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Retro POY '00-01 (Voting Complete)

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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#61 » by Silver Bullet » Thu May 13, 2010 3:32 am

Gongxi wrote:Yeah, I must not have seen it. That's the ticket. I wasn't in Madison, WI, at the bar every game night with a bunch of Bucks fans who were insistent that it was their season. I don't remember that season vividly well at all!

The fact of the matter is of course during the course of the season Carter was getting a lot more adulation. He was a superstar already, and his athleticism was electrifying the league. He was supposed to be next Jordan at that point, even before Kobe. McGrady, on the other hand, was known as Carter's lazy-eyed sidekick who wasn't 'proven' at all. So, yes, I know what the countervailing opinion was that whole season and only afterward when you look at it does it seem different. But that's what hindsight allows of us in this situation. We should relish it, not just repeat what the thinking of the time was.

I mean, until the Bulls won in 91, Jordan was a selfish chucker who could never really be a winner. Then that summer he was suddenly a complete player who could put up crazy videogame numbers and win. But he didn't change between December of 1990 and July of 1991- only hindsight allowed for a clearer picture.

Look, if all you're gonna go by is what you think you saw and what you remember you felt 10 years ago, don't even bother. Statistically they were for all intents and purposes dead even in production. I think McGrady was better on defense. What do you think?


Look - I don't mind if you put McGrady ahead on defense.

But you're ignoring that one guy came up big when it counted, and the other didn't.

And you're ignoring that they went up against totally different defenses.

I understand that you think a small portion of the season should not count disproportionately - but when they are neck and neck - you don't think playoff performance matters ?
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#62 » by TMACFORMVP » Thu May 13, 2010 3:44 am

I think McGrady v. Carter is interesting. The argument here so far is the value to their respective team. I'm not sure in this scenario how accurate it would be to compare the records of both teams without their respective superstar. In Carter's case, they went 2-5 without him, but four of those five losses came against the Blazers (50-32), Hornets (46-36), Mavericks (53-29), and Jazz (53-29) - couldn't find the fifth loss. And for McGrady, the Magic went a surprising 4-1 without him. But that can also be mis-leading as well since their wins came against Cavaliers (30-52), Grizzlies (23-59), and Hawks twice (25-57).

So while VC's team fared poorly without him, they faced some of the best teams in the NBA, all of which finished with better records than the Raptors, save the Hornets who won one less game. While on the other hand, the Magic fared favorably without McGrady, but it was against rather terrible competition, three games in which the opponent won 25 or less games, the best win coming against a 30 win Cavalier team.

It could be used as an argument, but it's not something I'd take for much face value IMO.

It IS interesting to note that while Carter was clearly more hyped at the time, he finished only 12th in MVP voting, while McGrady finished 6th ahead of the likes of Kobe, Malone, Kidd etc. And they both were on the All-NBA 2nd team. Statistically, McGrady was more impressive in his all rounded game, he was the better rebounder, defender and passer. While Carter was certainly better scorer than McGrady, it's not by some large margin to overweigh the other aspects of the game in which McGrady has him beat.

Carter fared more team success which makes him the more likely pick, but he also did have a better all rounded supporting cast than McGrady did (and only finished with three more wins). In terms of success, I actually feel McGrady was more impressive in the regular season, but Carter was better in the playoffs. McGrady was good against the Hornets, but had a poor closing game, but Carter did as well in the second round against the Sixers.

But in general, since it being so close the more-success factor probably leans me to Carter even though I might think McGrady is the potentially better player. I'm still not completely decided on that yet.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#63 » by Gongxi » Thu May 13, 2010 3:45 am

Their playoff performances weren't really different either! McGrady did better (+1) against a worse defense (-1), Carter did worse (-1) against better defenses (+1). But there really isn't too much difference. Carter's 50 point games means nothing to me, I'm looking at his averages.

Let's assume Carter was markedly better in the playoffs though, accounting for the defenses he faced- not that I believe this, but for the sake of argument let's say it's true. Did McGrady play better defense throughout the whole season? If we agree he did, should Carter being slightly better in the playoffs make up for being worse than McGrady all season long on that end of the court?

