RealGM Top 100 #35

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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#61 » by colts18 » Wed Sep 7, 2011 5:04 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:When you look at raw volume, McHale per 36 minutes scored a little more than Dwight, getting a few more FGA, a few fewer FTA, but being a lot close than that in FT makes. I concede that pace, fast-break finishing, and putbacks all enter into that -- but if one is going to hold Bird-as-teammate against McHale in other ways, one should also grant that McHale's volume is held down by the same awesome teammate competition. Actually, I shouldn't include putbacks; Dwight gets offensive rebounds at an even higher rate than McHale did.


The per 36 numbers don't mean much to me. McHale played 31 MPG, Howard 36 MPG. That 5 minutes is pretty big. 5 MPG translates to 410 minutes over 82 games which is 8.5 full games.

If I'm right about those double teams, this also suggests that McHale's offensive rebounding had a higher degree of difficulty than Dwight's. I've also written at length before that the defensive rebounding stats are skewed by role, specifically that McHale's role was as third-option rebounder, getting out on the break while the top two options handled the matter -- especially when he was playing perimeter defense, as he often did. Still, to the eye test, Howard has superb hops, great strength, and fine rebounding judgment, so while I'd argue that the magnitude of the rebounding gap is overstated, they're a lot closer in that regard than the numbers seem to suggest.


Dwight still has the offensive rebounding advantage. His Oreb% is 12.2% compared to Mchale's 9.2%. Howard's worst Oreb% year was beaten by McHale once in his career. I disagree with you on the Oreb point because they were easier to gather in McHale's era. There were 26.5% more Oreb in 1987 than in 2011. If you adjust for that. Howard would have a 15.9 Oreb% in 1987 and 5.1 Oreb's. Of course Howard crushes him in Defensive Rebounds (29.2% to 16.9%). Howard's worst defensive rebounding year beats McHale's best.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#62 » by drza » Wed Sep 7, 2011 6:20 pm

colts18 wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:When you look at raw volume, McHale per 36 minutes scored a little more than Dwight, getting a few more FGA, a few fewer FTA, but being a lot close than that in FT makes. I concede that pace, fast-break finishing, and putbacks all enter into that -- but if one is going to hold Bird-as-teammate against McHale in other ways, one should also grant that McHale's volume is held down by the same awesome teammate competition. Actually, I shouldn't include putbacks; Dwight gets offensive rebounds at an even higher rate than McHale did.


The per 36 numbers don't mean much to me. McHale played 31 MPG, Howard 36 MPG. That 5 minutes is pretty big. 5 MPG translates to 410 minutes over 82 games which is 8.5 full games.


To be fair, in Mchale's 4-year peak he averaged 37.3 mpg (higher than any 4-year stretch for Dwight to date) with a max of 39.4 min/game played (higher than any 1 season for Dwight) while maintaining those same per-minute averages. This isn't a case of extrapolating a low minute player out to big minutes, it's a case of someone having proven they can play big minutes at the very rate that Fencer was talking about. Which tends to, at least in my view, buy Mchale the benefit of the doubt that it was his role, and not his ability, that limited his production.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#63 » by ElGee » Wed Sep 7, 2011 6:44 pm

Usually a big proponent of Kevin Johnson, but surprised to see him being argued over peak Chris Paul. 1994 WCSF G7 was on nbatv last week, and I broke down the game. Summary below the quoted text:

1st Quarter: KJ fairly idle on the outside on the first few trips. Then he gets around a high screen and misses an open 20 footer. Barkley is drawing double teams (Ocs). KJ with a nice drive in delayed transition to score Phoenix's first FG 3:30 into game. Robert Horry is just raining 3-pointers to start.

KJ went at Smith a few trips later, but was totally bogged up by him. He finally gave it up after losing his dribble near the paint. Houston is running and gets a layup off a miss because of it (nice outlet by Smith to Max).

KJ misses an open OC by Barkley's double from 17. Hakeem with a ridiculous 80-foot outlet off the miss and Max beats KJ down the floor (mistake by Johnson). A few trips later, KJ and Barkley run a 2-man game and leads to a Barkley bucket.

