#1 Highest Peak of All Time (Jordan '91 wins)

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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#61 » by ThaRegul8r » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:36 am

DavidStern wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:
I think one useful thing though is for people to put aside preconceptions and attempt to evaluate each season objectively. Many people already have their minds made up and their intent is solely to switch everyone else to their way of thinking rather than actually having an open discussion about it.


:lol:
And that said guy who voted 2 hours after this thread started, before any discussion started, without any explanation.


ThaRegul8r wrote:My vote is for Wilt '66-67. I'll expound when I get back to my files.


Just what part of the above was unclear to you? I only happened to see that the first thread for the project had been posted, I was not on a computer, nor was I with my files where I have my data. That should be clear to any literate person. Since that time, I see that other people have already said most of what I was going to say, making it redundant.

And no explanation?

Funny, because I recall ronnymac2 saying this:

ronnymac2 wrote:I have a few suggestions to the participants.

1. Use the RPOY threads to inform yourself about how certain players played during their peak seasons.


And if people did that, it's not like I didn't participate myself in the Retro Player of the Year Project, right?

And it's not like I'm not on record as saying this, right, if anyone wanted to know what I had to say about it before I got back to where I could expound on it, right?

I've never said anything about this season before, so if I said my vote was for Wilt '66-67, no one would know why.

:rolleyes:

And when—in any project I've been a part of—have I ever attempted to "switch everyone else to my way of thinking?" Any time I ever post, I always just put stuff out there and let people make up their own damn minds. I haven't said anyone should vote any particular way—as I don't care, and I'm reading arguments being made.

So don't be so quick to laugh, chuckles, when your post doesn't even pass any kind of analysis.

Now if we can dispense with the inanities and get back to discussing basketball.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#62 » by mysticbb » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:17 pm

DavidStern wrote:And do you have any proof that Martin was better at defending Duncan than Collins?


Yeah, and as we all know Byron Scott was a complete idiot. :roll:

DavidStern wrote:Adjustment for strenght of the team, but not strength of the individual opponents. Really mysticbb, hold Ewing to 39 TS% and being focal point of the offense against so good defensively team like 1994 NYK isn't more impressive than domination on Martin and Collison frontourt?


No quite sure what you even trying to argue. For sure I just take the average team strength into account, because that is based on a boxscore metric. And then again, the Knicks are rated higher in 1994 than the Nets in 2003, which accounts for the difference in strength. The defensive aspect is taken into account as far as the boxscore allows that. If you think that Olajuwon has some sort of miracle impact on the defensive end, something Duncan can't have for sure, than by all means adjust that in a way you think it is appropiate. But believe me, you will have a hard time convincing people that Oljauwon's non-boxscore impact was a lot bigger than Duncan's.

DavidStern wrote:And BTW, how do you explain that Manu was better (according to SPM) than Duncan in 2005 playoffs? Or Amare one year?


Because both had a better combination of production and efficiency in those respective playoff seasons than Duncan? What else is there to explain? It is a boxscore metric, which doesn't take the non-boxscore stuff into account. Stoudemire's production and efficiency was greatly influenced by the presence of Nash, we know that, the boxscore does not. And Ginobili was actually pretty awesome in 2005.

DavidStern wrote:And I was talking about Boozer, because - if I understand that correctly - SPM player value is his offnsive production + defensive. So if SPM have problems with proper credit for defense, thus overall player's value might be wrong.


No, that is not how it works. I first calculate a value based on all the boxscore entries, then I have a subroutine comparing the offensive and defensive stuff in order to determine a split between offense and defense. For Boozer the algorithm comes up with a split in favor of the defense, because he has a lot of defensive rebounds on a good defensive team. The overall metric overrates Boozer, because his non-boxscore negative impact on defense is not included. That's just the way it is. But matter of fact is that I can predict the outcome of future games as well as RAPM can do it, that's why I recommend a mixture of RAPM and SPM to determine the better player. We need production and efficiency from the players as well as non-boxscore impact, SPM and RAPM covers all that.

DavidStern wrote:(And yes, I belive Hakeem was better defensively than Duncan. Pop's system makes Duncan looks better defensively than his true value)


Well, you are pretty much alone with such opinion, but feel free to advertise that. I think it is complete bs.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#63 » by ardee » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:26 pm

DavidStern wrote:
ardee wrote:
There's more. The Sixers also had a Defensive Rating of 94.6 (according to ElGee's blog). That was only a shade worse than Thurmond's Warriors (by 0.4 points), and a couple of points behind Russell's Celtics. So he was having the GOAT offensive season, and at the same time was having a MASSIVE defensive impact.


:lol:
Wilt's defensive impact that year is overrated. And your numbers are wrong. 76ers DRTG was -1.1; Celtics -4.6 (but it was Russell's first year as a coach and he clearly struggled with adjustment to player-coach role); Warriors -3, but Thurmond missed a lot of games.
So despite having great supporting cast (Jackson was probably the best defensive big in the NBA after Thurmond and Russell) Wilt wasn't able to lead 76ers to very good defensive results.

The Playoffs get even more ridiculous.

(and bunch of box score numbers]



It was discussed many times on this site that Wilt's box score numbers didn't translate to team success. Why we should think 67 season was any different? I men, he obviously was better than during his high volume scoring years, but no 1 peak of all time? I really don't see that kind of impact.




It's worth noting that after Chamberlain left the Sixers in '68-'69, they dropped 7 games in the win column and were eliminated in the first round against the Celtics.


Jackson was injured in '69.
And in '68, WITH Wilt, they also lost to Celtics.

Anyway, Wilt clearly had big positive impact on 76ers, but years before and after him don't show GOAT peak level impact. 1967 season is one of these Chamberlain's myths, but it's easier to believe this one because he finally won something and played more team ball than ever. Add great box score numbers (as always) and GOAT season myth is created. But in reality his impact wasn't that great that year, I honestly don't think it was bigger than Walton '77...


