He was not up to MVP candidate caliber or injured for a much larger stretch of the season then he was MVP caliber. And I know for consistency sake the posters who aren't impressed with Luka the 50 game stretch of winning at a high rate the Mavs were doing can appreciate my position there.

But man he and Draymond as playoff winners for their careers is just incredibly impressive. Sure they've been the most talented team almost every season(not this one imo), but so what? You still have to go out and win all those series and we see other very talented teams fail to consistently deliver in the playoffs.

I feel like I've been on the negative side of some Curry conversations the past month(because we have a couple of posters super high on him this season in ways his actual play this season doesn't warrant imo) so wanted to make sure I gave him his due. He and Draymond always deliver. Curry has pretty much locked up being the 2nd best player of his generation and considering some of his peers, that's quite an achievement.

I struggle with this one, because clearly his numbers are down and he hasn't looked as good as he did even just last season. But the Warriors are still a great team (especially at full strength) and his relative importance to the team doesn't look much different to me than it did at his height, even with the emergence of Poole as a secondary ball handler and Wiggins soaking up some offensive possessions.

Maybe it's as simple as 2016 Steph could've made this another 70 win team rather than what they are

Opened the season 27-6 with Steph and Dray through January 5th, so not so far off it (67 win pace).

[Doctor MJ]

I struggle with this one, because clearly his numbers are down and he hasn't looked as good as he did even just last season. But the Warriors are still a great team (especially at full strength) and his relative importance to the team doesn't look much different to me than it did at his height, even with the emergence of Poole as a secondary ball handler and Wiggins soaking up some offensive possessions.

Maybe it's as simple as 2016 Steph could've made this another 70 win team rather than what they are

I'll chime in with a few thoughts:

1. I don't think Kerr's system was ever about getting Curry the best opportunity for volume & efficiency, and I think the times where he has maxed those out tend to represent times where the Warriors just said "go for it Steph". I think people think that Steph is dependent on the system when what's closer to the truth is that it's for everyone else on the team more than it is for his own production.

2. That's not to say that Kerr's system doesn't help Curry's value though, because helping the other players get theirs is valuable.

3. I have a tough time talking as if Curry just isn't what he was last year when the reality is we've seen Curry play that well in stretches. I think he's playing defense with arguably more emphasis than he's ever done in his life, and that - along with age - has tired him out and resulted in him needing to take a step back for major swaths of time.

4. And Curry remains a streaky player who needs to get into his shooting groove before he can be the full Curry. Not saying this isn't a weakness, but it's not the same thing as "He can't do it any more!"

5. Ultimately, when Curry has massive impact while not shooting all that well, to me it's not a question of whether it's a fluke so much as it is a question of how playoff opponents will adjust. I think that if Curry were to go all the way through the playoffs without ever getting hot, eventually opponents' would stop covering him like they do which would kill off his gravitational impact. Hence, so long as Curry can get into that groove if and when opponents stop treating him like the most dangerous thing on the basketball court since Ron Artest, I think that impact is effectively as real as the impact we think of when we look at the player's box score.

[Texas Chuck]

I struggle with this one, because clearly his numbers are down and he hasn't looked as good as he did even just last season. But the Warriors are still a great team (especially at full strength) and his relative importance to the team doesn't look much different to me than it did at his height, even with the emergence of Poole as a secondary ball handler and Wiggins soaking up some offensive possessions.

Maybe it's as simple as 2016 Steph could've made this another 70 win team rather than what they are

I think its all relative? I think Curry is still a great player who by any standard less than MVP, he had a good year. But I don't think his season stacked up very well against Jokic or Giannis and I think several other players have arguments for better regular seasons than him as well. This isn't me saying Steph had a bad year, just I don't think he was MVP caliber over the course of this past season. I actually think he was better last year despite the team success not being close to the same.

[Peregrine01]

KD already on Twitter defending his honor against all comers. I wonder what’ll happen if the Warriors actually win.

[Texas Chuck]

1. I don't think Kerr's system was ever about getting Curry the best opportunity for volume & efficiency, and I think the times where he has maxed those out tend to represent times where the Warriors just said "go for it Steph". I think people think that Steph is dependent on the system when what's closer to the truth is that it's for everyone else on the team more than it is for his own production.



5. Ultimately, when Curry has massive impact while not shooting all that well, .

Great post Doc.