Barkley strips Horry after it looks like a blow by. This is interesting, because it's exactly what Barkley did in the 86 Philly game they replayed earlier in the week. Yes, I'd say Charles Barkley had good hands on defense!

KJ uses a little screen to a step on Smith but misses the runner near the rim. Barkley is nursing some small injury and not moving well at all (pulled groin). Later in the Q, KJ around a Chuck screen and fouled going to the rim. Houston running again with a great outlet to Elie for a 3-point play. Hakeem is all over the place on defense.

KJ with a sweet pullup right over Cassell to start 2nd. Hakeem leaves the game with Hou +12 (37-25), Barkley and KJ on the court for Pho. Another Barkley OC sets up a missed 3. Thorpe goes to work for Hou and misses a jump hook. KJ attacks Cassell and scores on a crazy spin. Cassell scores off a curl pick from 18. Barkley OC sets up a Klein airball. Dream back in.

Barkley doubled and an OC on a layup to Ceballos. KJ pullup misses over Cassell. They continue to double Barkley but can't always find an open look off the pass. KJ OC sets up a Barkley 3 on a delayed transition drive and kick. KJ (OC) drive and kick sets up missed open Aigne 3. Other end, KJ falls alseep and is backdoored for a layup by Cassell. Houston running some more (Max is too fast for Majerle.)

KJ isoed on Cassell and gets by him...only to be inhaled by Hakeem. Then Cassell blows right by KJ in transition for a layup. 47-31. KJ with a sick blow by of Cassell on a cross for an and-1 (delayed transition). Pho going small lineup with Green-Barkley-Majerle-Ainge-KJ. Barkley double (OC) finally leads to an Ainge 3 hit. Hakeem going to work against Green though (2 straight scores). Barkley again double (OC) to Ainge for 3 against the clock. 51-40. Barkley hits a delated tran 3 to cut it to 8. KJ doesn't recover off a Dream double (OC) and Cassell gets an open layup. Chuck hits a crazy high fade over Horry. Cassell airball over KJ from 12 and Chuck with an amazing 70-foot outlet to Majerle for a layup. 53-47 at half.

Dream fades over Klein to start 3rd. KJ off a screen is blocked by Kenny Smith leading to a runout and open Max 3 (miss, Oreb). Horry backdoors Chuck for a layup on the inbounds! KJ drive and dish (OC) to Majerle for made 3. Hakeem scores against a double. Barkley OC to KJ who misses 18-footer. Hakeem doubled (OC) to Smith missed 3. Barkley doubled (OC) to Klein misses open foul line J.

Then Hakeem just shows off. He literally dribbles back to the 3-point line on Klein on a clear out and gives him a nasty dream shake, finishing with a hook. Then he's triple teams and still scores. Hakeem doubled (OC) to Max for 3. Barkley doubled out of TO for an OC layup to KJ. He then misses a fade on the baseline over Thorpe.

KJ hits a 19-footer off an Ainge OC. Smith drills a jumper over KJ (who sort of gave him the look by sagging off). KJ a ruthless drive in delayed tran and is fouled (3rd on Dream). Pho going with that small lineup a lot. 72-68. Hakeem doubled (OC) to Cassell for 3. KJ drive and sets up Green (OC) make. Barkley scores off a scramble/steal to cut it to 1, 77-76. Elie misses a drive on KJ. Cassell drives on KJ to set up Horry (OC) for 3. Big Shot Bob. 80-76 as Barkley dribbles out clock to end period.

Barkley goes to work on Horry to start 4th with a score. KJ draws a foul on Sam. Dream fouled by Green on a move, called on the floor. KJ hits a nasty stepback over Cassell after Cassell scored on an o-reb near KJ. Dream scores against Green in single coverage. KJ misses pullup over Sam next trip. Hakeem with a fade against Green (30) to put Hou up 90-80.

KJ drive around screen and dish (OC) to Ainge miss 3. KJ then drives off O-REb and scores at rim nicely. Pho has gone with this lineup for basically the whole second half! Chuck fouled in backcourt in tran. Barkley OC sets up Green missed 3 on double. Cassell hits the key shot of the game against the clock – a 3 after another possession of totally wasting the clock.

