Nash vs Rose: Worst MVP in NBA history?

[rrravenred]

Aaron McKie and Eric Snow after Ratliff, actually.

But there's your chicken and egg situation with AI. What other talent would work well with him? Would Deng or Boozer have gotten enough shots to be effective with young AI takin' names, layin' bricks and drawin' fouls?[1] Brown put all his eggs in the basket marked "6-ft volume shooter, strong defenders and rebounders", and tried to make it work.

Once again, however, there's a team built on strong defense and middling offense, although I'd argue the east was a lot weaker during that period than last year.



[1] Older, Denver AI is a different matter. He wasn't coming into a team he owned, or a coach whose job depended on keeping him happy. He was also a fair bit more mature by that stage, though not without his demons.

[grimballer]

you know youre in trouble when eric snow or ratliff are your main scoring options.

sure you can make an arguemnt that ai woundnt work well with boozer n deng, but they can still somewhat create their own shots, so when ais having trouble scoring they would be helpful.

on the other hand, how would rose do with 01 sixers? what could he possibly do to make that team better or more efficient on offense?

would they even make the playoffs with rose?

[UDRIH14]

i think nashs 06 mvp couldve gone to shaq or duncan had they played 95% of the regular season....

the same could be said for KGs 04 mvp had those 2 players also played 95% of the regular season, even though missing games the records for the 3 teams was only 2-3 games difference in team records, but the voters will probably still give it to KG....

if you want worst mvp, check out malones 2nd mvp, which shouldve been duncans...

[grimballer]

i think nashs 06 mvp couldve gone to shaq or duncan had they played 95% of the regular season....

the same could be said for KGs 04 mvp had those 2 players also played 95% of the regular season, even though missing games the records for the 3 teams was only 2-3 games difference in team records, but the voters will probably still give it to KG....

if you want worst mvp, check out malones 2nd mvp, which shouldve been duncans...

malone ave 24/9 on 49%, duncan ave 22/11 on 49%

same record

malone had better ws n per

malone was clearly more valuable.

[Sebastian]

The Bulls won with both offense and defense last season. You can't discredit Rose just because his teammates were better at defense than offense.

And if you want to harp on the defense thing, give him credit for being, statistically, far and away the best defender at his position last year (according to Synergy Sports). Exactly how much D did Dirk and Durant play last season?

Who was discrediting Rose? He had a good season last year. However, I think I'm within my rights to assess the foundations of the Bulls success last year as being more centred around their very good defence rather than their slightly above average offence. You want to disagree, feel free.

Rose as individual defensive maven? Isn't this having your cake and eating it too? Isn't it possible that Rose's good PPP numbers might have something to do with the defensive talent around him?

Absolutely ridiculous to state that either Nash or Rose was the worst MVP ever.

Who's your pick then?

Off the top of my head, Cowens, Cousy and Unseld are a tier above (or below) the rest and I quite frankly don't see how it's even arguable.

Isn't it possible that Rose's good PPP numbers might have something to do with the defensive talent around him?

Seems a lot less possible when you consider he was less reliant on help D than any other PG except Billups and Harris and gave up an absolutely ridiculous .64 PPP on ISOLATION plays.

If you want to say defense was more instrumental to the Bulls's success than what Rose did on offense, you have to give him his fair share of credit for that, boosting his worth as an MVP. And you also have to use defense to either elevate or diminish the MVP arguments for everyone else (I.e., ++ for Howard, + for LeBron, - for Dirk, - for Durant).

As has been said before, last season was odd in that no one really stood out in the MVP race. There was no Jordan, no prime Shaq or Hakeem who cleaved himself from the rest of the pack. Relative to his competition, Rose was not a bad pick. Howard would have been my choice, but awkward offensive big men on under-achieving 50 win teams just don't win MVPs.

[Sebastian]

i think nashs 06 mvp couldve gone to shaq or duncan had they played 95% of the regular season....

the same could be said for KGs 04 mvp had those 2 players also played 95% of the regular season, even though missing games the records for the 3 teams was only 2-3 games difference in team records, but the voters will probably still give it to KG....

if you want worst mvp, check out malones 2nd mvp, which shouldve been duncans...

malone ave 24/9 on 49%, duncan ave 22/11 on 49%

same record

malone had better ws n per

malone was clearly more valuable.

Duncan was all-world defensively, which Malone was not. That has to be considered as well.

[Rapcity_11]

Seems a lot less possible when you consider he was less reliant on help D than any other PG except Billups and Harris and gave up an absolutely ridiculous .64 PPP on ISOLATION plays.

How do you come up this?

and gave up an absolutely ridiculous .64 PPP on ISOLATION plays.

Isolation plays are still heavily influenced by coaching/schemes/teammates.

[Ice Man]

Not a good thread question. It's not close. Rose was the easily worst MVP pick ever. Nash was arguably the best ever.

