does shaq have a case for #2 GOAT

[jaypo]

If you look at stats, achievement, awards ...no, but if you look at impact, dominance then yes and I even go as far as say Shaq had more impact on the game in his prime then Jordan. But anyway I would rank Shaq behind only Jordan and Kareem .

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Russel
6. Magic
7. Hakeem

For all the bitching about "this player was better 2 way than Shaq, MJ did this, etc", do you guys realize that the entire NBA was changed because of Shaq's dominance? They had to change the way they made the entire goal- backboard, rim, and assembly because of his power. And they changed the entire ruleboook because of him! If that doesn't tell the difference between he and Drob, Ewing, and Akeem.

The reason he had no competition at Center was because he was Shaq! There WAS no competition. I don't care who you put in their prime against him.

Die93- your analysis about Kobe and Shaq's point totals are invalid. There is more to the game than scoring points! But hey, you're a Kobe fan. So scoring is all that matters in your eyes. For all of your hootin' about Kobe's "Stellar defense" (against Bowen and Christie) in those playoffs, you forget about Shaq being the defensive anchor. And you conveniently leave out rebounds and field goal %, don't you! So I ask you this- is the player putting up more points (even if it is 1.9 ppg ) on 57% from the field not doing more for his team than the player putting up less on worse %?

[Rapcity_11]

For all the bitching about "this player was better 2 way than Shaq, MJ did this, etc", do you guys realize that the entire NBA was changed because of Shaq's dominance? They had to change the way they made the entire goal- backboard, rim, and assembly because of his power. And they changed the entire ruleboook because of him! If that doesn't tell the difference between he and Drob, Ewing, and Akeem.

1. How does this make him a better basketball player?
2. The entire rulebook? Come on. What exactly changed?

[34Dayz]

@ Pancakes : I agree my opinion isn't shared with the majority.

I do think Jordan has a healthy case over Shaq for GOAT but I do think you vastly underrate his defensive ability but we all have our own opinions.

My view of Shaqs defense.
Hakeem was an A in every defensive catergory
Duncan was an A- in every defensive category

Shaq was an A or A+ in most defensive category's like M2M, Shot Blocking, Lane intimidation etc.. all except for help/pnr defense where I feel he is a B or a B+ for most of his career until he slowed down and then maybe dropped to a C or a C-.

B = Around Average
B+ = Slightly better then Average

I feel he was one of the best defensive 2 way C's in the league from 93-03 only with Duncan and Hakeem being better and I dont feel Duncans impact defensively was signifcantly more then Oneal.

Anyway when I say players like Ewing "arent on his tier" I mean he is just too much better then Ewing to even compare the two. Atleast Duncan Hakeem can are on Shaqs level so I would compare them, same with KAJ and Wilt, I dont feel Ewing,DRob,Moses belong on the same Tier as those GOAT centers but right below them.

C = Bad
C- = Pretty Bad

[jaypo]

For all the bitching about "this player was better 2 way than Shaq, MJ did this, etc", do you guys realize that the entire NBA was changed because of Shaq's dominance? They had to change the way they made the entire goal- backboard, rim, and assembly because of his power. And they changed the entire ruleboook because of him! If that doesn't tell the difference between he and Drob, Ewing, and Akeem.

1. How does this make him a better basketball player?
2. The entire rulebook? Come on. What exactly changed?

I didn't say it made him better. It reinforced the fact that the NBA acknowledged his dominance.

They changed the way that defenses were allowed to play. There was a thing called "illegal defense"- you couldn't double team anyone until he had the ball in his hands, and you couldn't play "free safety" more or less. Since the game had become a "pound it in the post" game because of Shaq, the rules were changed to allow defenses to sag on the post player without it being an infraction. And even that couldn't stop him.

Conversely, in 2005, the rules were chagnged to help Kobe specifically because he wasn't able to flourish against the 04 Pistons' defense. So the game was made EASIER for wing players like he and Wade just a couple of years after the rules were changed to make it harder for Shaq.

Similar to widening the lane to prevent Mikan from domninating.

[Rapcity_11]

For all the bitching about "this player was better 2 way than Shaq, MJ did this, etc", do you guys realize that the entire NBA was changed because of Shaq's dominance? They had to change the way they made the entire goal- backboard, rim, and assembly because of his power. And they changed the entire ruleboook because of him! If that doesn't tell the difference between he and Drob, Ewing, and Akeem.

1. How does this make him a better basketball player?
2. The entire rulebook? Come on. What exactly changed?

I didn't say it made him better. It reinforced the fact that the NBA acknowledged his dominance.

They changed the way that defenses were allowed to play. There was a thing called "illegal defense"- you couldn't double team anyone until he had the ball in his hands, and you couldn't play "free safety" more or less. Since the game had become a "pound it in the post" game because of Shaq, the rules were changed to allow defenses to sag on the post player without it being an infraction. And even that couldn't stop him.