KJ isos on Sam and drives right, is fouled. He goes by him again for an OC layup to Green. 93-87. KJ holding his arm now. Out of TO, Dream scores deep on Green. KJ drive left and sets up Ainge for 3 (OC). KJ dribbling a lot next time down, finally drive and kick to Green (OC) from 19 against clock (miss). KJ misses an open 17-footer around a pick. KJ draws a foul splitting the D – makes both Fts. Dream with an answer dunk around Green (he traveled). KJ misses a pullup 3 on the other end. Chuck draws an Horry foul on upfake (makes both). 99-94 final minute. Barkley misses a desperation 3 down 7 to end it.


Summary:
Barkley 12 Opportunities Created (OC) 5 fouls drawn (FD)
KJ 8 OC 4 FD 1 helped jumper, 1 helped layup
Hakeem 6 OC 3 FD

KJ was relatively idle for much of the early parts. Barkley had everything run through him in the post. Johnson did some damage in transition or delayed transition, but other than a 2-man game he ran with Chuck a few times, KJ rubbed off a few screens but otherwise had little to do with the offense.

As the game progressed, especially in the 4th quarter, KJ ramped up his aggression, when he had 4 of his OC and went hard to the basket frequently. He started shooting more quickly/frequently too (some bad shots). His defense wasn't great throughout the game, as he had two notable errors/breakdowns.

Phoenix finished at 100.9 Ortg in this game, well off its average (112 ORtg, 1st in NBA). How much of that had to do with Barkley's lack of mobility from the groin? He certainly didn't look entirely right. KJ had 25 and 11 (many perfunctory assists) on 50% TS, Barkley 24 and 15 on 57% TS. The key to the game, arguably, was the noticeable difference between Pho in 93 and 94...namely no agile Oliver Miller and Richard Dumas, so they played the same small lineup the whole second half to keep up with Houston's speed and, presumably, to space the floor on offense. Only Ainge really came through (5-10 3's) and Green was hung out to dry against Olajuwon.

--

This is one game, but I find it instructive because it reflects my impression of Johnson, which is that he's a really good offensive player but he's more of a borderline QB-ing PG. He can carry the load, create, drive and dish, etc. but that wasn't his MO the whole game. Sometimes, he just played 1-on-1 ball, and he did it quite well. But he's not quite Chris Paul.

Ah, but he played with someone like Barkley, you say. Sure, that's a fair point. But when have we heavily rewarded players for what might have been? (Nash in Dallas with Dirk, for eg) And in this game, Barkley was clearly hobbled with a groin and KJ really didn't carry more of the load. He tried to make a few moves around Smith/Cassell, but a number of occasions was bottled off or became stuck by picking up his dribble.

All this begs the question, what happened in games KJ played without Chuck?

There were only 4 in 1994, and he averaged 19.0 pts (56% TS) and just 6.8 apg to 4.3 TOV. The average DRtg of those 4 teams was 107.6, and Pho posted a 113.4 ORtg.

If we expand that to the 93-95 period, KJ played 13 games without Barkley, and he averaged 18.5 pts (53.6% TS) 7.8 apg 3.6 TOV. In those 13 games, Phoenix's estimated ORtg was 109.5, but their average opp DRtg was 108.4 (+1.1). This was a team in those 3 years that otherwise went +5.3, +5.4 and +6.2 in relative ORtg.

(Btw, KJ's lineups in those games were Miller-Green-Ceballos-Majerle with Elliot Perry making an appearance. Klein, Manning, Person and Tisdale all play in 95.)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#64 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Sep 7, 2011 7:19 pm

SDChargers#1 wrote:Im curious what peoples reasoning is for taking Pierce over Kidd. Kidd was definitely the better player when they were both in their prime.


If you mean at the same time, when Kidd's team was better than Pierce's team in the ECF, I'd say:

* Kidd was more mature as a player then.
* Kidd had better teammates.

Also, while Pierce is declining with age too, I think on the whole his longevity arc is better.

Pierce has never had intangibles as bad as Kidd had his first Dallas go-round.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#65 » by colts18 » Wed Sep 7, 2011 7:23 pm

ElGee wrote:Usually a big proponent of Kevin Johnson, but surprised to see him being argued over peak Chris Paul. 1994 WCSF G7 was on nbatv last week, and I broke down the game. Summary below the quoted text:

1st Quarter: KJ fairly idle on the outside on the first few trips. Then he gets around a high screen and misses an open 20 footer. Barkley is drawing double teams (Ocs). KJ with a nice drive in delayed transition to score Phoenix's first FG 3:30 into game. Robert Horry is just raining 3-pointers to start.