1. I was not talking about relative to DRtg relative to league average, but rather just plain DRtg.

In 1967, Boston was 92.2.
Philly was 94.6.
San Fran was 94.2.

2. "Wilt's box score numbers didn't translate to team success." 68-13 and an SRS of 12 during the Playoffs is not team success?!

It IS the no. 1 peak of all time whether you believe it or not. The numbers speak for themselves, as do the results.

3. Good of you not to mention that in 1968 the Sixers' second best player, Billy C, got injured after 3 games. Wilt got NO help, out of his remaining support cast only Greer shot above 41% from the field, Jones, Jackson and Walker were all TERRIBLE.

And how does the fact that he lost to the Celtics in '68 take away from the fact that in '67 he was in God-mode from game one, and absolutely destroyed the greatest defensive player of all time in the Eastern Conference Finals?
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#64 » by JordansBulls » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:42 pm

DavidStern wrote:vote: Hakeem 1993/94

- Only (?) player in history who won DPOTY, MVP and Finals MVP during one season.
- Unlike MJ '91 or even Wilt '67, Hakeem '94 was great on BOTH ends of the floor
- Hakeem '94 had less support than MJ '91 or Wilt '67
- 1994 Hakeem dominated one of the best centers of all time in H2H matchup (Ewing); 1991 MJ didn't do so to someone similar at SG position or Wilt at C position
- 1994 Rockets faced tougher competition in the playoffs than 1991 Bulls or 1967 76ers:
Phila '67
SFW 2.58 SRS
BOS 7.24 (and Russell was injured in the playooffs)
ROY -0.23

Bulls '91
LAL 6.73 (Worthy and Scott injured)
DET 3.07 (Isiah injured)
PHI -0.39
NYK -0.44


Rockets '94
NYK 6.48
UTA 4.10
PHO 4.68
PTB 2.6


How was MJ not great on both ends of the floor in 1991? Is that some type of joke?

Disagree (Bulls beat the 2x defending champions and also the Lakers facing the 2nd best player in the league in Magic Johnson the guy who won 2 MVP's in a row prior to 1991)
Also about less support, both players were the only allstars on there team in 1991 and 1994.
MJ went against Magic. Hakeem went against Ewing and also the 2x defending champion Pistons, so how was Hakeem's comp more elite? Not to mention Hakeem was in 2 elimination games and even down 3-2 in a series while having HCA.


Regarding Isiah he played all 4 games. And his numbers in that series was no different from
Previous years vs the Bulls. And Hakeem in 1994 didn't dominate more than MJ in 1991. Hakeem didn't even have the best stats in 1994.
Hakeem was 2nd in PER in the playoffs, was 5th in WS/PER 48 minutes, was 1st in win shares. Hakeem was 3rd in Win Shares in the regular season, wasn't even top 5 in WS/PER 48 minutes, and was 3rd in PER (5 points behind Robinson).
MJ was #1 in each of PER , WS and WS/PER minutes 48 minutes in the season and playoffs by a significant margin and literally just like Hakeem was the only allstar on his team that season.


Regarding the Lakers in 1991, Worthy averaged 41 mpg and played the first 4 games of the series.
Scott averaged 35 mpg and played the first 4 games of the series.

Bulls were up 3-1 by that point. Not to mention when Worthy left the game in game 4 the Bulls were already up 15 points.
And Scott got straight locked up. Dude shot 28% FG with MJ on him.


Worthy averaged 19 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg, on 48% FG in 41.0 mpg in the finals

Scott averaged 5 ppg, 2 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 28% FG in 35.0 mpg in the finals.


In the WCF

Worthy averaged 19 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 1 spg, on 46% FG in 38.0 mpg in the finals

Scott averaged 14 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 60% FG in 37.7 mpg in the finals.

The difference is that Scott was on lock in the NBA Finals while he got off in the WCF. Worthy averaged virtually the same thing he did in the WCF and NBA Finals.


In round 1

Worthy averaged 22 ppg, 3 rpg, 5 apg, 1 spg, on 46% FG in 42.3 mpg
Scott averaged 15 ppg, 2 rpg, 1 apg, 1 spg on 51% FG in 37.3 mpg
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#65 » by ThaRegul8r » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:39 pm

Since what I was going to say about Wilt's '67 has already been said by others, and I don't see the point in being redundant, I'm going to reserve this space for talk about Erving's '75-76, just to generation discussion.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#66 » by C-izMe » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:06 pm

I'm just going to put in a first vote and go with 2000 Shaq. I haven't heard many convincing arguments for Wilt 67 and the more I look at that season the more I see what he did as typical Wilt over the top numbers in a year that he won. I don't think his defensive impact was as good as Shaq's and I know his offensive impact wasn't. So what's left?
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The Case Against 2000 Shaq 

Post#67 » by ThaRegul8r » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:10 pm

C-izMe wrote:I'm just going to put in a first vote and go with 2000 Shaq. I haven't heard many convincing arguments for Wilt 67 and the more I look at that season the more I see what he did as typical Wilt over the top numbers in a year that he won. I don't think his defensive impact was as good as Shaq's and I know his offensive impact wasn't. So what's left?


I keep hearing people talking about 2000 Shaq, but I just can't endorse this. I remember that season, and some things people gloss over in retrospect.

#1)

Before addressing the NBA Finals, a word or two concerning Game 7 in the West is in order.

Actually, one word will do: choke.

Ah, that's such a nasty, searing, and utterly uncomplimentary word, is it not? It is as touchy a concept as exists in our sport lexicon, and it should not be used with impunity. It is the ultimate insult. It means that someone lacked not the talent as much as the nerve. 99.9 percent of the time, it is misapplied and completely inappropriate.

On Sunday we all bore witness to the remaining one-tenth of 1 percent when the Portland Trail Blazers lost all composure and every bit of their rational thought process while missing 14 straight shots and going 8:11 without a basket after leading by 15 early in the fourth period. The Trail Blazers went for the trifecta. They had the dry throats, the sweaty palms, and the brainlock.

