2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki!

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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#61 » by An Unbiased Fan » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:13 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:I really don't see Lebron ahead of Dirk who outshined him in the FInals, or Dwight who was simply the better player in both the regular season & playoffs. Nor do i see him over Durant or Rose whom had comparitive play, and more impact on their teams.


Where you really lose me is in the comparison vs Rose. I mean, we just say their two teams play each other with Wade looking extremely tired, and James just dominated. He literally guarded Rose at time and did so with great effectiveness. I didn't think anyone would still have Rose ahead of James after that.

Because that's one series, and Rose had the better overall year. Rose was the MVP and led the Bulls to the best record with multiple injuries around him. Even still I dropped Rose down to #4 after the ECF, much the same way I dropped Kobe after the 2nd round, and Lebron after the Finals.

If you take stock of the overall year, it's hard to argue Lebron over Rose. Is Lebron a better basketball player talent-wise than Rose, yes. But did Lebron play better ball this season than Rose, no. Any advantage Lebron had over Rose in the ECF, was negated by his horrible play in the FInals.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#62 » by W Z » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:47 am

Gongxi wrote:Just need to make sure new folks aren't taking you seriously.


I don't think there's any problem there. I haven't even been around a month and already know what's up. It really only takes a few days. The avatar is an excellent warning.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#63 » by GilmoreFan » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:31 am

W Z wrote:
Gongxi wrote:Just need to make sure new folks aren't taking you seriously.


I don't think there's any problem there. I haven't even been around a month and already know what's up. It really only takes a few days. The avatar is an excellent warning.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#64 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:47 am

GilmoreFan wrote:
W Z wrote:
Gongxi wrote:Just need to make sure new folks aren't taking you seriously.


I don't think there's any problem there. I haven't even been around a month and already know what's up. It really only takes a few days. The avatar is an excellent warning.

:lol:

How cute, the sockpuppets agreeing with each other. Oh, and W Z...I totally believe that you've only been around for a month. I'm sure Gilmorefan just stumbled onto this forum too. Yep, totally believable.

BTW, great rebuttal to my list. You sure put me in my place.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#65 » by Gongxi » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:55 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Because that's one series


Oh, so just one series doesn't mean much. Okay. Ha, just playing, we're all on board with what you're doing.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#66 » by GilmoreFan » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:24 am

Any advantage Lebron had over Rose in the ECF, was negated by his horrible play in the FInals.

You should quote it just so everyone is clear. One series doesn't matter... unless it's Lebron.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#67 » by ronnymac2 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:09 am

Those four are really tight.

The only thing I'm sure of at this moment is that Dirk is going over Dwight Howard. They're essentially equals as players at this point (maybe slight edge to Dwight because he has more energy to expend in the REG SEA). Nowitzki made up for it with tiebreakers though.

What to do with James and Wade though....I had LeBron in first before the Finals. Before that, I thought it'd been the best year of LeBron's career. Then, he committed my mortal sin of playing like a peripheral player when superstar level play was required. I don't know what to do. I read over the 1968 RPOY thread because I thought Wilt did something similar that year, but I was wrong. Wilt actually didn't play badly in the Finals. I don't even have a template to go on here.

The people battling for fifth would be Rose, Paul, Durant and Bryant.

No to the Spurs or Celtics. Hell no to Pau. Deron Williams gets screwed because of an odd year. No to Melo. Zach Randolph played great, but he doesn't make the cut. Nuh-uh to Bosh and Brian Cardinal. Apologies to Nash, but he ain't included either. I'll vote for Westbrook when he gets a brain.

Amar'e Stoudemire is going to get an HM from me. He's not in the running at all after getting hurt in the playoffs (a big no-no for me), but that dude was amazing this year.

I'm taking Kobe off the list for a possible fifth place finish. He declined enough where I don't mind him going off with a good defender single covering him.



So it's Dirk, Dwight, Dwyane and dud competing for the first four spots. It's Rose, Paul and Durant competing for the fifth spot. I must say I'm leaning towards Rose there.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#68 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:07 pm

Gongxi wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Because that's one series


Oh, so just one series doesn't mean much. Okay. Ha, just playing, we're all on board with what you're doing.

Why in the World would you cherry pick words out of my post, without quoting the FULL sentence?