KJ went at Smith a few trips later, but was totally bogged up by him. He finally gave it up after losing his dribble near the paint. Houston is running and gets a layup off a miss because of it (nice outlet by Smith to Max).

KJ misses an open OC by Barkley's double from 17. Hakeem with a ridiculous 80-foot outlet off the miss and Max beats KJ down the floor (mistake by Johnson). A few trips later, KJ and Barkley run a 2-man game and leads to a Barkley bucket.

Barkley strips Horry after it looks like a blow by. This is interesting, because it's exactly what Barkley did in the 86 Philly game they replayed earlier in the week. Yes, I'd say Charles Barkley had good hands on defense!

KJ uses a little screen to a step on Smith but misses the runner near the rim. Barkley is nursing some small injury and not moving well at all (pulled groin). Later in the Q, KJ around a Chuck screen and fouled going to the rim. Houston running again with a great outlet to Elie for a 3-point play. Hakeem is all over the place on defense.

KJ with a sweet pullup right over Cassell to start 2nd. Hakeem leaves the game with Hou +12 (37-25), Barkley and KJ on the court for Pho. Another Barkley OC sets up a missed 3. Thorpe goes to work for Hou and misses a jump hook. KJ attacks Cassell and scores on a crazy spin. Cassell scores off a curl pick from 18. Barkley OC sets up a Klein airball. Dream back in.

Barkley doubled and an OC on a layup to Ceballos. KJ pullup misses over Cassell. They continue to double Barkley but can't always find an open look off the pass. KJ OC sets up a Barkley 3 on a delayed transition drive and kick. KJ (OC) drive and kick sets up missed open Aigne 3. Other end, KJ falls alseep and is backdoored for a layup by Cassell. Houston running some more (Max is too fast for Majerle.)

KJ isoed on Cassell and gets by him...only to be inhaled by Hakeem. Then Cassell blows right by KJ in transition for a layup. 47-31. KJ with a sick blow by of Cassell on a cross for an and-1 (delayed transition). Pho going small lineup with Green-Barkley-Majerle-Ainge-KJ. Barkley double (OC) finally leads to an Ainge 3 hit. Hakeem going to work against Green though (2 straight scores). Barkley again double (OC) to Ainge for 3 against the clock. 51-40. Barkley hits a delated tran 3 to cut it to 8. KJ doesn't recover off a Dream double (OC) and Cassell gets an open layup. Chuck hits a crazy high fade over Horry. Cassell airball over KJ from 12 and Chuck with an amazing 70-foot outlet to Majerle for a layup. 53-47 at half.

Dream fades over Klein to start 3rd. KJ off a screen is blocked by Kenny Smith leading to a runout and open Max 3 (miss, Oreb). Horry backdoors Chuck for a layup on the inbounds! KJ drive and dish (OC) to Majerle for made 3. Hakeem scores against a double. Barkley OC to KJ who misses 18-footer. Hakeem doubled (OC) to Smith missed 3. Barkley doubled (OC) to Klein misses open foul line J.

Then Hakeem just shows off. He literally dribbles back to the 3-point line on Klein on a clear out and gives him a nasty dream shake, finishing with a hook. Then he's triple teams and still scores. Hakeem doubled (OC) to Max for 3. Barkley doubled out of TO for an OC layup to KJ. He then misses a fade on the baseline over Thorpe.

KJ hits a 19-footer off an Ainge OC. Smith drills a jumper over KJ (who sort of gave him the look by sagging off). KJ a ruthless drive in delayed tran and is fouled (3rd on Dream). Pho going with that small lineup a lot. 72-68. Hakeem doubled (OC) to Cassell for 3. KJ drive and sets up Green (OC) make. Barkley scores off a scramble/steal to cut it to 1, 77-76. Elie misses a drive on KJ. Cassell drives on KJ to set up Horry (OC) for 3. Big Shot Bob. 80-76 as Barkley dribbles out clock to end period.