The nightmare culminated when Rasheed Wallace, a noble figure for most of that game and the series in general, stepped to the line with his team down by 4. His first shot assaulted the back of the rim. His second barely caressed the front. It was all sad and pathetic, and if anyone asks you if you’ve ever seen a professional team choke, you say why, sure. Back in 2000, I saw the Trail Blazers choke away the Western Conference title against the Lakers.


That was the biggest choke I ever witnessed. It was the first thing that came to mind when Josephpaul asked about All time basketball Chokes. When I think about GOAT season, I want the player in question to lead his team past the opposition. To beat them. Not for another team to choke.

Yes, the Lakers are the most talented team in the NBA, but it took Portland’s colossal choke to keep them alive.


You've got Wilt leading the 76ers past the GOAT dynasty in the history of sports, and I'm going to rank a season in which the other team had to choke in order for them to advance? Can't do it. Everyone talks about '00 Shaq, but if Portland hadn't choked, he wins nothing, even despite all the dominance everyone talks about. Which leads me to:

#2

C-izMe wrote:In the playoffs he was a monster. Only had one game where he didn't have at least 20 points or 10 rebounds. In the Finals he averaged 15.5fta per game and put up 38/16.7/2.3 59.3TS. The only series that you can say he "struggled" in was against Portland. He still put up 25.9/12.4/4.3 with 14.1ftpg on 54.8TS. Not his best but still dominate.


Advocates are often guilty of omitting pertinent information. I remember Shaq having 18 points and nine rebounds in that Game 7 in which the Blazers had to choke for the Lakers to advance. I also remember Shaq going for 17 points on 7-for-17 shooting in Game 6. He had three sub-20-point games during that postseason, those two coming back-to-back in Game 6 and Game 7 after averaging 29.2 points on 55.8 percent shooting in the first five games. That's a helluva time to put together back-to-back <20 point games in the two most important games of the series when you're the league's leading scorer.

And let's be fair here. If Wilt Chamberlain did that, he would be ripped for choking and "wilting" in the two biggest games of the series. So why the double standard? Why does Shaq get a pass?

Because they won.

But in that Game 7, Kobe Bryant led the Lakers with 25 points (to Shaq's 18), and had game-highs of 11 rebounds (to Shaq's 9), seven assists (to Shaq's five), and four blocked shots (to Shaq's one). In Game 6, Kobe had a game-high 33 points, six assists, four steals and three blocked shots. But as I've said before, I don't care what a player's teammates do, I'm interested in the player in question's individual performance. People act like Shaq is this unstoppable force who steamrolls over the opposition, but contrary to the hype, he was not unstoppable. Shaq's individual performance in the biggest games of the series was subpar in a series they by all rights should have lost anyway were it not for a monumental gag job, and since we're talking about GOAT season, he cannot be #1 as far as I'm concerned. Not when you've got seasons like Wilt dethroning the eight-peat Celtics, with his individual performance being beyond reproach. You've got to come up big when it matters, whenever your team needs it. So, no, Shaq 2000 is eliminated from the #1 spot on my list of GOAT seasons. Everyone else's mileage may vary, but I cannot in good conscience vote this season as GOAT.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#68 » by lorak » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:24 pm

therealbig3 wrote:BTW, Duncan in those Finals went up against a rotation of K-Mart (young, athletic, strong, quick...just an all-around excellent defender), Collins (excellent man defender), A. Williams (nothing special, but above average defender with solid athleticism), and limited minutes against Mutombo (no more needs to be said)...that was actually a pretty stacked defensive front court for the Nets. Now, the reason they got shat on by Shaq the year before was because they physically didn't have anyone that could handle Shaq. Duncan was not the same physical mismatch that Shaq was, so the NJ front court in 03 SHOULD have caused him a lot of problems, because they had a lot of solid defenders, including 3 elite defensive players in K-Mart, Collins, and Mutombo.

Duncan destroying that front court is a huge positive for him. No, it wasn't the same as the 94 Knicks front court, but it was far from trash. It was an excellent defensive front court, and the Nets as a team overall were elite defensively.



True. But 1994 Knicks were -8.1 DRTG team (that gives them 9th place all time). 2003 Nets "only" -5.5 (45th place all time). So the difference is significant. And also Hakeem himself did outstanding job defensively on Ewing.
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Re: The Case Against 2000 Shaq 

Post#69 » by JordansBulls » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:35 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
C-izMe wrote:I'm just going to put in a first vote and go with 2000 Shaq. I haven't heard many convincing arguments for Wilt 67 and the more I look at that season the more I see what he did as typical Wilt over the top numbers in a year that he won. I don't think his defensive impact was as good as Shaq's and I know his offensive impact wasn't. So what's left?


I keep hearing people talking about 2000 Shaq, but I just can't endorse this. I remember that season, and some things people gloss over in retrospect.

#1)

Before addressing the NBA Finals, a word or two concerning Game 7 in the West is in order.

Actually, one word will do: choke.

Ah, that's such a nasty, searing, and utterly uncomplimentary word, is it not? It is as touchy a concept as exists in our sport lexicon, and it should not be used with impunity. It is the ultimate insult. It means that someone lacked not the talent as much as the nerve. 99.9 percent of the time, it is misapplied and completely inappropriate.

On Sunday we all bore witness to the remaining one-tenth of 1 percent when the Portland Trail Blazers lost all composure and every bit of their rational thought process while missing 14 straight shots and going 8:11 without a basket after leading by 15 early in the fourth period. The Trail Blazers went for the trifecta. They had the dry throats, the sweaty palms, and the brainlock.

The nightmare culminated when Rasheed Wallace, a noble figure for most of that game and the series in general, stepped to the line with his team down by 4. His first shot assaulted the back of the rim. His second barely caressed the front. It was all sad and pathetic, and if anyone asks you if you’ve ever seen a professional team choke, you say why, sure. Back in 2000, I saw the Trail Blazers choke away the Western Conference title against the Lakers.


That was the biggest choke I ever witnessed. It was the first thing that came to mind when Josephpaul asked about All time basketball Chokes. When I think about GOAT season, I want the player in question to lead his team past the opposition. To beat them. Not for another team to choke.