I said, "Because that's one series, and Rose had the better overall year."

Oh, I see. You had no ability to actually argue agaisnt my list, so the best you could do is try and twist my words. How silly of me to look at the overall year(for player of the YEAR), and not just one series. Kudos
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#69 » by fatal9 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:43 pm

1. Dirk
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Howard
5. Durant
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#70 » by Gongxi » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:31 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
Gongxi wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Because that's one series


Oh, so just one series doesn't mean much. Okay. Ha, just playing, we're all on board with what you're doing.

Why in the World would you cherry pick words out of my post, without quoting the FULL sentence?

I said, "Because that's one series, and Rose had the better overall year."

Oh, I see. You had no ability to actually argue agaisnt my list, so the best you could do is try and twist my words. How silly of me to look at the overall year(for player of the YEAR), and not just one series. Kudos


Huh? We get your joke. We're on board dude. No reason to get butthurt. If you're upset about how you're regarded here, you only have one person to blame, and it's not me.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#71 » by TMACFORMVP » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:09 pm

As I stated in the other thread, I don't like to fall into the trap of "what you've done for me lately," but I think it's too hard to ignore the regular season, and post season that Dirk Nowitzki had. As many others have stated, his regular season is severely underrated. He shot a career high in FG%, and was the unquestioned MVP of the league before he got injured. While I don't like to necessarily give CREDIT to a player that missed games during the regular season, the impact Dirk had on the Mavericks this season was unmatched by any other player. It was almost as if everyone forgot about Dirk after he came back from the injury, and quickly were eager to hop on the Rose for MVP bandwagon (to be fair though, I have no real qualms with Rose being the MVP). The record without Dirk, and the aforementioned +/- stats show that it's arguable that Dirk this season was the difference between a lottery team and an NBA champion.

And his playoffs, simply put, was legendary. It went beyond the 28/8 on 49%, the opportunities he created for his teammates set up the entire Mavericks attack. He was ridiculous in the fourth quarter, not just taking over games, but demoralizing teams with the shots that he hit in the fourth. I agree with those that say despite another all-star caliber player on that Mavs team, his supporting casts consists of veterans that play well off him, and have the capability of stepping up in big games. Chandler was terrific in the Finals exploiting the Heats weakness on the interior, Terry and Marion were unreal, and once Barea got it rolling, it gave the Mavericks another playmaker to put pressure on the Heat's defense. But nonetheless, this was a team many so called “experts” predicted to lose in the first round. They swept Kobe and the Lakers, demolished Durant and the Thunder, and rained on Wade and LeBron's parade in Miami. All these players supposedly more dominant players than Dirk, with better name supporting casts were outshone on the biggest stage.

I don't think LeBron should be any lower than #2 though, he was still likely the best player in NBA for the regular season, and for the most part, save the Finals, very good as well. He's obviously the best all-round player in the league, and an individually the best player in the league, but I don't think he had the better year, nor claimed the title of "POY," since often times, and on the biggest stage, he not only took a backseat to the opponents star player, but his own team as well. Oddly enough, he couldn't even play the Pippen role properly.

For that last sentence, it's the reason why I go back and forth with Dwight and Wade. He was nearly as good in the regular season, and was the best overall player in the Finals. While it would be a double standard to completely forget about his Chicago series (and the Mavs series count so heavily against LeBron), I think it's different scenarios. Not only is the Finals more scrutinized, but LeBron was/is being so heavily bashed because he wasn't being aggressive or looking to attack at all. Wade at least was huge in their comeback in Game 5 of that Chicago series, and was more because of "sucking" than lack of trying.

I also have a very split opinion on the season Dwight had. I mean, he was noticeably better in terms of scoring the ball. He got better positioning, was better at demanding the ball, and overall improved on his touch. We even saw a little bit of range outside the paint on his jumper this season. But I question how MUCH he truly improved in that regard. I'm probably in the minority, but often times I get the feeling with Dwight's improved offensive arsenal, he's also developed a bit of a blackhole syndrome. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing since his teammates are trash, but I think his lack of passing ability with increased touches messed up a bit of Orlando's offensive flow from the past (IIRC, the Magic were in the top 5 in OTRG last season, while just around average this season). The next step in his development is to become that guy you can truly anchor an elite offense around with passing, post play, and perimeter shooting. And we can't really blame Dwight for losing in the first round, Hedo and Arenas are horrible, Nelson is an average point guard, while guys like Bass and Andersen are solid, but nothing more. It's interesting to note the decline in Richardson's play however, from Phoenix to Orlando. I kind of feel I'd take Wade to dominate for a game or series, but I'd take Howard for the course of an entire season, and as someone to build around.

