RealGM Top 100 List #22

[lorak]

3) If Stockton was truly amongst the elite peaks as the nominees that are surrounding him (Ewing, Nash, Wade, Frazier, Isiah ETC), shouldn't the Jazz have dominated a lot more during his statistically peak seasons, especially with the caliber player Karl Malone was?

Maybe Malone wasn't as good as some think...

4) Between Cowens v Frazier, there's one problem there. When Cowens won his MVP, I'm not even sure you can call it legitimate, remember there are various and numerous articles, quotes, and speculation stating the only reason Cowens was awarded it was because the league didn't want to give KAJ three consecutive MVPs.

League had nothing to say in this case, because it was players, who chose MVP at that time.

[penbeast0]

And Kareem was a sullen, unpleasant opponent who clearly identified with the radical Muslim movement in an era of strong racial tensions. If it's a popularity contest, Kareem isn't going to win often.

[lorak]

And Kareem was a sullen, unpleasant opponent who clearly identified with the radical Muslim movement in an era of strong racial tensions.

True, but still black players would rather vote for KAJ than white Cowens.

If it's a popularity contest, Kareem isn't going to win often.

From '71 to '77, so in 7 seasons, KAJ won MVP 5 times.

He did not win only in 1973 (but still was 2nd!) after very disappointing playoffs in 1972 (Wilt and Thurmond shut him down, so it's very probable that many players have doubts if KAJ really is the best player)
and in 1975 when he was injured and Bucks record was very bad.
So I don't think KAJ didn't won more MVPs because it's popularity contest.

[Doctor MJ]

3) If Stockton was truly amongst the elite peaks as the nominees that are surrounding him (Ewing, Nash, Wade, Frazier, Isiah ETC), shouldn't the Jazz have dominated a lot more during his statistically peak seasons, especially with the caliber player Karl Malone was?

Maybe Malone wasn't as good as some think...

[/quote]

Well, the 2 facts that make that skepticism tough are:

1) We know the Jazz had inflated assist totals at Stockton's peak, and that it's Stockton's assists that make people question whether he was actually more important than Malone.

2) The team's offense really got great (and the team became title contenders) after Stockton's statistical peak as the team became increasingly dependent on Malone. More assists from Malone, more minutes from Malone relative to Stockton's minutes.

By no means is that "proof", but it doesn't help Stockton's case.

[penbeast0]

If you go to the statistical analysis board, you will find that the Jazz did inflate assists a bit during Stockton's tenure, but not nearly to the extent that, say, the Lakers did during Magic's tenure . . . oddly enough the Suns deflate assist totals during Nash's run

And it's not a shock that the Jazz's offense got better when they added another top flight shooter to give them a 3rd option in Jeff Hornacek. Compare his efficiency and willingness to work within the confines of the offense to, say, Darrell Griffith.

[lorak]

And it's not a shock that the Jazz's offense got better when they added another top flight shooter to give them a 3rd option in Jeff Hornacek. Compare his efficiency and willingness to work within the confines of the offense to, say, Darrell Griffith.

This Doc.

And we know that in 1998 Stockton's impact was big, all time great and he was after injury. We also know several different APM numbers and Stockton also looks very good here, better than Malone. On the other hand what we know about outside of box score impact of Karl? Big man who loves mid range jumpers isn't too valuable unless he is Dirk Nowitkzi.

[Laimbeer]

3) If Stockton was truly amongst the elite peaks as the nominees that are surrounding him (Ewing, Nash, Wade, Frazier, Isiah ETC), shouldn't the Jazz have dominated a lot more during his statistically peak seasons, especially with the caliber player Karl Malone was?

How were Ewing and Nash's teams at their peaks any more dominant? I'd suggest they weren't as good as Stockton's.