Yes, the Lakers are the most talented team in the NBA, but it took Portland’s colossal choke to keep them alive.


You've got Wilt leading the 76ers past the GOAT dynasty in the history of sports, and I'm going to rank a season in which the other team had to choke in order for them to advance? Can't do it. Everyone talks about '00 Shaq, but if Portland hadn't choked, he wins nothing, even despite all the dominance everyone talks about. Which leads me to:

#2

C-izMe wrote:In the playoffs he was a monster. Only had one game where he didn't have at least 20 points or 10 rebounds. In the Finals he averaged 15.5fta per game and put up 38/16.7/2.3 59.3TS. The only series that you can say he "struggled" in was against Portland. He still put up 25.9/12.4/4.3 with 14.1ftpg on 54.8TS. Not his best but still dominate.


Advocates are often guilty of omitting pertinent information. I remember Shaq having 18 points and nine rebounds in that Game 7 in which the Blazers had to choke for the Lakers to advance. I also remember Shaq going for 17 points on 7-for-17 shooting in Game 6. He had three sub-20-point games during that postseason, those two coming back-to-back in Game 6 and Game 7 after averaging 29.2 points on 55.8 percent shooting in the first five games. That's a helluva time to put together back-to-back <20 point games in the two most important games of the series when you're the league's leading scorer.

And let's be fair here. If Wilt Chamberlain did that, he would be ripped for choking and "wilting" in the two biggest games of the series. So why the double standard? Why does Shaq get a pass?

Because they won.

But in that Game 7, Kobe Bryant led the Lakers with 25 points (to Shaq's 18), and had game-highs of 11 rebounds (to Shaq's 9), seven assists (to Shaq's five), and four blocked shots (to Shaq's one). In Game 6, Kobe had a game-high 33 points, six assists, four steals and three blocked shots. But as I've said before, I don't care what a player's teammates do, I'm interested in the player in question's individual performance. People act like Shaq is this unstoppable force who steamrolls over the opposition, but contrary to the hype, he was not unstoppable. Shaq's individual performance in the biggest games of the series was subpar in a series they by all rights should have lost anyway were it not for a monumental gag job, and since we're talking about GOAT season, he cannot be #1 as far as I'm concerned. Not when you've got seasons like Wilt dethroning the eight-peat Celtics, with his individual performance being beyond reproach. You've got to come up big when it matters, whenever your team needs it. So, no, Shaq 2000 is eliminated from the #1 spot on my list of GOAT seasons. Everyone else's mileage may vary, but I cannot in good conscience vote this season as GOAT.




Also another thing people mention is the fact Shaq in 2000 as the #1 seed went the distance in round 1 against an 8th seeded team. That shouldn't happen.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#70 » by lorak » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:36 pm

mysticbb wrote:Because both had a better combination of production and efficiency in those respective playoff seasons than Duncan? What else is there to explain? It is a boxscore metric, which doesn't take the non-boxscore stuff into account. Stoudemire's production and efficiency was greatly influenced by the presence of Nash, we know that, the boxscore does not. And Ginobili was actually pretty awesome in 2005.



This. So don't you think Duncan's box score production was influenced by Manu, Parker and Pop?
Or different question - don't you think Manu, Parker and Pop make life easier for Duncan than Rudy T, Thorpe and Kenny for Hakeem?


No, that is not how it works. I first calculate a value based on all the boxscore entries, then I have a subroutine comparing the offensive and defensive stuff in order to determine a split between offense and defense. For Boozer the algorithm comes up with a split in favor of the defense, because he has a lot of defensive rebounds on a good defensive team. The overall metric overrates Boozer, because his non-boxscore negative impact on defense is not included. That's just the way it is.


OK, thanks for explanation.
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Re: The Case Against 2000 Shaq 

Post#71 » by ardee » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:39 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
C-izMe wrote:I'm just going to put in a first vote and go with 2000 Shaq. I haven't heard many convincing arguments for Wilt 67 and the more I look at that season the more I see what he did as typical Wilt over the top numbers in a year that he won. I don't think his defensive impact was as good as Shaq's and I know his offensive impact wasn't. So what's left?


I keep hearing people talking about 2000 Shaq, but I just can't endorse this. I remember that season, and some things people gloss over in retrospect.

#1)

Before addressing the NBA Finals, a word or two concerning Game 7 in the West is in order.

Actually, one word will do: choke.

Ah, that's such a nasty, searing, and utterly uncomplimentary word, is it not? It is as touchy a concept as exists in our sport lexicon, and it should not be used with impunity. It is the ultimate insult. It means that someone lacked not the talent as much as the nerve. 99.9 percent of the time, it is misapplied and completely inappropriate.

On Sunday we all bore witness to the remaining one-tenth of 1 percent when the Portland Trail Blazers lost all composure and every bit of their rational thought process while missing 14 straight shots and going 8:11 without a basket after leading by 15 early in the fourth period. The Trail Blazers went for the trifecta. They had the dry throats, the sweaty palms, and the brainlock.

The nightmare culminated when Rasheed Wallace, a noble figure for most of that game and the series in general, stepped to the line with his team down by 4. His first shot assaulted the back of the rim. His second barely caressed the front. It was all sad and pathetic, and if anyone asks you if you’ve ever seen a professional team choke, you say why, sure. Back in 2000, I saw the Trail Blazers choke away the Western Conference title against the Lakers.


That was the biggest choke I ever witnessed. It was the first thing that came to mind when Josephpaul asked about All time basketball Chokes. When I think about GOAT season, I want the player in question to lead his team past the opposition. To beat them. Not for another team to choke.

Yes, the Lakers are the most talented team in the NBA, but it took Portland’s colossal choke to keep them alive.