For the last spot, I think it's either Rose, Durant or Kobe. TBH, I'm not the biggest Durant fan either, I think Westbrook got far too much blame for some of the Thunder's struggles. If you're a superstar, like Durant supposedly is, he HAS to be able to demand the ball, and create off the dribble. He's shown that he can be taken out of games with a physical type defense, and I don't think he had nearly as good a season as he did last year. Like when we compare him to Dirk, what case would Dirk even have statistically speaking? But when you saw them play this season, the entire offense ran through Dirk's attention from that mid high post. Often times watching the Thunder, you'd get the idea the offense runs through Westbrook. Dirk at this stage of his career is a better closer, much better in the post, and has a better ability to make something out of nothing; all those things that don't show up in the stat sheet.

I also would like to say that I feel Kobe's "decline" is overblown. He was still doing 25/5/5 on the season, and on a PER36 basis, he actually outproduced his #'s from the past couple of seasons. But, I did notice, an already overrated defender, still took a step back in that regard. I remember one game in particular stood out, against the Pistons, where Kobe was assigned to guard McGrady (lol), and a washed up, over-the-hill McGrady BLEW by him at will. His playoffs let alot to be desired - which is where I suppose majority of the decline talks come from (though, I've heard it all season long, which I don't believe to be the case that many are saying). Gasol choked, and the Lakers PG play is horrible, but a sweep is unacceptable, and Gasol's even worse play overshadowed Kobe's subpar play for most of the series.

I'd take Rose over the both I'd think. His efficiency towards the latter end of the season and playoffs were a bit of a turnoff, but he was the best player on the best team in the NBA record wise for the regular season. He improved his three point shot (but fell in love with it in the playoffs), and at times unstoppable during the regular season. I feel he had more an impact on the NBA this season than the other two did, probably backed up with an MVP award. Whether it wasn't the best competition or not, that goes down in history.

Anyways, just kind of rambling about my thoughts on some of the players this season. For my final rankings, I'd probably go with:

1. Dirk Nowitzki
2. LeBron James
3. Dwight Howard
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Derrick Rose

HM: Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#72 » by ThaRegul8r » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:57 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:I had LeBron in first before the Finals. Before that, I thought it'd been the best year of LeBron's career. Then, he committed my mortal sin of playing like a peripheral player when superstar level play was required. I don't know what to do. I read over the 1968 RPOY thread because I thought Wilt did something similar that year, but I was wrong. Wilt actually didn't play badly in the Finals.


No, he didn't. He would have had to make the Finals in order to play badly in them.

:wink:
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#73 » by ronnymac2 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:56 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:I had LeBron in first before the Finals. Before that, I thought it'd been the best year of LeBron's career. Then, he committed my mortal sin of playing like a peripheral player when superstar level play was required. I don't know what to do. I read over the 1968 RPOY thread because I thought Wilt did something similar that year, but I was wrong. Wilt actually didn't play badly in the Finals.


No, he didn't. He would have had to make the Finals in order to play badly in them.

:wink:


:lol: Touche. Good catch.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#74 » by ronnymac2 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:14 pm

All right, I'm putting Rose over Durant and Paul. Paul was brilliant in the playoffs this year, and I honestly think a healthy Paul could win MVP replacing Rose on Chicago. The thing is, Paul wasn't at 100 percent throughout the season. Although he was dominant in the playoffs, he WAS facing a terrible perimeter defense. I said before the series that Paul would come away with big numbers in a series loss. Though the series was closer than I expected, Paul's production was not larger than I anticipated it'd be. He only gets credit from me for doing what he was supposed to do. I've got to take Rose. He was phenomenal in the playoffs up until the ECF. He gets most of the tiebreakers over Paul as well.

Durant needs to create better.

Rose isn't on tier one for me. There's no question about that. James, Wade, Nowitzki and Howard are all clearly ahead.


Now the fun part.

