Retro POY '71-72 (Voting Complete)

[ElGee]

My 1972 POY Ballot:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. John Havlicek
5. Jerry West

Kareem's easy. It's outside the scope of the project, but I do disagree with those who think this is his "absolute peak" simply because of the raw numbers. There's more to consider, and it seems logical that Kareem would improve (which I think he does) as the years pass. Anyway, he's still easily No. 1.

I'm pretty comfortable with Wilt at No. 2. That last game of the Finals says it all: injured hands, utterly brilliant performance (it's online, btw). That's a pretty good Russell/Walton impersonation of playing defense and being a focal point of the offense out of the post without shooting too much. This Lakers team was interesting with Goodrich, McMillan and Bill Sharman taking over as coach. They wanted to run more and Wilt rebounded and threw outlets to spark that strength. With West's postseason slump Wilt gets the nod.

Frazier's next. As always, such a disruptive force. Fairly awesome offensive performances, as well.

Fourth came down to Havlicek, West and Julius Erving (who absolutely went bonkers in the ABA playoffs). I think we're right around a period where Hondo's game is really refined, really solid and he can fit into a lot of NBA systems at that time and do well. That he excelled on a team playing big minutes and running hards -- two of his physical strengths -- might exaggerate his statistics a little, but I'm thinking he can still help a lot of NBA teams in a similar vein. He's a good passer, and good defender, a really good shooter, and the more I research in depth, one of the greatest clutch players in NBA history (if there is such a thing). I'll go with Hondo. Barely.

Basically, at the end of the day it's just hard for me to look at rookies Gilmore and Erving and think I'm better off winning with them than with Jerry West, even with the postseason shooting slump.

Would love to hear more arguments outside the top 3 before voting closes though...

[ronnymac2]

Final Rankings:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Walt Frazier
John Havlicek
Jerry West

[shawngoat23]

This is a really deep year, and I had trouble cutitng down the names in my final list.

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Jerry West
4. Walt Frazier
5. John Havlicek

My top two came down to Kareem and Wilt. I have a strong preference for players that play within the team concept, as Wilt did this year. I have no doubt that this contributed to the Lakers' excellent regular season record and playoff success this year, and I want to reward Wilt for it. But on the other hand, I simply am not convinced that he as better or more valuable than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar this year, and I believe that Jerry West was the Lakers' best player before he fell into a very uncharacteristic slump for the playoffs. While I believe Chamberlain deserves tremendous praise for his role on one of the greatest teams of all-time (11.65 SRS), Kareem's Bucks were excellent too (63 wins, 10.70 SRS), and although having guys like Robertson, Dandridge, and Allen certainly helped, Kareem was of course the centerpiece.

Jerry West gets my nod at #3. He was great during the regular season as the Lakers ran up 69 wins, and despite his shooting woes, he did enough to help his Lakers win their first championship in L.A., so I won't bump him any lower than this.

Frazier had arguably the best postseason of any player in the league in leading the Knicks to the Finals, but I don't think he distinguished himself enough on a 48-win Knick team (a quality team even without Willis Reed) to warrant a spot above my other guys.

Havlicek earns himself a spot in the top 5 for doing everything for a pretty strong Celtics squad.

Honorable mentions go to Artis Gilmore and Julius Erving, the former for his MVP performance as a rookie and the latter for playing like a madman in the postseason. I was tempted to give Erving a spot on the top 5, but he didn't even make the All-ABA team (probably because of some bias against rookie), so it's hard to justify him in the top 5 in a deep year.

Great information, guys. I have to admit I know very little about these years, and the articles you guys are digging up are absolute gold.

[lorak]

1. KAJ
2. Wilt
3. Barry
4. Hondo
5. Frazier

[Manuel Calavera]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. John Havlicek
4. Walt Frazier
5. Artis Gilmore

[Doctor MJ]

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Frazier
4. Julius
5. Thurmond

Kareem takes the top spot pretty easily. I'm not sold on Wilt outplaying him in their playoff series. Wilt grabs the second spot though.

Frazier's a solid #3, leading the Knicks to the finals without Reed.

After that it got hard.

I'm hesitant to give too much credit for a guy exploding in the playoffs when it's not a deep run. However, Erving's Squires didn't lose in the first round, and battled the Nets harder than Gilmore's Colonels did despite the issues I've mentioned before. it's not enough to move him above the top 3, but it's enough to get him in the top 5.

Thurmond is definitely an upset for the 5 spot. I'm really blown away by what he did to Kareem these two years - in conjuction with this year scoring 20 ppg and leading the Warriors sans-Barry to 50+ wins.

Havlicek was really hard to leave off. Honestly, he's deserving, I'm just feeling a greater pull toward Erving and Thurmond.

Gilmore gets an honorable mention, but while I don't want to blame him for the Colonels getting upset, I'm just more enthralled with the sum total of Thurmond's year.

Jerry West, I love, but I really have become convinced that he was playing at a level below all these other guys in the playoffs.