You've got Wilt leading the 76ers past the GOAT dynasty in the history of sports, and I'm going to rank a season in which the other team had to choke in order for them to advance? Can't do it. Everyone talks about '00 Shaq, but if Portland hadn't choked, he wins nothing, even despite all the dominance everyone talks about. Which leads me to:

#2

C-izMe wrote:In the playoffs he was a monster. Only had one game where he didn't have at least 20 points or 10 rebounds. In the Finals he averaged 15.5fta per game and put up 38/16.7/2.3 59.3TS. The only series that you can say he "struggled" in was against Portland. He still put up 25.9/12.4/4.3 with 14.1ftpg on 54.8TS. Not his best but still dominate.


Advocates are often guilty of omitting pertinent information. I remember Shaq having 18 points and nine rebounds in that Game 7 in which the Blazers had to choke for the Lakers to advance. I also remember Shaq going for 17 points on 7-for-17 shooting in Game 6. He had three sub-20-point games during that postseason, those two coming back-to-back in Game 6 and Game 7 after averaging 29.2 points on 55.8 percent shooting in the first five games. That's a helluva time to put together back-to-back <20 point games in the two most important games of the series when you're the league's leading scorer.

And let's be fair here. If Wilt Chamberlain did that, he would be ripped for choking and "wilting" in the two biggest games of the series. So why the double standard? Why does Shaq get a pass?

Because they won.

But in that Game 7, Kobe Bryant led the Lakers with 25 points (to Shaq's 18), and had game-highs of 11 rebounds (to Shaq's 9), seven assists (to Shaq's five), and four blocked shots (to Shaq's one). In Game 6, Kobe had a game-high 33 points, six assists, four steals and three blocked shots. But as I've said before, I don't care what a player's teammates do, I'm interested in the player in question's individual performance. People act like Shaq is this unstoppable force who steamrolls over the opposition, but contrary to the hype, he was not unstoppable. Shaq's individual performance in the biggest games of the series was subpar in a series they by all rights should have lost anyway were it not for a monumental gag job, and since we're talking about GOAT season, he cannot be #1 as far as I'm concerned. Not when you've got seasons like Wilt dethroning the eight-peat Celtics, with his individual performance being beyond reproach. You've got to come up big when it matters, whenever your team needs it. So, no, Shaq 2000 is eliminated from the #1 spot on my list of GOAT seasons. Everyone else's mileage may vary, but I cannot in good conscience vote this season as GOAT.


This.

And once again, people are discounting the fact that Chamberlain was playing against Russell and Thurmond, Shaq against an aging Sabonis and Rik Smits in his last year.

And Chamberlain's performances were far superior to Shaq in an all-round sense. When Shaq wasn't scoring, it was difficult for him to affect the game on the offensive end, as we saw in the Blazer games.

Wilt, on the other hand, was arguably one of the two best playmakers in the NBA that year. Look at the Royals series... He had 19 assists in one game, because of which Greer, Walker and Cunningham all scored 20 or more. The Sixers romped to a 121-106 victory.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 40PHI.html

I don't understand the agenda against Wilt here.

He's scoring 'too much', yet takes his average team to within one point of beating the back-to-back-to-back defending champions Celtics in 1962, and you mark him down.

He's fit into the mold of everyone's favorite player Russell, defending, rebounding and passing as his first priorities, and then add 24 ppg on 68% shooting for good measure, and leads his team to 68-13, and people still 'can't see his impact'.

This just smacks of a strange, stubborn attitude. If someone nearly averages a triple double, breaks the field goal percentage accuracy record, and wins the MVP on a title team, people start claiming his offensive impact 'was not that good'.

I can understand if people don't rank him no. 1 in favor of Jordan or Shaq but when people say things like this:

DavidStern wrote:
But in reality his impact wasn't that great that year, I honestly don't think it was bigger than Walton '77...


It just makes me want to shake my head.

Going by the votes already it seems like Wilt will be no. 1, can't wait for him to get voted in so this pointless trolling stops and we can move on.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#72 » by lorak » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:44 pm

ardee wrote:1. I was not talking about relative to DRtg relative to league average, but rather just plain DRtg.

In 1967, Boston was 92.2.
Philly was 94.6.
San Fran was 94.2.


http://www.backpicks.com/2012/02/22/tea ... 1973/#1967

2. "Wilt's box score numbers didn't translate to team success." 68-13 and an SRS of 12 during the Playoffs is not team success?!


I didn't say that. I said his impact that year wasn't GOAT level. He obviously had huge positive impact on that team, but just not as great as some think. Especially on defense he seems to be overrated here.


3. Good of you not to mention that in 1968 the Sixers' second best player, Billy C, got injured after 3 games. Wilt got NO help, out of his remaining support cast only Greer shot above 41% from the field, Jones, Jackson and Walker were all TERRIBLE.


So if they lost it's Greer and Chet and others fault. But when they won credit shouldn't go to Greer, Walker and the rest, but to Wilt? Great.

And how does the fact that he lost to the Celtics in '68 take away from the fact that in '67 he was in God-mode from game one, and absolutely destroyed the greatest defensive player of all time in the Eastern Conference Finals?


Russell was injured. Besides that was his first year as player-coach and he obviously struggled to adjust to that role.

BTW, here are some of Bastillon's post on that subjetc:

bastillon wrote:it has been mentioned before that Russell was injured and that Sixers championship was thus, according to the author, tainted. on the other hand, informed poster like Warspite said that he had never heard about it before so we should probably look deeper.

now it makes sense - Celtics were 5-4 vs Philly in '67 RS, 4-4 in '68 RS (lost 2 games when Russ and Hondo were resting for the playoffs so it's basically 4-2) and 4-3 in '68 PS. it's incredibly strange that suddenly they were pounded by 10 pts on average in that series, while they outscored Celtics by 2 pts in the '67 RS. they did that by scoring 121 PPG in that series (111 vs Cs in '67 RS) it also coincided with Russell having the worst series of his career. what are the odds ?

fun fact: 1st time 67ers played Celtics, they destroyed them 138-96. Celtics come back week later and win 105-87. I've never seen such a turnaround. from -42 to +18 ? I mean wow. also, without that first game Philly scored 107.5 and was outscored by 3 pts so that game turned the sample around.