I've already got Nowitzki over Howard. I do believe Wade is a superior basketball player overall to Nowitzki and Howard (by a little bit). Wade had a poor ECF statistically, but he was aggressive, moved a 5-as-1 defense around in order to help Bosh and James (as opposed to just handing the ball off to them and telling them to create for themselves), made some big plays at important times and played solid defense. He was a menace against Boston and Dallas, and he did his job against an overmatched Philly team. All in all, Wade was amazing this season. Dwight wasn't given the chance to do enough to catch up to Wade as far as tiebreakers go. I'm going with Wade over Howard.

Wade vs. Dirk is interesting...did Dirk do enough to overcome Wade's superiority? Does the title and Finals MVP get him over the hump?

Dirk's change this season isn't very significant imo. There's no inverted peak for him. He became a better player a long time ago, and this past year is just a result of some maintenance, fine-tuning on reading the court and impressive longevity.

http://ronnymacswire.blogspot.com/2011/06/morphing-maverick.html

He's been a championship-caliber offensive anchor for a few years now. I think Wade was superior from 2009 onward- and that's taking into account how I and others had underrated post-2007-debacle Dirk Nowitzki. Wade didn't slip up this season to the point where I need to dock him for playing below his 2009-2010 self. He wasn't as valuable to his team with two stars on it, but he didn't change as a player. I don't believe the accolades get Dirk above Dwyane.

So as of right now, I've got Wade/Dirk/Howard.

And now, for the grand finale...

I thought LBJ was playing better than ever throughout this entire season up until the NBA Finals. Peak LBJ is clearly superior to my D's trio. Then in the Finals, for whatever reason- could be injury, succumbing to the pressure of scrutiny, tired, not knowing how to react to Wade's energy, a shooting slump that hurt his confidence, personal issues, excellent defense by Dallas, thinking facilitation of Wade's game was the way to go since Miami appeared to be successful using that blueprint, etc.- he became a peripheral player. He made himself into a peripheral player.

Early in the year, I talked about exactly how James and Wade had shown an ability to coexist despite their redundancies:

Dwyane Wade and James are underrated long range shooters, but that certainly isn't their strength. By my observations, they are doing just fine together though. Why? Because they take advantage of each other's presence on the court. A reasonable account of a good Miami possession goes like this:

Wade slashes from the top of the key and gets into the paint. He passes out to Mario Chalmers in the corner, who swings it to Lebron on the wing. Now instead of Lebron driving into the teeth of a set defense every single time like he did in Cleveland, he is driving by a recovering defender and into the heart of an already chaotic defense (chaotic because they had to stop Wade). Miami will get:

1. Another series of passes resulting in another slash by a superstar

2. An efficient shot at the rim by James

3. Free throws for James

4. An open, in-rhythm 3-pointer from one of the spot-up shooters

All it takes is a little patience. Just manipulate the defense enough, and you'll get your efficient shot.


In the Dallas series, Lebron gave the ball up to Dwyane early in the shot clock, which is a solid decision at all times because Wade usually had a favorable matchup in which he could start the above cycle of events in a more efficient way than James could. Dwyane did do that.

But when the ball ended up in LeBron's hands and he had a chance to attack a defense in chaos, he generally didn't. By my observations, Dallas didn't defend LBJ differently in THESE PARTICULAR scenarios. They doubled him at the beginning of possessions, but they weren't doubling him off the ball, and no defense is good enough to immediately double a player after said defense has been manipulated to the point that Wade manipulated the Maverick defense.

James screwed up. For some reason, he didn't take advantage. How many times did we see a Miami possession, especially in the final two games of the series, end badly because of overpassing? And how many times did Lebron James get a second touch on these possessions and only contribute a worthless pass to a covered player instead of attacking the defense.

I always say swing passes make champions. But there's a fine line. In such a close series like this one, all James needed to do was play like a struggling Lebron James. Instead, he didn't even give himself a chance to struggle. He just settled into the role of being a very good role player, when that isn't what his team needed at crucial times.

That's a fatal flaw.

So do I put inferior players who i know could still get me to a Finals and didn't show any problem with reading what their respective team needed over James. Or do I take this superior player who gives me the best chance of going far but proved inferior to Dwight/Dirk/Wade at reading what the team needed?