[ThaRegul8r]

1. Wilt Chamberlain. 14.8 points on a league-leading 64.9 percent from the field, led league with 19.2 rebounds, passed for 4.0 assists, played all 82 games averaging 42.3 minutes per (3rd in the league). Led league in true shooting percentage (.610) and defensive win shares (7.9); finished second in win shares (15.8). First Team All-Defense. Lakers go 69-13—which stood as the single-season record until the Chicago Bulls went 72-10 in 1995-96—after Wilt for buys into what former Celtic Bill Sharman wants.

In the postseason averaged 14.7 points on 56.3 percent shooting, 21.0 rebounds (led playoffs) and 3.3 assists in 46.9 minutes. Led playoffs in defensive win shares (1.8), led team in win shares (3.0). Held league MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to 33.7 points on 32.8 field goal attempts and 45.7 percent shooting in the Western Conference Finals, 2-for-8 in the last 10 minutes of the deciding Game 6 which Los Angeles won 104-100. NBA Finals Most Valuable Player, averaging 19.4 points on 60 percent shooting, 23.2 rebounds, 7.4 blocked shots and 2.6 assists in 49.2 minutes per game. In the deciding Game 5, scored 24 points on 10-for-14 shooting (71.4%), grabbed 29 rebounds, blocked 10 shots and passed for four assists. He did everything this year I criticized him for not doing the previous year we covered.


2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. 34.8 points (1st in the league) on 57.4 percent shooting (2nd)—2nd highest in NBA history for a 30-ppg season—and 60.3 percent true shooting (3rd)—2nd highest in NBA history for a 30-ppg season at the time, 16.6 rebounds (3rd), 4.6 assists in 44.2 minutes per game (2nd). NBA Most Valuable Player. Led league in PER (29.9), offensive win shares (18.3—highest in NBA history), win shares (25.4—highest in NBA history), wins shares per 48 minutes (.340—highest in NBA history), and finished second in defensive win shares (7.1).

In the postseason averaged 28.7 points (1st in the playoffs) on 43.7 percent shooting and 46.2 percent true shooting, 18.2 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 46.4 minutes per game. Led the playoffs in PER (22.4). Was held to 22.8 points on 24.2 field-goal attempts and 40.5 percent shooting by Nate Thurmond (25.4 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, .435 FG%, 46.0 mpg) in the Western Conference Semifinals—36.9 percent shooting for the last three games, and 33.7 points on 32.8 field goal attempts and 45.7 percent shooting by Wilt Chamberlain in the Western Conference Finals.


3. Walt Frazier. 23.2 points on 51.2 percent shooting and 57.6 percent true shooting (6th in the league), 6.7 rebounds, 5.8 assists (9th) in 40.6 minutes per game. First Team All-NBA, First Team All-Defense. Willis Reed played only 11 games due to knee tendinitis.

In the postseason averaged 24.3 points on 53.6 percent shooting and 58.6 percent true shooting, 7.0 rebounds and 6.1 assists in 44.0 minutes per game. Led playoffs in offensive win shares (2.6), win shares (3.3), and win shares per 48 minutes (.227). Led a Reed-less Knick team to the NBA Finals, where he averaged 23 points on 58.5 percent shooting from the floor, 70.4 percent shooting from the line and 61.2 percent true shooting, 8 rebounds and 8 assists in 45.2 minutes per game.


4. John Havlicek. 27.5 points (3rd in the league behind Kareem and Nate Archibald [28.2 ppg]), 8.2 rebounds, 7.5 assists (5th in the league behind Jerry West [9.7], Lenny Wilkens [9.6], Archibald [9.2], and Archie Clark [8.0]), played the most minutes of any player in the league for the second consecutive season, with 3,698—45.1 per game, and led Boston to a 56-26 record, first place in the Atlantic Division and best in the Eastern Conference. First Team All-NBA, First Team All Defense. Finished fourth in the MVP voting behind Abdul-Jabbar, West, and Chamberlain.

In the postseason averaged 27.4 points on 46.0 percent shooting and 54.0 percent true shooting, 8.4 rebounds and 6.4 assists in 47.0 minutes per game (led playoffs). Averaged 25.6 points against the New York Knicks in the Eastern Conference Finals.


Was considering for final spot:


Jerry West. 25.8 points (7th in the league), 4.2 rebounds and a league-leading 9.7 assists in 38.6 minutes per game. First Team All-NBA and First Team All Defense, finished second in the league MVP voting to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Finished third in the league in PER (23.1) [behind Abdul-Jabbar and Bob Lanier (23.1)], and fifth in shares. Lakers won their first four games before West sprained his ankle 10/20/71 in the second half of a 126-1104 win over Atlanta. West missed five games, in which the Lakers were 2-3. West returned to the lineup 11/5/71 against Baltimore, and the Lakers won a professional sports record 33 consecutive games, during which West averaged 26.1 points, 4.5 rebounds and 10.1 assists (Elliot Kalb, Who’s Better, Who’s Best in Basketball?, p. 125).