the point is that Celtics and 76ers were very much equal in 67-68 and it was a consistent trend. what jumps out is 67 postseason where the Celtics played just... poorly, with Russell playing the worst series of his career, basically making no impact. I'd say there's a pretty big chance he was injured badly.




bastillon wrote:for the record, I'm putting Wilt at #1 this year, but his year was hardly GOAT year. he won because he had probably the most stacked team ever (relative to lg avg talent at every position). one of the best PFs, perhaps two of top3 SFs, 2nd best SG and a solid role player at PG. this team would be a strong contender without Wilt (when healthy).
.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#73 » by ardee » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:58 pm

C-izMe wrote:I'm just going to put in a first vote and go with 2000 Shaq. I haven't heard many convincing arguments for Wilt 67 and the more I look at that season the more I see what he did as typical Wilt over the top numbers in a year that he won. I don't think his defensive impact was as good as Shaq's and I know his offensive impact wasn't. So what's left?


Can you back that statement up?

Here are a few stats, for kicks:

Shaq free-throw rate: 0.49.
Wilt free-throw rate: 0.76.

Both were very poor at free-throw conversion, but Wilt was much better at getting the opposing bigs into foul trouble.

Shaq TS%: 58%
Wilt TS%: 64%

Average DRtg of the teams Shaq faced: 101.38
Average DRtg of the teams Wilt faced: 95.2

Centers Shaq faced during the 2000 run: Luc Longley, Vlade Divac, 36 year old Sabonis, and Rik Smits :lol:
Centers Wilt faced during the 1967 run: Jerry Lucas, Bill Russell, and Nate Thurmond.

Number of times Kobe had to bail out Shaq in the 2000 playoff run: 2. Game 7 against the Blazers, and game 4 against the Pacers when Shaq fouled out.
Number of times ANYONE had to bail out Wilt during the 1967 run: 0. He was playing practically flawless ball every game.

And for what it's worth, Wilt never fouled out in a game, least of all a godamn Finals game.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#74 » by PTB Fan » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:54 pm

Vote: '00 Shaquille O'Neal

TheRegul8tor had decent points for Wilt, but I'm still going with O'Neal as my first choice. Outside of one to two bad games, he was amazing in all the other. Should have been the first unanimous MVP winner in NBA History, ranked first in scoring, first in efficiency, second in rebounds, third in blocks, topped several other advanced categories, won all the MVP awards, dominated the postseason and Finals. He had two bad games, but still did enough for his team to win.


'67 Wilt and '76 Kareem came very very close as well as few more choices like '86 Bird, '87 Magic etc. It's a crime how Wilt gets called for "choking" in some seasons where he clearly didn't. He faced a HOF big man at least 60% of the time. Not many understand that..
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#75 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:15 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:I'd actually meant to discuss Erving's 1975-76 season. I have '75-76 Erving on one of my all-time teams, and was thinking about that season in regards to this project. I wanted to put some stuff out there and see what other people have to say to get an idea of where I want to rank that season overall among the GOAT seasons.

I think one useful thing though is for people to put aside preconceptions and attempt to evaluate each season objectively. Many people already have their minds made up and their intent is solely to switch everyone else to their way of thinking rather than actually having an open discussion about it.


Cool, sounds like we'll both have a lot to say on the matter. I'll take some time now.

To y'all, let me say up front, this is not a "Julius has to be #1" argument, but a "this had better blow your mind" statement. Obviously other players will blow your mind to, so just keep it in mind.

In the '75-76 ABA season, Julius Erving led his team to the title. In doing so, he led his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals, making him the only player in history to do this while winning a title (LeBron would have been the 2nd if his team had won in '08-09). Also of interest, he did this while being arguably the most graceful player in history, winning the inaugural slam dunk contest, becoming known as "the League" for his combination of talent, grace, and universal leadership he displayed.

In the finals, he went for 37 & 14 while being the focus of the opponent's defense, and especially of all-world defender Bobby Jones. It might be the most impressive "biggest stage" performance in history.

The following year, as part of the merger that Erving's existence forced to happen, an existing NBA team got to have Erving. So he went from the Nets to the 76ers. Briefly, his year with the 76ers was quite good, however it differed first and foremost because on the 76ers the team already had their version of Erving in George McGinnis (who probably was the closest in build to LeBron we've ever seen), which gave us what is now a classic recipe for redundancy. Both players compromised, but especially the genial Erving who let McGinnis be ever so slightly the team's greater focal point (more shots, rebounds, assists). However, Erving obviously outperformed McGinnis (still ended up lead scorer on vastly superior efficiency, and led in modern advanced stats), and the eventually the team traded McGinnis.

Let's get into the ABA teams involved for a second. The fact that Erving's big season happened right before the merger actually gives us MORE information about his impact than we typically get for historical seasons because of his transfer to another team.

Erving's team was the Nets. With him, they won the ABA title. The next year without him, they were the worst team in the NBA. That doesn't describe the scale of how bad they were though. This was a league with 22 teams in it, and the parity was very strong. The best team won only 53 games, and the 2nd worst team won 30. A gap of only 23 games compared to today's league where a gap of over 40 is typical. In this league then where there was such a narrow gap between the teams, the Nets won only 22 games. What that means is that the gap between the elites and the middling teams in this league was roughy comparable to the gap between the terrible teams and the Nets. The Nets were a traveshamockery of a team.

Now, you might ask, "But wasn't the ABA the weaker league in general? Isn't the Nets struggle largely just a reflection on that?" But it really wasn't, and the next place we look makes this clear. The team the Nets beat in the finals in '75-76 was the Nuggets, and they were fortunate enough to keep their team intact (unlike the Nets and some others), how did they do in the NBA?

Well, they tied for the 2nd best record in the league, and had the 2nd best SRS that was only slightly below their SRS in the ABA. There was only one team with a better SRS, and that team happened to beat them in the playoffs and go on to win the title. That team was, of course, the Blazers who were led by a primary star who only emerged that season and a secondary star who had just come over from the ABA in the merger.