What makes this unprecedented for me is how dominant LBJ looked all season, and how great he was at finding the balance not just in these playoffs, but throughout his entire career.

It's a tough call that I may get heat for, but I'm putting James at fourth. I let 2010's game five pass because it was one game. But this was six straight games of the same crap. Throughout the series of events that transpired within this series, James never realized what his team needed for some reason, a failure that is inconsistent with the LeBron James that I know.

But that happened. I need to dock him for that, and i need to dock him hard.

I value greatly the regular season in which he helped the team adopt championship habits. I think he adapted well enough. His stats were dominant as always. And his playoffs up until the Finals were unreal. He's a great, great player. It sucks that I feel I need to dock him that hard, but...


Final Rankings:

Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwight Howard
Lebron James
Derrick Rose

HM: Amar'e Stoudemire, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant

Honorary Honorable Mention: Shaquille O'Neal
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#75 » by mysticbb » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:46 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:...


Since when is Wade better than James as a basketball player? If James would have played as bad as Wade in the ECF, the Heat would have lost in 4 games. James played better in the finals than Wade in the ECF. There is no point to actually putting James down for his performance level in the finals when Wade is not getting that treatment for his performance in the ECF. Without James AND Bosh there wouldn't be any games for Wade to be played in the finals. Wade had 9 freaking turnovers in the clinching game against the Bulls.

When you want to go by a "better player" standard, then stay consistent and pick James as #1 and maybe Wade or Howard as #2. But you have an inconsistent standard here in which Wade can play incredible bad in a playoff series and James get crushed for the finals series. That makes no sense to me.

ronnymac2 wrote:HM: Amar'e Stoudemire, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant


Well, Stoudemire was the better basketball player than Ginobili or Garnett last season? Really?
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#76 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:59 am

I just explained this...

I can accept a star playing poorly more than I can accept a star turning himself into a role player to the detriment of his own team.


And seriously, you're taking issue with an honorable mention...
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#77 » by mysticbb » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:57 am

ronnymac2 wrote:I can accept a star playing poorly more than I can accept a star turning himself into a role player to the detriment of his own team.


Please, watch both series again, watch the Heat against the Bulls and against the Mavericks, and try to say objectively that Wade's performance in the ECF is more excusable than James' in the finals. And again, without the much better performance of James and the better performance by Bosh Wade wouldn't even be in the finals.

This doesn't even take into account that James played better than Wade in the regular season and also had to do it in more minutes (and more games). Doesn't that count for something? Being the better player for the majority of the season (including game 1 of the finals, btw.) gets completely overshadowed by the last 5 games of the season? Especially when Wade played again poorly in game 6 too?
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#78 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:45 am

My Final Vote:

1. Dirk Nowitzki
This is an easy choice for me. When it comes to literally lifting a team, Dirk has been the personification of this all year long. With the way LeBron came on against Chicago, I thought he was going to make me toss that aside but it didn’t happen.

I’ll admit that I actually thought that Wade was the MVP of the Finals over Dirk, but over the course of the entire season, nobody contributed value like Dirk.

2. Dwight Howard

My regular season MVP got knocked off his perch down to the 3rd spot after the Conference Finals. However he floats back up a spot after LeBron’s weak Finals play. I’m always hesitant to let someone who has already been eliminated rise in my rankings, particularly when they were eliminated in an upset in the first round, however I can’t find real fault in Howard’s playoff performance, and what happened in the Finals did sway my opinion on LeBron’s season.

3. Dwyane Wade

4. LeBron James

I think it makes sense to take these two together. If LeBron ahead of Wade all season, does it really make sense to let one series flip things? More than that, given how LeBron outperformed Wade in the Conference Finals, am I blowing what happened in the actual Finals out of proportion?

While the choice of LeBron over Wade during the regular season, and on the through the first 2 rounds of the playoffs seemed obvious to me, it was by no means a big lead. LeBron was slightly more productive, which is part of why I gave him the nod, but neither player was putting up as impressive numbers as last year. Bottom line is that the team could have focused more on Wade getting his and I don’t think it would have hurt them. My feeling all season long was that the higher ranked of the 2 would be based on what happened when they actually had to fight for their lives. Obviously, that’s where Wade shined, and LeBron disappointed. Hence my decision.