Barkley goes to work on Horry to start 4th with a score. KJ draws a foul on Sam. Dream fouled by Green on a move, called on the floor. KJ hits a nasty stepback over Cassell after Cassell scored on an o-reb near KJ. Dream scores against Green in single coverage. KJ misses pullup over Sam next trip. Hakeem with a fade against Green (30) to put Hou up 90-80.

KJ drive around screen and dish (OC) to Ainge miss 3. KJ then drives off O-REb and scores at rim nicely. Pho has gone with this lineup for basically the whole second half! Chuck fouled in backcourt in tran. Barkley OC sets up Green missed 3 on double. Cassell hits the key shot of the game against the clock – a 3 after another possession of totally wasting the clock.

KJ isos on Sam and drives right, is fouled. He goes by him again for an OC layup to Green. 93-87. KJ holding his arm now. Out of TO, Dream scores deep on Green. KJ drive left and sets up Ainge for 3 (OC). KJ dribbling a lot next time down, finally drive and kick to Green (OC) from 19 against clock (miss). KJ misses an open 17-footer around a pick. KJ draws a foul splitting the D – makes both Fts. Dream with an answer dunk around Green (he traveled). KJ misses a pullup 3 on the other end. Chuck draws an Horry foul on upfake (makes both). 99-94 final minute. Barkley misses a desperation 3 down 7 to end it.


Summary:
Barkley 12 Opportunities Created (OC) 5 fouls drawn (FD)
KJ 8 OC 4 FD 1 helped jumper, 1 helped layup
Hakeem 6 OC 3 FD

KJ was relatively idle for much of the early parts. Barkley had everything run through him in the post. Johnson did some damage in transition or delayed transition, but other than a 2-man game he ran with Chuck a few times, KJ rubbed off a few screens but otherwise had little to do with the offense.

As the game progressed, especially in the 4th quarter, KJ ramped up his aggression, when he had 4 of his OC and went hard to the basket frequently. He started shooting more quickly/frequently too (some bad shots). His defense wasn't great throughout the game, as he had two notable errors/breakdowns.

Phoenix finished at 100.9 Ortg in this game, well off its average (112 ORtg, 1st in NBA). How much of that had to do with Barkley's lack of mobility from the groin? He certainly didn't look entirely right. KJ had 25 and 11 (many perfunctory assists) on 50% TS, Barkley 24 and 15 on 57% TS. The key to the game, arguably, was the noticeable difference between Pho in 93 and 94...namely no agile Oliver Miller and Richard Dumas, so they played the same small lineup the whole second half to keep up with Houston's speed and, presumably, to space the floor on offense. Only Ainge really came through (5-10 3's) and Green was hung out to dry against Olajuwon.

--

This is one game, but I find it instructive because it reflects my impression of Johnson, which is that he's a really good offensive player but he's more of a borderline QB-ing PG. He can carry the load, create, drive and dish, etc. but that wasn't his MO the whole game. Sometimes, he just played 1-on-1 ball, and he did it quite well. But he's not quite Chris Paul.

Ah, but he played with someone like Barkley, you say. Sure, that's a fair point. But when have we heavily rewarded players for what might have been? (Nash in Dallas with Dirk, for eg) And in this game, Barkley was clearly hobbled with a groin and KJ really didn't carry more of the load. He tried to make a few moves around Smith/Cassell, but a number of occasions was bottled off or became stuck by picking up his dribble.

All this begs the question, what happened in games KJ played without Chuck?

There were only 4 in 1994, and he averaged 19.0 pts (56% TS) and just 6.8 apg to 4.3 TOV. The average DRtg of those 4 teams was 107.6, and Pho posted a 113.4 ORtg.

If we expand that to the 93-95 period, KJ played 13 games without Barkley, and he averaged 18.5 pts (53.6% TS) 7.8 apg 3.6 TOV. In those 13 games, Phoenix's estimated ORtg was 109.5, but their average opp DRtg was 108.4 (+1.1). This was a team in those 3 years that otherwise went +5.3, +5.4 and +6.2 in relative ORtg.

(Btw, KJ's lineups in those games were Miller-Green-Ceballos-Majerle with Elliot Perry making an appearance. Klein, Manning, Person and Tisdale all play in 95.)