Conversely, in 2005, the rules were chagnged to help Kobe specifically because he wasn't able to flourish against the 04 Pistons' defense. So the game was made EASIER for wing players like he and Wade just a couple of years after the rules were changed to make it harder for Shaq.

Similar to widening the lane to prevent Mikan from domninating.

If it doesn't make him a better basketball player, I fail to see how it helps his GOAT ranking...?

So they started to allow zone. Yup. That's really changing the entire rulebook because of Shaq

[jaypo]

It changed the way the game could be played! I didn't say it helped his GOAT ranking, did I? I simply said it to strengthen the argument.

Typical Shaq hater/Kobe Lover. The league changes the rules to slow Shaq down, and you downplay it as "well, it wasn't significant because YOU said it changed the entire rulebook, but it didn't, so it's irrelavent."

[Rapcity_11]

It changed the way the game could be played! I didn't say it helped his GOAT ranking, did I? I simply said it to strengthen the argument.

If it doesn't make him a better basketball player or relate to on-court impact I don't see how it strengthens an argument.

Typical Shaq hater/Kobe Lover. The league changes the rules to slow Shaq down, and you downplay it as "well, it wasn't significant because YOU said it changed the entire rulebook, but it didn't, so it's irrelavent."

Shaq hater/Kobe Lover? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Never thought I'd see the day where I'm referred to as a Kobe Lover. That gave me a good laugh.

Where did I say it was irrelevent? You said the entire rulebook was changed and I pointed out that wasn't true. Nothing more, nothing less. Talk about putting words in someones mouth...

This is what I said on page 1:

"He does not have accolades and titles over:
Jordan
Russell
KAJ

IMO Shaq has a case for 5-9.

Oh, and yes there is absolutely justification for Duncan or Dream over Shaq. I don't see it that way, but the argument is possible."

How does that make me a Shaq hater?

[jaypo]

You do the same thing that everybody else that falls into those 2 categories does. Instead of commenting on the meaning of what I said, you comment on how I went about saying it! Of course I know that they didn't change the ENTIRE rulebook. They changed the rules about defense. But instead of bringing some intelligent conversation to the table about it, your reply was "they didn't change the ENTIRE rulebook because of Shaq".

And the fact that they had to change the rules to slow down his impact DOES relate to his on court impact! If you can't see that, I don't really see any point in discussing anything with you.

[Rapcity_11]

You do the same thing that everybody else that falls into those 2 categories does. Instead of commenting on the meaning of what I said, you comment on how I went about saying it! Of course I know that they didn't change the ENTIRE rulebook. They changed the rules about defense. But instead of bringing some intelligent conversation to the table about it, your reply was "they didn't change the ENTIRE rulebook because of Shaq".

And the fact that they had to change the rules to slow down his impact DOES relate to his on court impact! If you can't see that, I don't really see any point in discussing anything with you.

You do realize that it's pretty hard to pick up hyperbole/sarcasasm etc. on the internet...right? Maybe you should change your writing style? Also, maybe try and act a little more mature for a person your age?

[FuShengTHEGreat]

A "prime Shaq" in THEE worst Center era since the Mikan days with little to no head 2 head competition couldn't even out-do a aging soon to be 35 yr. old Dikembe Mutombo on a all-NBA defensive team, but yet he's better defensively than Kareem?

Who really thinks Wilt, Russell, Kareem or Hakeem at the zenith of their careers would be upstaged by a 34 yr. old Deke on a All-D team? That wouldn't even happen to David Robinson.

Shaq is definitely a top5 all-time Center. Anywhere from 3-5 behind Kareem the GOAT C and Hakeem to me.

[34Dayz]

Does it really matter how many points Mutombo is scoring when Shaq is dropping 33/16 on him and practically sweeping Mutombo's team... kind of a bad argument there.

[ahonui06]

Once again, Shaq is not the 2nd best all-time.

He doesn't have a case over individuals like Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

As rapcity mentioned, he has a case for 5-9.

[34Dayz]

Once again, Shaq is not the 2nd best all-time.

He doesn't have a case over individuals like Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

As rapcity mentioned, he has a case for 5-9.

Career wise he certainly doesn't (well maybe against Magic he does)

but as an individual player I think you could certainly make an argument for him against Magic/Russell and Kareem.

I am a person who strongly believes Accolades come not only from individual greatness but also from what time/age you play in, what team/players you play with, and what teams you get matched up against. For Example if Shaqs Rookie Year was around 96-98 his Career might be entirely different, he'd be hitting his absolute Prime around 03-08 and be dominant probably until 09-11. Maybe he ends up with a few more rings in that scenario and few more MVP's, but would he really be a better player? No.