What about LeBron’s performance against Chicago? As great as it was, if it was a bit less great, Miami still wins. And if Miami really was desperate to win, I do think that Wade would have done more in that series. The series helps LeBron’s case over Wade, but I don’t consider the series as big of a negative for Wade as the Finals are for LeBron.

What about how LeBron’s stamina against Chicago allowed Wade to rest which allowed Wade to have more energy against Dallas? It’s a great point and worth discussion. However the fact remains that I felt like each player was the best player in 2 series, and in spite of Wade’s rest he still had comparable productivity stats. Given that I felt like Boston & Dallas were the two toughest teams that Miami faced, and Wade was the star in both series, it just seems like too much to give the nod for stamina.

5. Kevin Durant

After much debate between these two after last round, I’m flipping Durant & Rose in the final vote. The reality that I have to admit is that at this point I still do think Durant is the superior player. I gave Rose the nod before because I was impressed with his contribution to his team’s success, and despite the fact that both players’ teams exited at approximately the same time, the Bulls of course accomplished far more in terms of defeating opponents in the regular season.

As I watched the Mavericks take apart the Heat though, I became more impressed with the Thunder. Also watching LeBron struggle it’s hard not to tip your hat to Durant even though they play very different roles. Despite the fact that OKC was a 4th seed who made the Conference Finals without taking on a 1st seed, and despite the fact that they lost 4-1 when they did take on a superior seed in Dallas, the Thunder hung right with the Mavs the whole way. No team pushed the Mavs in Dallas like the Thunder did, in part because Durant has become so hard to stop.

While it was no fluke that the Mavs beat the Thunder this year, the Thunder really could have won the series, and I don’t take that lightly.

Rose I may be being unfair to. I did after all have him at #1 on my POY list for much of the year. Part of that though was me knowing the difference between the regular season and playoffs and merely acting rationally in a way I don’t think a lot of others do. At no point did I consider Chicago the favorite to win the title this year. I expect them to lose in the playoffs and for that to hurt Rose’s candidacy. However, during the regular season, the Bulls were without question the most impressive team in the league – and that fact is something that should be used to smack down other candidates’ MVP arguments.

Honorable Mention

Derrick Rose

Chris Paul

There were 7 top tier players this year. Paul is clearly the lowest of them, but even more clearly he is a tier above the guys below. His injury was real, people should not ignore it simply because he looked healed by the end. At the same time, it’s quite impressive how much impact he can have even when he’s not 100%.

Zach Randolph

I continue to not feel strongly about the 8 through 10 spots. I thought the playoff hype Randolph got was overblown. I do not believe he his a Top 10 player when all players in the league are healthy, but just in terms of the year that was, his season stacks up with anyone below him.

Chris Bosh

You might have though Bosh would drop out of the top 10 when Miami lost, but nope, he’s still here. The reality is that his advanced stats still really stack up with anyone not in the Top 7, despite the fact that he’s sacrificing for the good of his team. And let’s not for get that when we talk about Miami not reaching it’s potential yet, Bosh is actually the guy who’s progressed furthest toward meeting that goal despite arguably having to make a bigger adjustment than Wade or LeBron.

You’ve hear various people talk about how Bosh is arguably the single more irreplaceable piece for the Heat? As it stands, that’s true. He led the team in RAPM this year for example. He still wouldn’t get a top 10 spot if guys like Deron Williams and Steve Nash were playing their best all season, but as things stand, I’d say he warrants inclusion.

Kobe Bryant

As I reflect, I think I was a touch to harsh on Kobe. I do believe that there is an issue with Kobe thinking he’s helping his team more than he actually is simply because the goal of the game is to win and not win by as much as you can (and this is reflected in +/- stats). However his Laker team easily could have won the title again, and while Kobe never approached the mind blowing level he reached in last year’s playoffs, neither was he the primary reason for the team’s failure.

I had Russell Westbrook at this spot before, but y’know he’s got the same +/- type of issue as Kobe except that with Russell it’s not an issue of regular season coasting but actual trouble working with a superior teammate. I think his trouble should be taken at least as seriously.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#79 » by mysticbb » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:33 am

Doctor MJ wrote:3. Dwyane Wade

4. LeBron James

I think it makes sense to take these two together. If LeBron ahead of Wade all season, does it really make sense to let one series flip things? More than that, given how LeBron outperformed Wade in the Conference Finals, am I blowing what happened in the actual Finals out of proportion?