The problem with this analysis is that Kevin Johnson already had 4 20-10 seasons before barkley and a 20-9 season after him
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#66 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Sep 7, 2011 7:30 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:Just on the Howard vs McHale debate, it's noteable to me that McHale doesn't have a great longevity advantage. Giving McHale the 7 years Howard has had takes him through '88 and both guys take a handful of years to start their prime. Is his 89-91 enough to put McHale over Howard, when Howard's first 7 years are so much better? I'm going to say no to that fairly easily


I'm disputing that Howard's years really were that much better.

I'm also disputing your math; McHale has played >50% longer than Howard has, counting by minutes.

As for Cousy's efficiency -- he had MANY more assists than almost anybody else in the league, and generally had solid efficiency when compared to those who came close to him in assists. What's more, his assists surely greatly understate his offensive contribution, both because of the tight restrictions on what an assist was in those days, and because the guy who leads the break may well not make the last pass, depending on what the defense chooses to do.

I don't know to what extent there was a "Well, if the PG is shooting this must be one of the plays that didn't work so well" factor in the offensive systems of those days.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#67 » by ElGee » Wed Sep 7, 2011 8:11 pm

colts18 wrote:The problem with this analysis is that Kevin Johnson already had 4 20-10 seasons before barkley and a 20-9 season after him


Since I spent about 4 of the 1500 words in the post on pts/ast stats, perhaps you may want to rethink what "this analysis" is about. ;)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#68 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Sep 7, 2011 8:23 pm

Laimbeer wrote:The Cousy thing has become ridiculous. He didn't play with peach baskets. He played alongside the guy who's number two on our list. People need to watch some games or you tube clips of him competing quite nicely with guys like Jerry West.

He owned his position, 13 all-stars in a row, 12 first teams in a row, at least a Pippen role on six champions. He's 20-25 spots late. If we really believe his era makes that much difference, we ought to give him the Mikan treatment and remove him from consideration. But putting him in a conversation with Kevin Johnson is a joke.


When the standard is something like "guys who were impactful in a positive way," Cousy could easily go top 20.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#69 » by ElGee » Wed Sep 7, 2011 9:16 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:The Cousy thing has become ridiculous. He didn't play with peach baskets. He played alongside the guy who's number two on our list. People need to watch some games or you tube clips of him competing quite nicely with guys like Jerry West.

He owned his position, 13 all-stars in a row, 12 first teams in a row, at least a Pippen role on six champions. He's 20-25 spots late. If we really believe his era makes that much difference, we ought to give him the Mikan treatment and remove him from consideration. But putting him in a conversation with Kevin Johnson is a joke.


When the standard is something like "guys who were impactful in a positive way," Cousy could easily go top 20.


The issue with Cousy is that he's overrated. Does that seem improbably to you?

When you say "20-25 spots late," what do you mean? Do YOU have Cousy as the 25th-best player ever? Furthermore, what does "at least a Pippen role on six champions" mean? You think Cousy has 6 seasons from 1957 to 1963 that are as good as 6 Pippen seasons from 91-98? Really?

Here are Boston's estimated offensive rankings (using the simple method) from 56-65:

56 2.1 2nd relative to league avg. of 8 teams
57 -0.4 5th
58 -0.9 t-5th
59 -0.8 5th
60 -0.1 5th
61 -4.0 8th
62 -1.7 7th of 9 (expansion Bulls were last, Sam Jones' role increases)
63 -3.4 9th
64 -4.3 9th (Cousy leaves, Russell and Jones only Celtics over 42%)
65 -3.2 8th

We know the Celtics liked to run and gun. Literally - they had this completely illogical idea about tiring teams out by taking bad shots. It's some "punt on 4th-and-1" logic to me. Cousy shoots a bunch as the point but never shoots over 40%. Ever. His TS% is above league average once from 57-63 (+0.3% in 1957). In 1961, at 32, he makes all-nba 1st team posts his best WS/48 in the PS of the Russell era, averages 18 and 8...but shoots -3.3% below league average in TS and leads the worst offense in the league by a lot (at least based on TS%). So something isn't right with the narrative: it's clearly not a case of Cousy's reputation + stats = awesome offensive player.

