RealGM Top 100 List #8

[Sedale Threatt]

For starters, Kobe's a vastly better playoff performer.

A good place to start. Glancing at Karl's dossier, there are some pretty significant dips.

[Baller 24]

I know how you feel about making too much/too little of Finals games, but I can't help holding it against him that he wasn't at his best when he had opportunities to win titles.

Opportunities very well persisted in '94 and '95 as well, faced the champion both seasons too.

[Laimbeer]

Kobe has impressive longevity, but if this project is about the best players as opposed to the best accolades, there's really not much of an argument for him as compared to Duncan and Olajuwon. Definitely in the Moses/Dr. J/Karl/West/Oscar/KG tier.

Exactly, something I'm continued to stress, seems like 10% of the posters participating are focusing and narrowing in too much on the career factor.

Career, or longevity, is a factor. Just taking a player's prime misses the point.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I'm still trying to figure how Hakeem & Duncan are better players than Kobe. Bryant's offensive production is equal if not greater than the defensive effect they had. I mean if a team has 90 possessions or so, and a defensive anchor effects maybe 50% of those possesions, how many more points is he stopping, than Bryant is producing?

What are we looking at, maybe a 6-10 point differential? Because that's the edge Kobe has on offenesive production over both bigmen. And I'm not even counting Kobe's effect on his own defense.

Results seem to back up this argument. Again, I refer people to re-watch the LA vs SA playoff series. Who was the better player? People say TD had a better peak, yet pre-peak Kobe out performed him 3-1 during his prime years.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Hakeem Olajuwon

Nominate: Charles Barkley

It comes down to Hakeem vs. Duncan for me. While Duncan clearly has a better career resume, Olajuwon was the superior basketball player. If two players are equal as players, I give it the guy who had the best career. If a guy's career is a ton better than a superior player, I'll strongly consider, and likely will, move the guy with the resume up.

But in this case, Olajuwon's career is stupendous relative to all-timers as well. It's not like he's Bill Walton or an underappreciated Walt Frazier (not garnering many awards during the '70's) or something like that.

Why is Hakeem a better basketball player? Well, I think Duncan has an edge as far as consistency of reading defenses, making him a superior passer throughout the course of their careers. Hakeem always had the creativity and willingness to pass, which is great, but he had a hard time sometimes with the doubles and triples teams threw at him. I don't think he always bought into the fact that he could make a pass that could lead to the all-important swing pass that I always champion. Duncan generally did. Hakeem reached that level in 1993, Duncan earlier in his career.

Still though, that's one aspect of being an offensive anchor (though an important one). Hakeem was the better scorer, especially in the playoffs. His 1986 and 1987 are fantastic. In that 49/25/6 masterpiece, he scored from all over the place against swarms of defenders. Young Hakeem may have been raw relative to 1995 Hakeem, but he still was more skilled AND effective than almost any scoring center ever. Non-peak years, Hakeem and Duncan are really comparable as offensive anchors (I'd give a slight edge to Dream). Peak years...clearly Hakeem.

Defensively, Hakeem is the second best defensive player in NBA history imo. Duncan may have been a superior defensive rebounder, but Hakeem was better as a shot-blocker, ball thief, pick-n-roll defender, general disruptor in the paint/around the rim, transition defender, and I'd even argue man defender.

As for the nomination...I've decided to see about Barkley vs. Dirk at a later date. DrMJ and others have made very good arguments for Dirk though. I'm really thinking about adding a "clearly" when I say Dirk over Robinson. For now, I'm taking the easy way out and choosing Barkley. Not that I didn't put thought into it- Charles was a dominant player, especially in the playoffs.

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm still trying to figure how Hakeem & Duncan are better players than Kobe. Bryant's offensive production is equal if not greater than the defensive effect they had. I mean if a team has 90 possessions or so, and a defensive anchor effects maybe 50% of those possesions, how many more points is he stopping, than Bryant is producing?

Even if you use a roster stat like APM, what are we looking at, maybe a 6-10 point differential? Because that's the edge Kobe has on offenesive production over both bigmen. And I'm not even counting Kobe's effect on his own defense.

Assuming that's true, which I don't believe, what about the converse?

Whatever impact Kobe was having on defense, which I think was pretty significantly overstated in a lot of cases, I don't think it can touch the fact that Duncan and Olajuwon were, on the other end of the court, capable of dominating there as well.