I would absolutely agree that Steph's impact is still extremely high even when the shooting cools off. As you say, teams are going to still defend him like he's STEPH CURRY because they all know what he is capable of. That doesn't go away on a night he's 5/16 and 2/9. It just doesn't.

But that gravity didn't go away last year either when he shot the ball with more consistency, its just his teammates weren't as capable of taking advantage of the room he provided them as they were this year.

So do we credit Curry with more impact because his teammates are now better able to take advantage of what he creates for them even when his own scoring is merely very good instead of stupid, out of this world stuff? I just can't buy into that. I think that credit goes to his teammates.

[Doctor MJ]

1. I don't think Kerr's system was ever about getting Curry the best opportunity for volume & efficiency, and I think the times where he has maxed those out tend to represent times where the Warriors just said "go for it Steph". I think people think that Steph is dependent on the system when what's closer to the truth is that it's for everyone else on the team more than it is for his own production.



5. Ultimately, when Curry has massive impact while not shooting all that well, .

Great post Doc.

I would absolutely agree that Steph's impact is still extremely high even when the shooting cools off. As you say, teams are going to still defend him like he's STEPH CURRY because they all know what he is capable of. That doesn't go away on a night he's 5/16 and 2/9. It just doesn't.

But that gravity didn't go away last year either when he shot the ball with more consistency, its just his teammates weren't as capable of taking advantage of the room he provided them as they were this year.

So do we credit Curry with more impact because his teammates are now better able to take advantage of what he creates for them even when his own scoring is merely very good instead of stupid, out of this world stuff? I just can't buy into that. I think that credit goes to his teammates.

I think the credit needs to go to both just like it does when a guy passes the ball to a teammate who makes a shot.

So to answer the question: Yes, there’s absolutely nothing precluding Curry from being more impactful while executing fine motor basketball action worse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jalengreen]

KD already on Twitter defending his honor against all comers. I wonder what’ll happen if the Warriors actually win.

And there's a lot of them. Steph's online fanbase is absolutely ruthless on Twitter and diminishing Kevin Durant is the best way for them to elevate their favorite player.

Read on Twitter

A public comment like this from a former teammate is obviously gonna bring KD into the spotlight and direct a lot of Steph fan tweets his way

[falcolombardi]

KD already on Twitter defending his honor against all comers. I wonder what’ll happen if the Warriors actually win.

And there's a lot of them. Steph's online fanbase is absolutely ruthless on Twitter and diminishing Kevin Durant is the best way for them to elevate their favorite player.

Read on Twitter

A public comment like this from a former teammate is obviously gonna bring KD into the spotlight and direct a lot of Steph fan tweets his way

bragging early is always dangerous, if curry has a bad finals and warriors lose the durant fans will be ruthless in return about curry needing durant as a closer and all the old fmvp stuff

[jalengreen]

KD already on Twitter defending his honor against all comers. I wonder what’ll happen if the Warriors actually win.

And there's a lot of them. Steph's online fanbase is absolutely ruthless on Twitter and diminishing Kevin Durant is the best way for them to elevate their favorite player.

Read on Twitter

A public comment like this from a former teammate is obviously gonna bring KD into the spotlight and direct a lot of Steph fan tweets his way

bragging early is always dangerous, if curry has a bad finals and warriors lose the durant fans will be ruthless in return about curry needing durant as a closer and all the old fmvp stuff

that's true although 2015 + KD's lack of success with the nets will probably be the straightforward counter for them

[falcolombardi]

And there's a lot of them. Steph's online fanbase is absolutely ruthless on Twitter and diminishing Kevin Durant is the best way for them to elevate their favorite player.

Read on Twitter

A public comment like this from a former teammate is obviously gonna bring KD into the spotlight and direct a lot of Steph fan tweets his way

bragging early is always dangerous, if curry has a bad finals and warriors lose the durant fans will be ruthless in return about curry needing durant as a closer and all the old fmvp stuff

that's true although 2015 + KD's lack of success with the nets will probably be the straightforward counter for them

i think durant fans would try to diminish 2015 cause cleveland injuries and iguodala winning fmvp (the former being more of a valid point than the llater although not by much)

and "counter" 2022 durant seasom with curry missing the playoffs in 2021 and mentioning nets issues througg the season (kyrie vaccine, harden drama) to explain the neys struggles

and the old mighty durant shoe thingh

either way is always risky to talk big before the bbq is done