I don't want to call you out here, but aren't you from Toronto? I'm not going to be surprised if this was right around the time you started really following basketball- there seems to be some romanticism involved with his 50 point games against the Sixers and you. Yes, it was a very, very exciting series, but just as I'm not ranking these players on the hype they received that year (I seem to remember you asking me the same thing re: McGrady and Bryant in 2003), I'm not ranking them on the excitement or drama they produced.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#64 » by Baller 24 » Thu May 13, 2010 4:14 am

Some good arguments on behalf of both guys.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#65 » by Gongxi » Thu May 13, 2010 4:21 am

I'm not even sold on McGrady at all. But when the counterargument rests on talk of 50 point games while ignoring the lesser scoring nights he had to create the average he indeed ended up having and things like "I don't think you saw that season", I'm not going to be swayed. I have half a mind to just put in Iverson or Garnett in order to not listen to it anymore (just kidding, Doc).
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#66 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu May 13, 2010 4:21 am

Some good arguments on behalf of both guys.


Agreed.

This is what makes this such an interesting project.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#67 » by Baller 24 » Thu May 13, 2010 4:43 am

So as of right now, I'm narrowed down my choices for the 5th spot to:

- McGrady
- Carter
- Allen

I'm considering taking Allen out, he had a spectacular playoff run, played out of his mind actually, and was solid throughout the regular season, but in terms of supporting cast, he has a team that was very offensively oriented surrounding him. Allen's out. I'm down to McGrady or Carter? But I need the arguments to keep coming, I'm glad someone put the time to look up the opponents of each team. But I'm pretty confident that my Top 4 in order are Shaq, Duncan, Bryant, and Iverson.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#68 » by Silver Bullet » Thu May 13, 2010 4:43 am

Gongxi wrote:I'm not even sold on McGrady at all. But when the counterargument rests on talk of 50 point games while ignoring the lesser scoring nights he had to create the average he indeed ended up having and things like "I don't think you saw that season", I'm not going to be swayed. I have half a mind to just put in Iverson or Garnett in order to not listen to it anymore (just kidding, Doc).


You don't think points scored in a game 7 matter more than points scored in game 1 ?
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#69 » by Baller 24 » Thu May 13, 2010 4:54 am

The players on the Toronto Raptors were clearly better than the players on the Orlando Magic. That's an obvious---especially a big plus in Vince's favor in the playoffs, where a lot of the players stepped up. Where as for Orlando, outside of Miller and Armstrong there's nobody worth nothing as even a veteran presence, especially in the playoffs, where everyone outside of Mac and Garrity were absolute trash.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#70 » by ronnymac2 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:06 am

T-Mac vs. Vince is interesting. I want to have an opinion on it by the end of this thread, even if it doesn't matter with regards to my top 5 (it really may not).

Duncan vs. Kobe....I am leaning towards Duncan, but it is close right now.

Not sure where KG fits.

Allen Iverson is most likely going in my top 5.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#71 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu May 13, 2010 5:15 am

DR MUFASA wrote:It's become easier and easier to pick on Allen Iverson. As basketball fans become more and more stat knowledgeable, Iverson's numbers look worse. While his 30ppg once looked majestic, with the increased usefulness of TS%, now it's easy to see how awfully inefficient those scoring feats really were. Iverson's TS% fell between .480-.500 through the bulk of his prime.

Logically, a player who takes 25 shots a game at an awful efficiency only achieves one purpose - Increasing the number of inefficient shots his offense has in a game and thus, hurting the offense.

I want to defend Iverson now. While his efficiency is awful, I do NOT believe that indicates he is a bad scorer who simply took a ton of shots. I believe Iverson is one of the most unstoppable one on one forces the league has ever seen. Most would agree with me among baskeball nerds or casual fans. Most teams recognized it is impossible to play Iverson straight up and thus threw many men against him. Clearly the proper move for Iverson when double teamed would be to find an open 3 point shooter, whereas it's his fault he took too many contested shots, right? Well, easier said than done without the right roster. Here's Philadelphia's rank in 3PA from 98-99 on, when his scoring prime started

99 - 29th (LAST)
2000 - 23rd
2001 - 28th
2002 - 29th
2003 - 28th
2004 - 24th
2005 - 10th
2006 - 24th
2007 - 30th

2005 was the Jim O'Brien coached year, who emphasizes pushing the tempo and shooting 3s. The Sixers also jumped from out of the top 20 in pace to 2nd overall that year.