Was Kobe's defense the equivalent to Olajuwon averaging 29 and 33 during success title runs, or Duncan doing what he did? Not even close, in my opinion.

And that's not even accounting for another critical area, rebounding, in which Bryant doesn't even register. Of course, that's not his fault as a shooting guard. But it's still a big bonus for the big men, especially big men of this caliber. So that's another facet.

Again, I refer people to re-watch the LA vs SA playoff series. Who was the better player? People say TD had a better peak, yet pre-peak Kobe out performed him 3-1 during his prime years.

I don't even see how that's a factor. They don't even play the same position.

[Gongxi]

Kobe has impressive longevity, but if this project is about the best players as opposed to the best accolades, there's really not much of an argument for him as compared to Duncan and Olajuwon. Definitely in the Moses/Dr. J/Karl/West/Oscar/KG tier.

Exactly, something I'm continued to stress, seems like 10% of the posters participating are focusing and narrowing in too much on the career factor.

Career, or longevity, is a factor. Just taking a player's prime misses the point.

I'm pretty sure he meant career as in accolades. Like "Hey, he's got a ROY, two MVPs, three scoring titles, and 13 All Star selections: he's had a pretty good career!"

[pancakes3]

as a short little post on hakeem's offense compared to kobe... in kobe's back-to-back finals MVP series, he put up ~30/5.5/5.5 for the playoffs (which is really good) and hakeem put up 30/10.5/4 which is phenomenal. if you want to compare the 3peak kobe where he averaged 20, 30, and 25 ppg respectively, they're comparable to the other times where Dream went deep into the playoffs including his sophomore finals appearance and '97 where he got bounced by Malone.

hakeem was just as effective a scorer in the playoffs as Kobe, good for 26/11/3 (.569 TS%) for career averages compared to Kobe's 25/5/5 (.542 TS%)

[An Unbiased Fan]

Assuming that's true, which I don't believe, what about the converse?

Whatever impact Kobe was having on defense, which I think was pretty significantly overstated in a lot of cases, I don't think it can touch the fact that Duncan and Olajuwon were, on the other end of the court, capable of dominating there as well.

Was Kobe's defense the equivalent to Olajuwon averaging 29 and 33 during success title runs, or Duncan doing what he did? Not even close, in my opinion.

And that's not even accounting for another critical area, rebounding, in which Bryant doesn't even register. Of course, that's not his fault as a shooting guard. But it's still a big bonus for the big men, especially big men of this caliber. So that's another facet.

I actually posted the numbers earlier. Kobe had a direct hand(Pts + Ast) in around 38-42 PPG for LA over the last decade fairly consistently. Duncan was from 30-37 PPG, and Hakeem was around 27-34 PPG while peaking (94-95) around 40.

And I like I said above, I wasn't even counting Kobe's defense. My question was how much defensive impact would the bigmen need to counteract Kobe's offensive imapct as a scorer, and facilitator. I also include rebounding with defense.

I don't even see how that's a factor. They don't even play the same position.

Shaq & Duncan didn't play the same postion, neither did Bird & Magic. My point is that from 01-04', LA & SA met in the playoffs 4 straight years. Kobe was the best player on the floor 3 out of the 4 times they met in those crucial series.

If TD's peak is higher than Bryant's, then how did a pre-peak Kobe outperform a prime TD in the playoffs so consistently?

[pancakes3]

If TD's peak is higher than Bryant's, then how did a pre-peak Kobe outperform a prime TD in the playoffs so consistently?

ha. haha. hahaha.

[Baller 24]

Again, I refer people to re-watch the LA vs SA playoff series. Who was the better player? People say TD had a better peak, yet pre-peak Kobe out performed him 3-1 during his prime years.

I don't even see how that's a factor. They don't even play the same position.

Exactly, at least in comparing Shaq v Duncan, you've also got two front-court players that frequently played each other head to head 70+% of the time.

And in terms of "outperformed" using a playoff series record also takes into account a significant amount of factors, like the structured supporting cast around each of their respective teams.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Again, I refer people to re-watch the LA vs SA playoff series. Who was the better player? People say TD had a better peak, yet pre-peak Kobe out performed him 3-1 during his prime years.

I don't even see how that's a factor. They don't even play the same position.

Exactly, at least in comparing Shaq v Duncan, you've also got two front-court players that frequently played each other head to head 70+% of the time.