Now, what changed from 1960 to 1961? Other than Bill Sharman's decline (his last year) and Cousy's ridiculously bad shooting, Russell has arguably his worst shooting/offensive season of his prime. That's about all I can tell. Hey, maybe when the PG jacks up 18 shots a game and his college mate Tommy Gunner never met a shot he didn't like, the result isn't the greatest offense in the world. *shrug*

Of course, in 67, Boston drops all the gunners, Russ takes over as coach and Boston has the 4th-best offense in the league (+1.6). Probably not a coincidence...
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#70 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Sep 7, 2011 9:22 pm

I don't put that much stock in the Celtics surviving Cousy's departure, because that's when they added Havlicek, and he's already on our list.

Also, the Celtics DID eventually become more vulnerable as Russell, Heinsohn, and Sam Jones aged. They just famously sucked it up/got lucky in the postseason.

And Auerbach was nowhere as an Xs and Os coach. He just was so awesome in other respects that this is rightly overlooked. He prided himself on how simplistic his schemes were.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#71 » by Lever2Beaver » Wed Sep 7, 2011 9:38 pm

Here's how you know Cousy's efficiency doesn't mean a thing
no one cared then and it never cost them as ring
My throat is getting soar from yelling the same refrain
Stop citing phony numbers, the point is to win the game
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#72 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Sep 7, 2011 9:43 pm

colts18 wrote:The per 36 numbers don't mean much to me. McHale played 31 MPG, Howard 36 MPG. That 5 minutes is pretty big. 5 MPG translates to 410 minutes over 82 games which is 8.5 full games.


And McHale played many more seasons than Howard has so far, working out to many more minutes.

Maybe when Howard's career is over he'll belong above McHale on the list, but not yet.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#73 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Sep 7, 2011 9:47 pm

Robert Parish's offense, if my memory is accurate, really did come in part from his teammates.

He wasn't at the Charles Oakley extreme, deadly on jumpers but only when there was no defender in the same ZIP code; his baseline jumpers arced gorgeously high precisely to get over defenders. He also was a good mobile-big-man garbage finisher. But he was rarely the subject of defensive focus the way some elite bigs were.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#74 » by fatal9 » Wed Sep 7, 2011 9:51 pm

Vote: McHale
Nominate: Mourning


Missed last vote, wasn't around for long weekend. Kind of disappointed to see Gilmore get voted in. I had him about 30 spots away from here...
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#75 » by Lever2Beaver » Wed Sep 7, 2011 9:52 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:I've voted Pierce for 4-5 threads


The question this confession brings if I may ask why
Is have you lost, never had or are you out of your mind
Pierce doesn't belong near the fifty
Dumars was better, so were Sam, Hal and Sidney
And Willis and Cowens and Unseld and Hayes
The players you ignore leave me amazed
On planet is guy who was never elite
belong above a guy who infused the NBA with the street
Not to mention for a decade the best at his position
something Pierce never achieved once, are you even listening?
An MVP in '57, of course I'm talking of the Cooz
I'll take him you take Pierce and I'll never lose
There is not a single reason anyone could cite
that would make have Paul above Bob even a little alright

Go back to the books and put down the modern era glasses
some of you guys here are starting to sound like jack-asses.

P.S. - It should be noted, I suppose - for those who don't know - everything that I rhyme is lighthearted
I don't mean to offend - and I will amend - any language that has a fight started
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#76 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 7, 2011 10:50 pm

Laimbeer wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Yes he played next to the #2 guy on the list, which is why he won titles, which is why he gets overrated.

Re: competing nicely with West. The danger of eyeballing it. The gap between the efficiency in these two was extreme, but people have never been good at getting a reasonable sense of efficiency with just their eyes which is exactly why Cousy got too much credit.


So with one measure, efficiency, we disqualify eyewitness accounts and expert opinion, and it reveals some absolute and previously undiscovered truth? It shows beyond dispute that all of his teammates, opponents, and media were just imagining his greatness?


Dude, it's pretty frustrating when you paint it like I'm pointing out one isolated fact and totally throwing everything else out when the conversation of Cousy has been quite detailed on these boards for years.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#77 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 7, 2011 10:52 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:I don't put that much stock in the Celtics surviving Cousy's departure, because that's when they added Havlicek, and he's already on our list.