Apart from 05, how brutal are those numbers? And keep in mind this was with Iverson shooting like 4 3s a game. There was basically nobody else on those teams who could shoot. At all. And this is with a franchise player who should be thriving on spacing and finding open 3s after penetrations. Imagine if New Orleans had Chris Paul for 11 years and never put any shooters around him, or any pick and roll guy. It'd be a ridiculous lack of sense.

There's another trend with Iverson that's really interesting, and that's the progression of his TS% throughout his career. In 97-98 he had a solid .535. His next 6 years after that he posted .508, .496, .518, .489, .500, .478. Then in 2005 (the O'Brien year) he jumped to .532, before 2 more years in Philly at .543 and .540. Iverson is now in very solid efficiency territory. Finally he goes to Denver and puts up a sparkling .567 in perhaps the best year of his career at 32.

These numbers take relevance once you put in the context. In 1998, Iverson played with Jerry Stackhouse and Derrick Coleman (though still no 3 pt shooting - ranked 24th that year), sadly the most offensive help he ever had in the Sixers era. For the 6 years after that he had an offensive turd sandwich to work with. The Sixers then got Webber in the Obie year, albeit he was injured his first season. The next season they played together and Iverson jumped to .543. Then he goes to Denver beside Melo and puts up a .540 (.545 in Denver) and then .567.

How can it be a coincidence that Iverson's 5 most efficient years in order were the the 2 beside Melo, with Webber, with Coleman, and Obie's 3 point shooting year? Iverson did not get better as he got older, he got slower. He just had a lot more room to work with, and players to actually take some pressure of him. The number in Denver is what really surprises me and makes me reconsider his career. Scoring 25ppg on .567 TS% really is terrific. And this was with Iverson at 32. Clearly Melo had a very positive impact on him offensively by opening up the court

The Philadelphia 76ers management from 96-2007 (actually make that 96-2009) was an absolute embarrasment and I truly believe Iverson had the worst management help of any star player in history. I cannot fathom a team doing a worse job building around a star player than the Sixers did with Iverson. Not only did they fail to find anyone remotely offensively noteable beside him (seriously - his best offensive partners were a broken down Coleman and Webber), but the role players they put around him were quite possibly the least complimentary you could possibly have. At least Lebron and Paul are surrounded by shooters who he can pass to and who spread the floor. The Sixers couldn't even do that. The Sixers job in the Iverson era is a F-----. And yet they still made the finals and went to the 2nd round 3 other times, and had 56, 49, and 48 win seasons. This is more than KG achieved in his Wolves era

There is no question Iverson could've been more mature. He's not a leader. His defense is questionable at best. But can you really blame a player for not winning a ring with absolute crap who don't even fit your game? Or feeling your team is better off with you taking these contested shots (a contested Iverson shot is still better than Eric Snow taking anything). I feel like the latest generation only sees Iverson as the Cancer... as a player who has a negative impact on the game and ruins everywhere he goes. The truth is he was still one of the best offensive talents the game has seen and a real legend. It's a shame he didn't bust his ass out of Philly earlier a la Barkley, but what can you do. The guy has his faults but he also won a lot considering just how terrible the Sixers job of building around him was. What if Iverson played beside a talented guy like Melo his whole career, or even a Jason Terry/Josh Howard combo? Would this open up the court for his considerable one on one skills, would it make teams play him straight up more often? And if this was true, would Iverson suddenly become a .55 TS%+ scorer? It's hard to know because he never had the chance - We were robbed of seeing an Iverson with any offensive help around him, outside of his year in Denver.

One more note on his Detroit year - I think the guy was just done. He's putting up similar numbers this year in Philly... everyone gets old and Iverson relied on his athleticism and speed. On that note Rip and Sheed deserve a lot of blame for that Pistons collapse too
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#72 » by ronnymac2 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:18 am

^^^That's one hell of a post. I remember that thread, too.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#73 » by semi-sentient » Thu May 13, 2010 5:24 am

Here's some numbers for Kobe and Duncan, who are pretty damn close to each other:

Regular Season - Basic Stats

Code: Select all

        G    MP    FG%   3P%   FT%    TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PTS
===================================================================
  Kobe  68   40.9  .464  .305  .853   5.9  5.0  1.7  0.6  3.2  28.5
Duncan  82   38.7  .499  .259  .618  12.2  3.0  0.9  2.3  3.0  22.2