And in terms of "outperformed" using a playoff series record also takes into account a significant amount of factors, like the structured supporting cast around each of their respective teams.

I'm not reffering to playoff record. Kobe as an individual, was the best player on the floor in the 01', 02', & 04' series. I didn't bring up wins at all.

2001: Kobe goes in SA, and demolishes the towers
2002: Kobe leads LA back from a 1-2 series deficit with 3 straight 10+ 4th quarters, and 3 straight comeback vicotries.
2004: Kobe again played the best.

I mean Kobe was doing this against Bowen 2 out of the 3 series, while TD was being guarded by Grant, Madsen, & Samaki.

[Sedale Threatt]

I actually posted the numbers earlier. Kobe had a direct hand(Pts + Ast) in around 38-42 PPG for LA over the last decade fairly consistently. Duncan was from 30-37 PPG, and Hakeem was around 27-34 PPG while peaking (94-95) around 40.

And I like I said above, I wasn't even counting Kobe's defense. My question was how much defensive impact would the bigmen need to counteract Kobe's offensive imapct as a scorer, and facilitator. I also include rebounding with defense.

I believe the edge that Olajuwon and Duncan both have defensively more than make up for whatever advantage Bryant has on offense. We've already had this discussion, so you know that I think that Kobe has been overrated as a defensive player for much of his career. Sometimes significantly so.

My point is that from 01-04', LA & SA met in the playoffs 4 straight years. Kobe was the best player on the floor 3 out of the 4 times they met in those crucial series.

If TD's peak is higher than Bryant's, then how did a pre-peak Kobe outperform a prime TD in the playoffs so consistently?

It's a nice feather in Kobe's cap. I just don't think it significantly matters as one had no direct control over the other. For example, it's not like Duncan could have made up for Antonio Daniels being a horrific defender in 01.

But I'll humor you -- let's say that eliminates Duncan from the equation.

What about Olajuwon, then?

[Sedale Threatt]

Anyway, I'm about to head out for vacation, and my internet access will be sporadic (I hope) so my participation for the next couple of weeks will be limited.

Vote: Olajuwon
Nominate: Nowitzki

[Baller 24]

Anyway, I'm about to head out for vacation, and my internet access will be sporadic (I hope) so my participation for the next couple of weeks will be limited.

Vote: Olajuwon
Nominate: Nowitzki

If you want to give a list, you're more than welcome to message penbeast it.

[jaypo]

Anyway, I'm about to head out for vacation, and my internet access will be sporadic (I hope) so my participation for the next couple of weeks will be limited.

Vote: Olajuwon
Nominate: Nowitzki

Have fun and be careful!

[An Unbiased Fan]

I believe the edge that Olajuwon and Duncan both have defensively more than make up for whatever advantage Bryant has on offense. We've already had this discussion, so you know that I think that Kobe has been overrated as a defensive player for much of his career. Sometimes significantly so.

That's really the question I'm asking, and I can respect people's opinions if they feel differently. The individual offense vs individual defense factor, actually came up during the Bird vs Duncan discussions, so I'm still trying to get more input on how people feel about this.

Balancing a guy like Magic's offense, with a defender like Russell's defense is tricky. Bird's offense vs Hakeem's defense? Barkley's offense vs KG's defense?

That's all I'm trying to sort out. I know we differ on Bryant's defensive impact, but I do think that it tips the scale in his favor over TD & Hakeem. The fact that Kobe isn't all offense, and has been a key defender for LA, does hold importance.

It's a nice feather in Kobe's cap. I just don't think it significantly matters as one had no direct control over the other. For example, it's not like Duncan could have made up for Antonio Daniels being a horrific defender in 01.

But I'll humor you -- let's say that eliminates Duncan from the equation.

What about Olajuwon, then?

Well, those series did re-write the NBA history books. SA had HCA and were favorites going into the 01' series. In 02', Shaq was banged up, and LA was down 1-2, that could have stopped a 3-peat. In 04', that series prevented a possible Spurs 3-peat. If Duncan was a better player, then why didn't he play better, considering the stiffs LA threw at him on defense.

As for Hakeem vs Kobe. Both are highly skilled, both are 2-way players, but I feel Kobe's career resume puts him ahead. When Kenny Smith says Kobe is better than his longtime teammate, that's saying something. By pretty much every metric we have used so far in the project, Kobe should be ahead of Hakeem.