No see this is the key thing: The Celtics' offense sucked before and after Cousy retired. They didn't win titles because they miraculously found a new offensive star, they won titles because their defense was so good, they didn't need their offensive players to be effective.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#78 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Sep 7, 2011 11:55 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:I don't put that much stock in the Celtics surviving Cousy's departure, because that's when they added Havlicek, and he's already on our list.


No see this is the key thing: The Celtics' offense sucked before and after Cousy retired. They didn't win titles because they miraculously found a new offensive star, they won titles because their defense was so good, they didn't need their offensive players to be effective.


Russell famously said that he'd take a blow when needed on offense, but never ever on defense. I suspect the same was true of some of the other Celtics.

The Celtics' offense consisted of 7 plays, which the rest of the league all knew; when Auerbach led a barnstorming tour one offseason, Pettit suggested that the team just use the Celtics plays, since everybody else already knew them cold.

We don't have statistics to differentiate, for example, fast-break vs. half-court scoring, or whether there were a lot of "passes off the glass" on breaks leading to what passed for putbacks in those days. But we do know that Cousy was extremely well-regarded, and that contemporary accounts report the Celtics having an excellent fast break. So there's pretty good evidence that he made a powerful offensive contribution.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#79 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Sep 8, 2011 12:06 am

Lever2Beaver wrote:
Dr Mufasa wrote:I've voted Pierce for 4-5 threads


The question this confession brings if I may ask why
Is have you lost, never had or are you out of your mind
Pierce doesn't belong near the fifty
Dumars was better, so were Sam, Hal and Sidney
And Willis and Cowens and Unseld and Hayes
The players you ignore leave me amazed
On planet is guy who was never elite
belong above a guy who infused the NBA with the street
Not to mention for a decade the best at his position
something Pierce never achieved once, are you even listening?
An MVP in '57, of course I'm talking of the Cooz
I'll take him you take Pierce and I'll never lose
There is not a single reason anyone could cite
that would make have Paul above Bob even a little alright

Go back to the books and put down the modern era glasses
some of you guys here are starting to sound like jack-asses.

P.S. - It should be noted, I suppose - for those who don't know - everything that I rhyme is lighthearted
I don't mean to offend - and I will amend - any language that has a fight started


Pierce is simply better than Dumars, Greer and Jones to me. It's in the stats and it's in his game. He has the most offensive skill and uses his body the best of the 3. Defensively he is not as good as Dumars, but Dumars is the weakest offensive player of the 4, mind you. I can buy the argument prime Moncrief is => Pierce, but his prime lasts half as long.

What happened with Pierce is he played in the most high profile SG boom ever. With Kobe, Tmac, Iverson, Vince it's hard to distinguish yourself as a superstar. I don't really care. What I see is a player who should be considered a <===> to Clyde Drexler, a player always slotted top 35, by almost any measurement I can think of. Extremely similar careers in many ways. Clyde just had the media come out for him one year, partly because being the best guy on a 60 W team who had made the Finals 2 years before looked really good, but also because the media was looking for a Magic to Jordan's Bird, with Barkley and Hakeem being on the outs with their teams and Malone being boring, they turned to Drexler. I can't think of an argument that says Drexler should be on anything but the same tier as Pierce. Frankly, I have Pierce a spot ahead. He's a better individual scorer and spaces the floor more, so I consider him the better halfcourt offensive player. Clyde is a better transition player, but I consider halfcourt play more valuable than transition play.

I think the Paul Pierce of this generation is Deron Williams. Caught in the PG boom, Paul and Rose getting more hype and having more exciting years, Deron meanwhile uses his size and skill which isn't as flashy as speed. I don't know if he'll ever get 'recognition' past top 7 or 8 in the league, but if he keeps up his prime level for 12 seasons, I won't really care, he'll be good for top 40 or 50 just because he's better than the guys below him
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #35 

Post#80 » by penbeast0 » Thu Sep 8, 2011 12:37 am

At the moment, the nominations are widely split but I like most if not all of the nominees and could be convinced to vote for any of them here . . . . except for the one who has the most support, Iverson. Strange that.
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