Playoffs - Basic Stats

Code: Select all

        G    MP    FG%   3P%   FT%    TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PTS
===================================================================
  Kobe  16   43.4  .469  .324  .821   7.3  6.1  1.6  0.8  3.2  29.4
Duncan  13   40.5  .488 1.000  .639  14.5  3.8  1.1  2.7  3.8  24.4


Regular Season - Advanced Stats

Code: Select all

        PER   TS%   oRtg   dRtg   WS
======================================
  Kobe  24.5  .552  112    105    11.3
Duncan  23.8  .536  106    94     13.2


Playoffs - Advanced Stats

Code: Select all

        PER   TS%   oRtg   dRtg   WS
======================================
  Kobe  25.0  .555  116    99     3.8
Duncan  25.4  .531  104    96     1.9



I generally don't utilize advanced stats all that much outside of TS%, so I don't know how much value the others that I didn't include hold. These are the ones that I've seen thrown around the most.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#74 » by NO-KG-AI » Thu May 13, 2010 5:31 am

I noticed the same thing mufasa did, the 6ers were poor shooters.

When teams build around the "one star+ defense" mold, they usually at least put some shooters in to create space.

Great post.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#75 » by Gongxi » Thu May 13, 2010 5:42 am

Silver Bullet wrote:
Gongxi wrote:I'm not even sold on McGrady at all. But when the counterargument rests on talk of 50 point games while ignoring the lesser scoring nights he had to create the average he indeed ended up having and things like "I don't think you saw that season", I'm not going to be swayed. I have half a mind to just put in Iverson or Garnett in order to not listen to it anymore (just kidding, Doc).


You don't think points scored in a game 7 matter more than points scored in game 1 ?


No.

Regarding Bryant vs. Duncan, they're very close, but the disparity in games played really does it for me. Bryant played in 85% of his teams' games; Duncan in 100%. Was Bryant 15% better (however you'd measure that)?
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#76 » by Dr Positivity » Thu May 13, 2010 5:57 am

I do give a bit more credit to the Sixers staff now, than I did then. Offensively it was a bad fit, but the combination of a ball dominant scorer/passer with 4 other guys asked to play d and rebound is not a bad one. There's been worse supporting casts fit wise.

My ballot

1. Shaq - No question

2. Duncan - Fairly close to prime Duncan, still a dominant player. Looking back I am surprised he didn't get MVP or come that close in voting... best record in the league, played 82 games to Iverson's 71, plus he didn't have one yet. Says something about the Iverson hype at the time too.

3. Kobe - Won title, first big time statistical year, and absolutely destroyed in the playoffs. Better d than Iverson, plus he's a bigger guy which should help finishing, and can play off the ball more.

4. Iverson - MVP, lots of big playoff games leading team to Final, 56 wins despite not having Mutumbo for most of the year. Sixers surprisingly decent (13th) offensively for a team ranking 28th in 3s made which is usually death for ORTG. An example of a team built similarly to this one is the 09-10 Bulls with Rose + a bunch of defense and rebounding first guys. They ranked 27th. Having a player who carries a lot of "weight" offensively can also help build a great defensive team - because the other 4 guys just have to worry about d and rebounding. This year's Miami Heat are an example of this effect. Sixers' d/rebounding should not be separated from Iverson

5. Webber - Monster 27/11/4, best player on a 55 win team... I'm not incredibly fond of Tmac or Carter so it came down to Webber and KG here. I think Webber deserves the edge at this point.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#77 » by TrueLAfan » Thu May 13, 2010 11:25 am

1. Shaq
2. TD
3. Iverson
4. Kobe
5. KG


HM: McGrady, Ray Ray, VC

Lots of good players this year; like most, I have Shaq pretty clearly at number one. I remember worrying a lot about TD's free throw shooting, and thinking the Spurs were in trouble and wouldn't make it to a finals for a while. Huh. Hindsight. Allen was terrific this year. So was CWebb...although his rebounds numbers look better than they should since he played a lot of minutes, and had less impact than they should because Webber still hadn't learned how to box out effectively (or deliver wins in the playoffs). And I could be underrating McGrady...but Bo Outlaw was a good frontcourt role player, and Darrell Armstrong was still good, and Mike Miller had a nice rookie year. The Magic had better balance than they had in 2002 and still were essentially a .500 team. Kobe and KG get a lift for postseason play.

