In your all time list: Wilt or Bird

[kasino]

thats a very defensive post
anyway according to team stats
when he was offensive minded as he was on the Warriors their offense improved but defense suffered although still above league average
in his 6 yea career with the Warriors(really 5 and 38 games) they averaged the 4 best offense in the league
year before arriving going from the 7th best offense to the 6th after his departure
overall being one of the best teams with him

[Doctor MJ]

thats a very defensive post
anyway according to team stats
when he was offensive minded as he was on the Warriors their offense improved but defense suffered although still above league average
in his 6 yea career with the Warriors(really 5 and 38 games) they averaged the 4 best offense in the league
year before arriving going from the 7th best offense to the 6th after his departure
overall being one of the best teams with him

I apologize for being so scathing. It's frustrating for me to see someone respond in the middle of the conversation without seeming to interact with the information provided by others at all. I should be more patient.

With the data you provide, it sounds to me like you are using PPG as a synonym for "best offense". This is incorrect. The best offense is the one scoring the most points per possession. For Wilt's era, estimates along these lines are difficult to come by, and unfortunately the most comprehensive site on it (by ElGee) is down right now.

Here's b-r's initial foray into possession estimate which then leads to a list of all-time great offenses and defense:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205

Note how the Celtics dominate among 1960s teams, but that if you look at PPG allowed, they don't actually even lead the league. This is because they played at a high pace. One has to adjust for pace before one can get a sense of how effective an offense or a defense truly was.

Suffice to say, when we look at Wilt, we don't see what most expect:

When Wilt joins the Warriors, the offense improves slightly, but the defense goes up considerably.
Over the next few years, the offense has some minor ups and downs, but the defense is a roller coaster. And wherever we see a big defensive shift in performance, there are articles from the period talking about the issues (or improvements).

[JordansBulls]

Last summer I rated him 13th. I haven't done a thorough re-evaluation since then.

That's kinda low for Wilt.

[semi-sentient]

I have Bird just above Shaq and Wilt at the moment. If Wilt is higher than Bird then it doesn't make any sense to not have Shaq higher as well, unless you give an extraordinary amount of weight to RS awards.

Wilt is still in my top 10 though and I'm surprised to see so many people now ranking him outside of that. It makes little to no sense given the in depth discussions we've had on this board.

[AdamTheGreek]

I have Larry above Wilt. Wilt athletically was way ahead of his time and is a main rules changer. With that said, Wilt underachieved in my eyes. Larry won titles while going through a very tough East. Bird really did make everyone around him better. The evidence doesn't mirror that thought with Wilt, IMO. Bird lived up to his full potential and that's why he's above Chamberlain for me.

[kasino]

thats a very defensive post
anyway according to team stats
when he was offensive minded as he was on the Warriors their offense improved but defense suffered although still above league average
in his 6 yea career with the Warriors(really 5 and 38 games) they averaged the 4 best offense in the league
year before arriving going from the 7th best offense to the 6th after his departure
overall being one of the best teams with him

I apologize for being so scathing. It's frustrating for me to see someone respond in the middle of the conversation without seeming to interact with the information provided by others at all. I should be more patient.

With the data you provide, it sounds to me like you are using PPG as a synonym for "best offense". This is incorrect. The best offense is the one scoring the most points per possession. For Wilt's era, estimates along these lines are difficult to come by, and unfortunately the most comprehensive site on it (by ElGee) is down right now.

Here's b-r's initial foray into possession estimate which then leads to a list of all-time great offenses and defense:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205

Note how the Celtics dominate among 1960s teams, but that if you look at PPG allowed, they don't actually even lead the league. This is because they played at a high pace. One has to adjust for pace before one can get a sense of how effective an offense or a defense truly was.

Suffice to say, when we look at Wilt, we don't see what most expect:

When Wilt joins the Warriors, the offense improves slightly, but the defense goes up considerably.
Over the next few years, the offense has some minor ups and downs, but the defense is a roller coaster. And wherever we see a big defensive shift in performance, there are articles from the period talking about the issues (or improvements).

yes look at PPG but I take into account differential from points gained to points allowed, definitely when considering defense
in a 8 team league the jump is massive, going from 7th to 4th in average is about moving from the 26th best offense to the 15th best in a 30 team league
Celtics during the 60's more often then not were either the 1st or 2nd in points allowed always leading in differential

[JordansBulls]

I have Bird just above Shaq and Wilt at the moment. If Wilt is higher than Bird then it doesn't make any sense to not have Shaq higher as well, unless you give an extraordinary amount of weight to RS awards.

Wilt is still in my top 10 though and I'm surprised to see so many people now ranking him outside of that. It makes little to no sense given the in depth discussions we've had on this board.

agreed