[34Dayz]

I'm not reffering to playoff record. Kobe as an individual, was the best player on the floor in the 01', 02', & 04' series.

However your ignoring how well Shaq performed in most of those series' and when you take into account that Kobe was given single coverage most of the time due to SA focusing mostly on slowing down Shaq its hard to say that Kobe was the most valuable player in all of those series. I could see a clear argument for one of them but I think Shaq has a fair case for best/most impactful player in the other ones.

Shaq had a great series in 04 vs SA and clearly outplayed Duncan that year.

Not trying to downplay his impact but Shaq was still "Shaq" those years and he was doing his thing on both ends of the court.

[Baller 24]

I actually posted the numbers earlier. Kobe had a direct hand(Pts + Ast) in around 38-42 PPG for LA over the last decade fairly consistently. Duncan was from 30-37 PPG, and Hakeem was around 27-34 PPG while peaking (94-95) around 40.

And I like I said above, I wasn't even counting Kobe's defense. My question was how much defensive impact would the bigmen need to counteract Kobe's offensive imapct as a scorer, and facilitator. I also include rebounding with defense.

I don't think you're understanding what he's stating, why are you using PPG as an indicator to measure their offensive level when both Olajuwon & Duncan have completely different roles offensively compared to Bryant?

It absolutely makes no sense, considering they have different roles offensively, I have no idea how PPG indicates automatically how a perimeter based player instructed to score at all times is automatically the best offensive player.

Also consider the fact that in '03 and '94 neither had a player on the perimeter that was capable of creating their own shot, shouldering the load offensively, consistently closing out games WITH either Duncan or Olajuwon NOT on the floor.

With Bryant we've seen that on numerous occasions considering he's been blessed with numerous post established offensive players, even when he's not on the floor, you've seen the Lakers take leads, go on runs, and close out games.

And in terms of defense, big-men have the ability to impact a defensive scheme in a varity of ways (I've only see three-four perimeter players impact an entire defense, and that's Jordan & Pippen's Bulls, Wade & LeBron's Heat, and LeBron's Cavs).

Bryant's ability on defense doesn't come close to the impact the big-men have, considering he's more strict to playing good individual defense (and even that's been overrated and completely dismantling the accolade that stands for All-NBA Defense, considering he doesn't play it 100% of the time).

So to answer your question Duncan & Olajuwon both have a significant defensive advnatage compared to that of Bryant, whereas Bryant's "PPG" measure of offensive accuary isn't close to being enough to consider him the greater offensive player, considering both have won championships without a proven caliber player, taking on even more of an offensive load.

My point is that from 01-04', LA & SA met in the playoffs 4 straight years. Kobe was the best player on the floor 3 out of the 4 times they met in those crucial series.

I'm not going to calculate the numbers, but here are Duncan's numbers against the Lakers until 2004:

25.9 PPG, 12.8 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.7 BPG, FG 47%

If TD's peak is higher than Bryant's, then how did a pre-peak Kobe outperform a prime TD in the playoffs so consistently?

Why are you using head-to-head match-ups as an indicator to suggest who's better in the playoffs? There's a lot of things that go into factoring who wins a series, key roles by significant players (Fisher's defense on Johnson/Porter (36% combined), or I don't know..maybe having one of the most dominant players in league history to help out. Duncan never had the kind of support.

I'm not reffering to playoff record. Kobe as an individual, was the best player on the floor in the 01', 02', & 04' series. I didn't bring up wins at all.

Though you're still referring to head-t-head match ups, which completely makes no sense.

I mean Kobe was doing this against Bowen 2 out of the 3 series, while TD was being guarded by Grant, Madsen, & Samaki.

Lol. And he still put up very dominant numbers --- 25.9 PPG, 12.8 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.7 BPG, FG 47% along with Shaq's help defense, and the Lakers having one of the best paint defensees in the league with Shaq +6.7 (ranked 3 ) in '01 & +7.1 (ranked 2) in '02. What do you have to refer to after Duncan's dominant effort? You're obviously going to state the winner of that series, where there are numerous factors taken into place that I started eariler (like having a superstar).

[Gongxi]

By pretty much every metric we have used so far in the project, Kobe should be ahead of Hakeem.

Absolutely not, especially when you admit you're using his "career resume" as opposed to how well he played basketball (great, but not as good as Hakeem did).