To put it another way: The only reason the 2nd best ABA team didn't march right in and win the NBA title is because of players who didn't exist in the NBA the previous year. So Erving's competition to win that ABA title was steep indeed. This truly is a case of a player taking a team that would be (easily) the worst in the NBA and making them what would have won an NBA title. Who else in history can claim such impact?

(continuing on the next post with some other tidbits)
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#76 » by lorak » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:23 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Now, you might ask, "But wasn't the ABA the weaker league in general?


The question I would ask is: wasn't 70s NBA and ABA weaker than 60s, 80s, 90s and 00s NBA, because of talent split between two leagues?

I agree that late ABA was equal (or maybe even slightly better) to NBA, but that's not the problem here, where we compare players from different eras. So strength of the league when player X was great matters here.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#77 » by PTB Fan » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:39 pm

How about '86 Larry Bird? Averaged 25.8 points, 9.6 boards and 5.8 assists on 49.6% field goal percent, 42.3% three point percent, 89.6% free throw percent and 58.0% true shooting percentage in 38 minutes throughout the regular season. Boston posted a league best 67-15 record. For his excellence, he was awarded with a MVP (with a comfortable margin over his opponents), led the league in FT%, PER and was All-First NBA Team.

In the postseason, Larry posted averages of 25.9 points, 9.3 boards and 8.2 assists on 51.7% field goal percentage, 41.1% three point percentage, 92.7% free throw percentage and 61.5% true shooting percentage in 42.8 minutes of action. He ranked seventh in points, fifth in assists, eight in rebounding and third in minutes during the playoffs.

He elevated himself across the board overall in the playoff series and was absolutely amazing in the Finals. He averaged 24 points, 9.5 assists, 9.7 rebounds and 3.2 steals on 48.2% field goal percentage, 35.0% three point percentage and 93.9% free throw percentage once when he got there. That's basically a triple double in average when the numbers are rounded. He finished off the Rockets with a 29/12/11 triple double.

Bird was rightfully awarded with a Finals MVP and was amazing in there. '86 Larry Legend should be regarded with the best ever.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#78 » by PTB Fan » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:41 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:I'd actually meant to discuss Erving's 1975-76 season. I have '75-76 Erving on one of my all-time teams, and was thinking about that season in regards to this project. I wanted to put some stuff out there and see what other people have to say to get an idea of where I want to rank that season overall among the GOAT seasons.

I think one useful thing though is for people to put aside preconceptions and attempt to evaluate each season objectively. Many people already have their minds made up and their intent is solely to switch everyone else to their way of thinking rather than actually having an open discussion about it.


Cool, sounds like we'll both have a lot to say on the matter. I'll take some time now.

To y'all, let me say up front, this is not a "Julius has to be #1" argument, but a "this had better blow your mind" statement. Obviously other players will blow your mind to, so just keep it in mind.

In the '75-76 ABA season, Julius Erving led his team to the title. In doing so, he led his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals, making him the only player in history to do this while winning a title (LeBron would have been the 2nd if his team had won in '08-09). Also of interest, he did this while being arguably the most graceful player in history, winning the inaugural slam dunk contest, becoming known as "the League" for his combination of talent, grace, and universal leadership he displayed.

In the finals, he went for 37 & 14 while being the focus of the opponent's defense, and especially of all-world defender Bobby Jones. It might be the most impressive "biggest stage" performance in history.

The following year, as part of the merger that Erving's existence forced to happen, an existing NBA team got to have Erving. So he went from the Nets to the 76ers. Briefly, his year with the 76ers was quite good, however it differed first and foremost because on the 76ers the team already had their version of Erving in George McGinnis (who probably was the closest in build to LeBron we've ever seen), which gave us what is now a classic recipe for redundancy. Both players compromised, but especially the genial Erving who let McGinnis be ever so slightly the team's greater focal point (more shots, rebounds, assists). However, Erving obviously outperformed McGinnis (still ended up lead scorer on vastly superior efficiency, and led in modern advanced stats), and the eventually the team traded McGinnis.

Let's get into the ABA teams involved for a second. The fact that Erving's big season happened right before the merger actually gives us MORE information about his impact than we typically get for historical seasons because of his transfer to another team.

Erving's team was the Nets. With him, they won the ABA title. The next year without him, they were the worst team in the NBA. That doesn't describe the scale of how bad they were though. This was a league with 22 teams in it, and the parity was very strong. The best team won only 53 games, and the 2nd worst team won 30. A gap of only 23 games compared to today's league where a gap of over 40 is typical. In this league then where there was such a narrow gap between the teams, the Nets won only 22 games. What that means is that the gap between the elites and the middling teams in this league was roughy comparable to the gap between the terrible teams and the Nets. The Nets were a traveshamockery of a team.

Now, you might ask, "But wasn't the ABA the weaker league in general? Isn't the Nets struggle largely just a reflection on that?" But it really wasn't, and the next place we look makes this clear. The team the Nets beat in the finals in '75-76 was the Nuggets, and they were fortunate enough to keep their team intact (unlike the Nets and some others), how did they do in the NBA?

Well, they tied for the 2nd best record in the league, and had the 2nd best SRS that was only slightly below their SRS in the ABA. There was only one team with a better SRS, and that team happened to beat them in the playoffs and go on to win the title. That team was, of course, the Blazers who were led by a primary star who only emerged that season and a secondary star who had just come over from the ABA in the merger.

To put it another way: The only reason the 2nd best ABA team didn't march right in and win the NBA title is because of players who didn't exist in the NBA the previous year. So Erving's competition to win that ABA title was steep indeed. This truly is a case of a player taking a team that would be (easily) the worst in the NBA and making them what would have won an NBA title. Who else in history can claim such impact?