In the postseason averaged 22.9 points—his lowest postseason scoring average since his rookie season—on career-playoff lows of 37.6 percent shooting and 44.5 percent true shooting, 4.9 rebounds and 8.9 assists (led playoffs) in 40.5 minutes per game. In the Finals, averaged 19.8 points on 32.5 percent shooting from the floor, 79.3 percent shooting from the line and 38.1 percent true shooting, 4 rebounds and 8.8 assists in 41.2 minutes per game. Postseason drops him below Frazier and Havlicek, who were both superior in the playoffs. Had 1.0 playoff win shares, fewest of any Laker starter.


Nate Thurmond. 21.4 points, 16.1 rebounds (4th in the league), 2.9 assists in 43.1 minutes per game (4th). Second Team All-Defense. Ranked seventh in defensive win shares (6.4). Led Warriors to a 51-31 record—second in the Pacific Division, fourth best in the Western Division and fifth best in the league. Outplayed league MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the Western Conference Semifinals, averaging 25.4 points (.434 FG%), 17.8 rebounds and 5.2 assists in 46.0 minutes while holding Jabbar to 22.8 points on 24.2 field-goal attempts and 40.5 percent shooting. Over the last three games Thurmond held Jabbar to 36.9 percent shooting.


I'm sorry, but having your worst slump during the playoffs is the absolute worst time to do so. Fortunately for them, Wilt came through. Ironic that after so many years of playing magnificently in defeat, the year he finally won, he didn't play well.

On the other hand, Thurmond was phenomenal against Kareem. He received a standing ovation when he left the court for the final time for the series. I absolutely cannot fault Thurmond here that Golden State didn't advance.

“Nobody has ever outplayed Abdul-Jabbar over so long a stretch before.”
(The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 6, 1972)

And the next year, he would prove it wasn't a fluke—he's just that good. I'm a defense guy, so while Thurmond was often overlooked, here won't be here.


5. Nate Thurmond.

[Optimism Prime]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. Jerry West
5. Nate Thurmond

HM: John Havlicek
Super-HM: Elgin Baylor for sparking that 33-game win streak.

[ThaRegul8r]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. Jerry West
5. Nate Thurmond

HM: John Havlicek
Super-HM: Elgin Baylor for sparking that 33-game win streak.

[Optimism Prime]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. Jerry West
5. Nate Thurmond

HM: John Havlicek
Super-HM: Elgin Baylor for sparking that 33-game win streak.

Seriously--ask yourself if they would've done that if he hadn't retired. My guess is no. It's one of those "We just lost a crucial part of our team; everyone has to step it up now" type things. They just... stepped it up more than was reasonable.

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[Doctor MJ]

'71-72 Results

Code: Select all

Player                1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 15   1   0   0   0 157   0.981
2. Wilt Chamberlain     1  14   1   0   0 113   0.706
3. Walt Frazier         0   1  10   3   2  68   0.425
4. John Havlicek        0   0   1   9   2  34   0.213
5. Jerry West           0   0   3   1   7  25   0.156
6. Nate Thurmond        0   0   0   1   4   7   0.044
7. Rick Barry           0   0   1   0   0   5   0.031
8. Artis Gilmore        0   0   0   1   1   4   0.025
9. Julius Erving        0   0   0   1   0   3   0.019


[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com/poy

No changes in the top 15, outside of Kareem inching closer to Jordan. He's going to end up just shy of Jordan after the next round of voting, but he'll pass him and possibly crack the 10 POY shares mark with his final season.

Code: Select all

1.  Michael Jordan        9.578
2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   8.547
3.  Magic Johnson         7.114
4.  Tim Duncan            6.153
5.  Larry Bird            6.147
6.  Shaquille O'Neal      5.910
7.  Julius Erving         5.046
8.  Karl Malone           4.649
9.  Hakeem Olajuwon       4.380
10. Kobe Bryant           4.326
11. Moses Malone          3.478
12. Kevin Garnett         3.388
13. LeBron James          3.083
14. David Robinson        2.431
15. Dwyane Wade           2.179

[JordansBulls]

Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy

No changes in the top 15, outside of Kareem inching closer to Jordan. He's going to end up just shy of Jordan after the next round of voting, but he'll pass him and possibly crack the 10 POY shares mark with his final season.

Code: Select all

1.  Michael Jordan        9.578
2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   8.547
3.  Magic Johnson         7.114
4.  Tim Duncan            6.153
5.  Larry Bird            6.147
6.  Shaquille O'Neal      5.910
7.  Julius Erving         5.046
8.  Karl Malone           4.649
9.  Hakeem Olajuwon       4.380
10. Kobe Bryant           4.326
11. Moses Malone          3.478
12. Kevin Garnett         3.388
13. LeBron James          3.083
14. David Robinson        2.431
15. Dwyane Wade           2.179

Yeah, I think if 1986 was to count for MJ, then this would be a deadlock. If 1994 or 1995 he was to get points for playing he would win.

This will probably be similar to Malone beating out Hakeem or Bird beating out Shaq

[Dr Positivity]

Jordan's 9 RPOY might hold up as the outright leader though. Kareem has 7 with 2 seasons left.

[ThaRegul8r]

Jordan's 9 RPOY might hold up as the outright leader though. Kareem has 7 with 2 seasons left.

One of those seasons is a lock. In the other, he's a candidate..