Although I do love the little lad, he'll be a great backup PG in the NBA when he's 41 years old.

[magicman1978]

The question has two possible interpretations for me:

1. Is Nash or Rose the worst MVP choice in history
2. Is Nash or Rose the worst MVP when compared to other MVPs historically

My answer to #1 would be that neither Nash or Rose are the worst MVPs in history because there was not an obviously better choice for MVP in the years they were chosen. I would go with Cowens winning over Kareem in 73 being the worst.

My answer to #2 is also neither. Rose still has quite some time to build his legacy. The worst MVP ever I think was Wes Unseld.

[Sebastian]

Seems a lot less possible when you consider he was less reliant on help D than any other PG except Billups and Harris and gave up an absolutely ridiculous .64 PPP on ISOLATION plays.

How do you come up this?

The numbers come from Synergy Sports.

If you want to penalize Rose for playing in a good system with good defenders, you have to do the same to guys like Rondo. Other than big men, a good defensive player's impact can be largely negated in a bad system/surrounded by bad defenders.

[Rapcity_11]

The numbers come from Synergy Sports.

Sorry I meant the part where you said he was less reliant on help D than any other PG except Billups and Harris.

If you want to penalize Rose for playing in a good system with good defenders, you have to do the same to guys like Rondo. Other than big men, a good defensive player's impact can be largely negated in a bad system/surrounded by bad defenders.

I'm not penalizing Rose. It just needs to be pointed out that every defensive play is a team effort. Same goes for Rondo, etc.

[bastillon]

The question has two possible interpretations for me:

1. Is Nash or Rose the worst MVP choice in history
2. Is Nash or Rose the worst MVP when compared to other MVPs historically

My answer to #1 would be that neither Nash or Rose are the worst MVPs in history because there was not an obviously better choice for MVP in the years they were chosen. I would go with Cowens winning over Kareem in 73 being the worst.

My answer to #2 is also neither. Rose still has quite some time to build his legacy. The worst MVP ever I think was Wes Unseld.

as for 73, the problem was that Bucks struggled without Oscar, but did well without Kareem (6-0). that's probably why the voters were reluctant to give award to Kareem. also, Celtics overachieved in the RS against poor competition and went for astronomic 68 wins.

I would definitely go for Iverson over Duncan and Shaq in 2001. absolutely ludicrous choice.

[Bobbcats]

Seems a lot less possible when you consider he was less reliant on help D than any other PG except Billups and Harris and gave up an absolutely ridiculous .64 PPP on ISOLATION plays.

Not as meaningful as you seem to think. First thing is that isos rarely remain that way all the way to the rim. And PG isos are very rare so it's not such an important number to begin with. When they do occur they usually occur at the end of the shotclock as a desperation thing with a small shot of working anyways. I'd imagine more than any other team, the Bulls see a higher percentage of this kind of involuntary PG iso because of their ridiculous defense. Put other PG's on the bulls and their PPP on isolation plays would plummet too.

[grimballer]

i think nashs 06 mvp couldve gone to shaq or duncan had they played 95% of the regular season....

the same could be said for KGs 04 mvp had those 2 players also played 95% of the regular season, even though missing games the records for the 3 teams was only 2-3 games difference in team records, but the voters will probably still give it to KG....

if you want worst mvp, check out malones 2nd mvp, which shouldve been duncans...

malone ave 24/9 on 49%, duncan ave 22/11 on 49%

same record

malone had better ws n per

malone was clearly more valuable.

Duncan was all-world defensively, which Malone was not. That has to be considered as well.

malone was all nba 1st d team that year...

[Ryoga Hibiki]

malone was all nba 1st d team that year...

just for reputation

[grimballer]

malone was all nba 1st d team that year...

just for reputation

i like how you just throw that word around (reputation) as if you proved your point.

i could do the same thing n say duncans all nba 1st team n d team selection were "just based on hype".

but the reality is malone was selected by majority of coaches on nba 1st d team.

so rep or no rep

30 nba coaches opinion > your opinion

[Rapcity_11]

grimballer are you seriously trying to compare Malone and Duncan defensively?

[grimballer]

whether they are comparable on d is irrelevant.

whats relevant for the mvp discussion is

malone was all nba 1st team, just like duncan

malone was all nba d 1st team just like duncan.

the difference between the 2 was malones better stat production.

[Rapcity_11]

whether they are comparable on d is irrelevant.

whats relevant for the mvp discussion is

malone was all nba 1st team, just like duncan

malone was all nba d 1st team just like duncan.

the difference between the 2 was malones better stat production.

No, what matters is how good they actually were.

Whether or not they were comparable on D is entirely relevant.

[Sebastian]

Malone at that point in his career was not on Duncan's level defensively. This I clearly remember.