[jaypo]

A "prime Shaq" in THEE worst Center era since the Mikan days with little to no head 2 head competition couldn't even out-do a aging soon to be 35 yr. old Dikembe Mutombo on a all-NBA defensive team, but yet he's better defensively than Kareem?

Who really thinks Wilt, Russell, Kareem or Hakeem at the zenith of their careers would be upstaged by a 34 yr. old Deke on a All-D team? That wouldn't even happen to David Robinson.

Shaq is definitely a top5 all-time Center. Anywhere from 3-5 behind Kareem the GOAT C and Hakeem to me.

The worst era? You DO realize that he faced players like PRIME Ewing, DRob, Akeem, Duncan, Mutombo, and Deke, Yao, and Dwight, don't you? Actually, Shaq came into the league in one of the BEST eras for center play. I know you're gonna say "he didn't win anything until they were old". Well, do you criticize MJ for winning in a weak SG era??

Why can't you just admit that Shaq was a great player? You've NEVER answered my question as to why you hate him so much.

[Gongxi]

As a basketball player (the only thing that matters, as opposed to accolades) he had a great, GOAT-level peak. He didn't sustain it long enough for an actual GOAT argument, though.

[jaypo]

As a basketball player (the only thing that matters, as opposed to accolades) he had a great, GOAT-level peak. He didn't sustain it long enough for an actual GOAT argument, though.

Dude is #6 all time in MVP shares! He had a peak from about 95-2004. That's 10 seasons. And he is the only player to average 20 and 10 for 13 seasons in a row. If that isn't sustained greatness, I'm not sure what the criteria is.

Again, I posted the playoff history of Shaq vs. Akeem in a different thread, and it showed the difference between the 2. Akeem had 7 1st round exits vs. Shaq's 1 in their 1st 14 years. Shaq had 6 finals appearances vs. 3. And he had more conferenc finals appearances.

But off the soapbox. I don't think Shaq's #2. #5-7, but not 2. And he's my favorite player!

[34Dayz]

I don't know.. I think Oneal's play in the 90's is underrated due to the fact that he had to face Prime/Peak Hakeem in his Third season (and the chocking of his teammates) and then had to cope with the Dominance of the Bulls like everyone else.

Consider from 00-06 Having Shaq on the team gave you a really good chance at making the Finals.
5 Final Berth's + ECF = 4 Titles. Imagine if Shaq was Duncan or Kobes age and still had a few good years left in the tank he could have easily won 2-3 more Titles with Miami or another Franchise and ended up with 6-7 Rings.

Some people try to say he had great supporting casts before Kobe became a Star in 98,99 but I pretty strongly disagree with that, Eddie Jones was a good defender but offensively he was weak, in 99 he averaged what 12-13ppg on horrid Iverson level efficiency.

Fisher was just out of his Rookie year and hadn't yet fully developed and Glen Rice was firmly on the downslope of his Career and even though he was still a great 3point shooter his offense on the whole was fairly limited and he didn't shoot very effectively from the floor.

Other then that there arent many other players worth mentioning... Tryon Lue? (lol) and someone was telling me (oh they had Elden Campbell and he was great) Really? They had Elden for 17 Games that year (he only started 1 game) and he averaged 6 Points and 4 Rebounds on 42% shooting wow.. what a Star.

That LA Team had no Chance against TDuncans Spurs in the 2nd Round who's overall team was just so much better it didnt matter how good Shaq could of played they had Zero Chance.

I mean TDuncan + DRob + Elliot + Rose, Kerr, Johnson.
DRob was still giving 15/10/2.5 and was still very good defensively especially with Duncan anchoring the offense and letting him play off him it really allowed him to focus on his defense which is a big part of why those 99-03 Spurs teams were so good defensively.

TD and Duncan make it pretty hard for Shaq that year but he still managed to drop 36 and 14 on them in the Final game of the sweep and tried his hardest to extend the series.

[Gongxi]

He obviously has sustained greatness. I never said he didn't. I said he didn't sustain it long enough to have a serious GOAT argument.

He's better than 99.999% of all NBA players, ever. But there's a couple of guys that are better, and even if their peaks aren't better (Shaq's peak is arguably the best ever), their greater sustainment of their peaks put them above him.

And yes, I think we all know very clearly that he's your favorite player.

[jaypo]

He obviously has sustained greatness. I never said he didn't. I said he didn't sustain it long enough to have a serious GOAT argument.

He's better than 99.999% of all NBA players, ever. But there's a couple of guys that are better, and even if their peaks aren't better (Shaq's peak is arguably the best ever), their greater sustainment of their peaks put them above him.

And yes, I think we all know very clearly that he's your favorite player.

I think his peak lasted about 10 years. That's pretty significant. Look at it this way- his peak lasted longer than Yao's entire career! And only 3 less years than Russell's entire career.

[Gongxi]

So you're saying he was as good for ten years as he was in 99-00?