I think Dr. Mufasa has it right about AI. I've never liked Allen Iverson. But it's time to stop thinking that advanced statistical metrics are a be-all end-all, and admit that he's in the middle of a 5 year run with mediocre teammates where his teams played .600 ball...about the same as KG's run with the TWolves from 2000-4. I'm sure we can put on serious expressions and talk about the importance of efficiency and the weakness of Eastern Conference and overstate Mutombo's impact and on and on. I think that's unfair. Would I rather have Kevin Garnett on my fantasy team than AI? Sure. Would it be easier to build around KG? Absolutely. But that is not what is being asked. Allen Iverson carried a below average to a bit above average teams to good records for half a decade and won quite a few playoff series. He was more valuable than players who had better numbers.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#78 » by NO-KG-AI » Thu May 13, 2010 11:32 am

:clap:

Thank god, I thought I was the last person alive that realized AI was better than average.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#79 » by Rick45 » Thu May 13, 2010 2:48 pm

semi-sentient wrote:If I see one more person put AI ahead of Kobe, I'm putting Kobe at the top of my list to make up for it.

I Know I' am not voting, but I like reading these threads, and I knew you could not have a mature voting process with things like this going on. I don't know if he was kidding it does not seem like it but wow
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#80 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu May 13, 2010 2:48 pm

That Mufasa post was really good and helped change my opinion about Iverson

Nice USA Today article from early in the season on Iverson, his relationship with Larry Brown, and the 76ers.

Perhaps the most convincing evidence that Allen Iverson is a different man has to do with his 'do.

Normally, Iverson's braided hair is perfectly coifed, a work of art. But when he took the floor to face the Cleveland Cavaliers a week ago, some of the braids were undone and looked ragged. It turns out that Iverson knew if he worked on his hair he'd be late for the 76ers' pregame routine. It was a no-brainer.

"He just left things the way they were so he could get to the game on time," says 76ers president Pat Croce. "That wouldn't have happened before. His hair would have been an excuse. That was a big step for him."

Iverson, 25, has been taking a lot of big steps lately, and no one could be more pleased than coach Larry Brown, the man Iverson has battled with much of the last three seasons.

The relationship an NBA coach has with his star player is one of the most important dynamics on any team, and after three years of tugging at each other, Brown and Iverson are finally pulling in the same direction.

The 76ers, as a result, are cruising along with the NBA's only perfect record, 10-0 going into tonight's game at Charlotte. With Brown and Iverson on the same page, it sends a strong message -- the 76ers aren't going away.

In the past, Brown and Iverson have tangled over the most elementary of things -- a dress code, coming to practice on time, lifting weights, having a professional attitude and being a leader. Brown
has taken those things for granted his entire coaching career, yet with Iverson, even these basics were a negotiation.

Not anymore.

Some people say it was the threat of a trade to the Clippers that scared Iverson straight. (He also was near being dealt to Detroit). Iverson says it was a natural maturation, calling his past behavior
of tardiness and missing practices altogether "ridiculous." All it served to do was give the 76ers ammunition to justify trading him.

Winning certainly helps a relationship, but Brown is convinced that even though he's heard the "I'm going to change" speech from Iverson before, this time he is sincere. Iverson wants to win more than anything and sincerely cares about what his fans think.

At first he couldn't understand why everyone made a big deal over offensive lyrics on his rap CD. His first reaction was to lash out at critics, but after meeting with protesting groups and Commissioner
David Stern, Iverson promised to clean up the offensive references on the CD, scheduled for a February release.

His new image repaired, he is enjoying the most incident free stretch of his career.

Brown, who admits he could have handled some incidents with Iverson better, now sees an eager Iverson, hungry to be the best and willing to make any necessary sacrifices to get there.

"I'm learning different things, and I'm learning a lot of them from Coach Brown," Iverson says. "When I first came into the league, everybody saw the talent that God gave me, and they wanted to make me a guy who was 35 years old. Nobody ever gave me any room for any mistakes. Everybody felt that because I had the talent I have, I was supposed to know everything -- on and off the court.

That isn't true for anybody. Everybody makes mistakes, and most people eventually get better. That's where I am now. I'm getting better on and off the court."

Winning in groups of two

Two of the best coach-player relationships in recent NBA history were Magic Johnson and Pat Riley with the Los Angeles Lakers in the 1980s and Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan with the Chicago
Bulls in the 1990s. Those close-knit relationships led to four NBA championships for
Johnson and Riley and six for Jordan and Jackson.