While the choice of LeBron over Wade during the regular season, and on the through the first 2 rounds of the playoffs seemed obvious to me, it was by no means a big lead. LeBron was slightly more productive, which is part of why I gave him the nod, but neither player was putting up as impressive numbers as last year. Bottom line is that the team could have focused more on Wade getting his and I don’t think it would have hurt them. My feeling all season long was that the higher ranked of the 2 would be based on what happened when they actually had to fight for their lives. Obviously, that’s where Wade shined, and LeBron disappointed. Hence my decision.

What about LeBron’s performance against Chicago? As great as it was, if it was a bit less great, Miami still wins. And if Miami really was desperate to win, I do think that Wade would have done more in that series. The series helps LeBron’s case over Wade, but I don’t consider the series as big of a negative for Wade as the Finals are for LeBron.

What about how LeBron’s stamina against Chicago allowed Wade to rest which allowed Wade to have more energy against Dallas? It’s a great point and worth discussion. However the fact remains that I felt like each player was the best player in 2 series, and in spite of Wade’s rest he still had comparable productivity stats. Given that I felt like Boston & Dallas were the two toughest teams that Miami faced, and Wade was the star in both series, it just seems like too much to give the nod for stamina.


Combined PER and WS/48 for regular season and playoffs with playoff minutes weigthed twice as much:

James: 25.9, 0.227
Wade: 25.9, 0.217

If anything they were basically even, James has the slight edge in terms of per possession production. Now we add the fact that James played a LOT of minutes more than Wade, and it becomes not really close.

James: 4.1 RAPM, 6.3 APM (playoffs included for RAPM, regular season value used as prior for APM)
Wade: 3.6 RAPM, 6.0 APM

Again, James finishes better than Wade in those values based upon possessions. We include the more minutes for James and it becomes not so close.

James was the better basketball player in 2010/11 and the better performer despite his worse finals series and series against the Celtics. And dismissing the best defensive team of the season and the team with the best record as not being a tough competition is somehow weird. And even then, how is it any better to perform worse against worse competitions than performing worse against better competitions?


Additional to that I want to add that Wade's two best games against Dallas came in losses, game 2 and 4 were lost. James outplayed Wade in game 1, when the Heat actually won. And it wasn't like Wade played an incredible game 6, I would even argue that James was better in that game too.
In the series against Boston, Wade had an incredible game 1, and James wasn't good. But Wade was also worse than James in game 2, when the Heat won. Both didn't have a great game in game 3, when the Heat lost, while James had two above average games for his standard in game 4 and 5, while Wade only had that incredible game 5 again.
What I want to say is that James over the course of these playoffs had more consistency, something we should take into account. And when James had above average games, the Heat went 11-1, while the Heat were 6-4 during the games when Wade was above his average (talking about GameScore here).

James better consistency and his bigger impact has to count for something. I find that disturbing that two of the better posters around here are ignoring it, just because James looked only worse in the series against the Mavericks.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread 

Post#80 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:20 pm

I don't see how Wade is over Lebron.

In the regular season, Lebron had a better FG%, TS%, 3P%, FT%, PPG, RPG, APG, SPG. Even "advanced stats" which are typically used in favor for Wade, all went to Lebron in the comparison.

The efficiency differentials for Miami by postion were....

Regular Season:
PG: -0.5 (#17)
SG: +8.0 (#2)
SF: +10.1 (#1)
PF: +4.0 (#4)
C: -4.7 (#28)


Playoffs:
PG: -5.3
SG: +8.9
SF: +9.9
PF: -4.9
C: -2.0

^
So in both the regular and post seasons, the biggest positional advantage Miami had, was at SF.

By pretty much every metric, or stat, or accolade, Lebron is over Wade. And while I agree with Lebron dropping further due to his Finals choke, than Wade due to his poor ECF showing, I don't feel it's anywhere near enough for Wade to overtake Lebron.

Further, I'm really unclear how Wade is about guys like Dirk, Dwight, Rose, Durant. If we were voting on who the best NBA talent was, then Wade is Top 5 easily, but did he really play better this year than those guys, or even guys like Paul, Kobe, Zach, Manu?
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