(continuing on the next post with some other tidbits)


Indeed, that was an amazing effort. This may be the most all-around season ever and Dr J was off the charts on the highest stage. It's a crime that he's overlooked.
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#79 » by C-izMe » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:02 pm

Those posts abou Shaq bring up good points but Shaq having 2 bad games (someone brought up the game where he fouled out. He still had 36/21 on 55TS in regulation. Still a monster game) can bring him down but Wilt had a way better team. I just saw their statistics without Wilt (two years later) and they were still a good team. Actually that team from two years later would be the 3rd best team if they were transported to 67. Shaq's team without him is just as good as those Kings they went to 5 games against (most likely worse). Without Shaq playing well (even if Kobe played well) they didn't win (aside from the epic Portland choke). And all it takes IMO is 15-16 great playoff games. I a player averages 35/18 in wins (just a random number) and 20/9 in losses and wins the title I think that boosts him. It proves the team can't win without them putting up monster numbers and the fact that he was able to put up monster numbers for that many games impresses me. The Sixers really only needed Wilt to win against Boston and while he served his role he had the best team by far. And he played better individual talent than Shaq but he played way worse teams (other than the Celtics).
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Re: #1 Highest Peak of All Time 

Post#80 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:03 pm

Okay, let's consider some other tidbits:

For those in more doubt about the ABA, be aware that the NBA & ABA played exhibition games against each other for much of the time they both existed. The NBA dominated in early years when there was no doubt they were the superior league, however the ABA kept getting better and better and in the last 3 seasons the ABA won more than the NBA did.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatis ... tions.html

Some have tried to argue that the NBA didn't really try in those games, but that's just silly. Can you imagine a scenario where you play games against a rival organization competing for the same dollars you are, and you throw the games? In doing so, you'd only legitimize your competitor more and more. The NBA would never do this.

What about the NBA players? Maybe they didn't care since it was just an exhibition? Well, if they weren't trying it was sure hard to tell. We're seeing star players from each league play big minutes, put up big numbers, and sometimes getting thrown out of games. That sound like they were taking it easy?


Okay, now what about the ABA's lack of defense. The ABA was known for being an offense-only league, right? Yes, but in retrospect, we now see how inaccurate that was.

Yes, offenses in the ABA were more successful than offenses in the NBA. However, when the league's merged, guess who dominated the league on the defensive side of the ball? That's right ABA alumni.

In the '76-77 NBA:

#1 defense was the Denver Nuggets who had been only the #3 defense in the ABA in '75-76.

#2 defense was the Chicago Bulls who had been lucky enough to get a new defensive superstar that year - Artis Gilmore. Actually it wasn't luck. The Bulls owned the NBA rights to Gilmore, and refused to agree to the merger unless his ABA (the extremely successful Kentucky Colonels) were not allowed to join the NBA thereby giving them the excuse that Gilmore was theres. Incidentally, the Colonels were the #2 defense in the NBA the previous year.

The #4 & #5 NBA defenses were also related to this new version of the NBA. #4 was Erving's 76ers, #5 was the aforementioned Blazers.

Now, hopefully you've been paying attention and are wondering, "Wait, so who ran the best defense in the ABA the previous year?". That would be the Erving's Nets. With a defense with Erving taking the primary role on all sides, they were the best in the league, and there's every reason to think that would have continued in the NBA given that the other top ABA teams excelled defensively in the NBA.

Okay, so this feeds into another question: How good was Erving's defense? He didn't get defensive awards despite putting up numbers that typically guarantee such love nowadays, so what's the explanation? I've come to the conclusion that there is no good explanation in terms of a justification for this. We know that even nowadays defensive accolades are oftentimes far off the mark and based on reputation. And here's what else we know:

-As mentioned, the Nets were elite on defense in '75-76 with Erving, and fell off without him '76-77. (Though they didn't become hideous on that front. They were mediocre on defense, but utterly inept on offense as you'd expect when you lose Erving.)

-Erving joined the Nets in '73-74. The previous year they had had a below average defense, but with Erving they zoomed up to #1 in the league on defense on their way to winning the title.

-The narrative being painted that the ABA was an offense only league was a massive blitz campaigned BY the NBA in order to make the razzle dazzle of the ABA seem illegitimate. The face of that razzle dazzle was Erving. He was the player making basketball exciting, and so before they finally agreed to a merger, they first did quite a lot to try to demean what he represented.

-You can't really find articles specifically taking Erving to task for loafing around on defense or hurting his team by gambling ridiculously. By contrast you can find articles praising his defense especially from those familiar with the ABA.

-I will acknowledge that even in the ABA it's not like he was a lock every year for defensive accolades (he only made it in annus mirabilis '75-76), and I don't have a complete explanation for that. It's possible they bought into Erving to some degree as an offensive player as well. Certainly the fact that there was no 2nd team for All-Defense was a potential issue. It's also noteworthy that in that '73-74 season where Erving joins the Nets and they rocket up to the best defense in the league, the only Net on the All-Defensive team is one who was there less than half of the season and who had been on the All-Defensive team the previous year. One more case where it seems like people back then seemed to be struggling to identify even which teams were succeeding on defense.

I imagine all that is enough for people to say, "Okay, Erving was a solid defender who maybe could have gotten an All-Defensive team or two".

Actually, I think the underestimation of Erving was probably far more severe than that. Guys who flirt with 2 blocks & 2 steals, like Erving continued to do long after he joined the NBA, are doing something extremely unusual. Only 5 guys have ever done that (since they started tracking the star 40 years ago), and Erving managed to go for 1.8 & 1.8 at age 33, something no one else in history has done.

A player only does this by being extremely active, and covering large swaths of court space. And if he's doing that, either he's leaving his team's defense ready to get slaughtered by his gambles, or he's doing it in a smart way that let's the team thrive. Granted that everything is a bit of a grayscale. A sample gamble is still a gamble that fails sometimes, and it's possible that was a smart gamble at one point in a player's career because a dumb one later on when his athleticism wanes.

With Erving though, people don't talk about him as a stupid gambler, and his prime is filled with example of great defensive teams including examples where the greatness came with his presence.

Suffice to say, Erving probably should have been a lock for All-Defensive honors, and a dark horse DPOY contender in some years, much like LeBron is now.
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