Johnson and Riley talked and then went out and sold their ideas to everyone else. Jordan and Jackson were more like father and son. Jackson got Jordan to see things he couldn't see by himself and to appreciate his teammates. But Johnson and Jordan were from middle class homes and disciplined environments.

Iverson is a product of a more fight-to-survive culture. He's of the anti-mainstream hip-hop generation, while Johnson and Jordan are from a generation where you were brought up to respect. They had a solid groundwork when they came into the league, and they built on it. Iverson is trying to add the foundation after the building is already up. In turning to Brown, Iverson hasn't turned away from his original support group. His mother, Ann, is his biggest fan and is at almost all 76ers games wearing Iverson's No. 3. Friends, some of whom have put Iverson in some compromising situations, have not been abandoned, he just listens to them less.

When the Lakers or Bulls had setbacks, Johnson and Riley and Jordan and Jackson became stronger and often closer. It remains to be seen how the Brown-Iverson relationship will change once the 76ers hit a slump.

"The biggest things I've been preaching to him have been about things over which he has control," Brown says. "It's never been about how he was playing or how he was competing. It's always
been issues like being on time, being a professional, working on his game in the offseason and being a leader. I think he made the decision himself that he was going to handle those things,
and he's doing that, and that allows me to coach. He's accepted his responsibility. That's the only way a coach can succeed in this league -- if your best players set the standards."

Iverson smiles when asked what about Brown impresses him the most.

"It's his know-how," Iverson says. "He knows how to run a game. He makes all the right decisions at the critical times. He's just somebody special to watch. He thinks basketball 24-7, and he knows exactly what he's talking about. He's definitely a reason for me playing the way I'm playing now."

No more mediation

Brown and Iverson have always had tough love for each other. "I've maintained all along that if I ever had a need or was in trouble, Allen would be the first guy to stand up or me," Brown says. "I'd never question his heart or his loyalty. I think he always understood what I was saying, but he has always had a lot of things going on in his life and in his mind and maybe it just took this long."

Croce, often the man in the middle of past Iverson-Brown rifts, doesn't have to mediate or take sides any longer.

"Larry Brown and Allen Iverson are great for each other," he says. "Allen is a star, and he helps Larry use all of his magical coaching experience, and Allen knows finally to listen to him. "I told Allen in the offseason that he wasn't going to get traded 'if you just follow the rules.' I think the light bulb started clicking on, and it's been shining bright."

Says 76ers point guard and co-captain Eric Snow: "Allen lets Coach do his job, and Coach lets him do his thing. It isn't even an issue anymore. It's like whatever went on between them before never happened."

Iverson is averaging 5.3 fewer points than last season, down to 23.1. But the 76ers, as a team, are scoring 1.5 more points a game as Iverson has made sure his teammates are more involved.
His performance in Monday's 114-90 win at Boston was typical of the new Iverson. He had 26 points, eight assists, five steals, two rebounds and no turnovers.

"That guy is something else," Brown said. "I may not have handled the situations right all the time with him, but it's the most satisfying thing to hear people comment on how good he's playing and how well he's acting. He's playing winning basketball now, and that, to me, is the greatest compliment anybody can give him. "During his early career we changed things to accommodate him, and now he's accommodating his teammates. He has truly made them better."

The Brown-Iverson relationship, as good as it appears to be now, isn't a case of two sides meeting in the middle to work out differences. It's a case of one side seeing that the other side was right all
along.

Iverson has no problem laying blame at his own feet, but both he and Brown insist that although there have been a number of confrontations between the two, they've always had a deep respect
for each other.

They're from different worlds, different generations and have different support systems, but they are both keenly aware of how much the success of the team and them as individuals hinges on their relationship.

Their roads are finally running parallel.

"I've coached Reggie Miller, Danny Manning, Bobby Jones, Billy Cunningham, Dan Issel, David Thompson and David Robinson," Brown says, "but I've never had a challenge like this. Allen has gone through a lot in four years, and what we're seeing now is just the beginning. He's going to get even better.

"It's tough to coach great players because you want, no matter what, nothing more than for them to realize their potential and be allowed to play as well as they are capable of playing."

Says Croce, "Allen is a special man. He's smart. He learns through personal experiences, which many times are painful for him, for me and for the franchise. But he doesn't make the same mistake twice."

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