Moses vs Dirk

[HeatRing2012]

oh look, another thread were kasino is getting dominated again.
it used to be bastillion, later ElGee, sometimes ChrisEvanz and now mysticbb - I sense a trend here

that said: if we look at the post season: Dirk easily
if we look at the regular season: more difficult, but Dirk is more complete, so I'd choice him as well

[kasino]

who are these people
I at least saw ElGee very recognizable tag but don't remember having a debate with that user
I think I got a comment like this from bastillion but please link to where were going at it
who the heck is ChrisEvanz
and who are you Heat bandwagon fan

[Warspite]

Everyone has a stretch 4 that shoots outside jumpers in todays NBA. What nobody has is a low post wrecking ball that forces your team give up transition offense and has the ability physcialy wear down whole teams and guts them with his power and ability to draw fouls + he can shoot fts.

I .

Again. Its amazing how people post on an NBA forum in 2012 yet seemingly have no idea how Dirk actually plays. Dirk was never a "stretch 4" ever. Not ever in his career was his game this one-dimensional. Dirk avg 6.5 FTA per game for his career and much more than that in the playoffs. When he was younger most of that was created off the dribble. Now more of that is coming from his work in the low and high posts. Of course Moses Malone is a better player than Ryan Anderson or Matt Bonner or whomever is you know actually a stretch 4.

Moses was a hell of a player and if you want to pick him ahead of Dirk I disagree but I think you can make a decent case for Moses. Just make a legitimite one.

Moses Malone was the best player in the NBA during a time in which the last 12MVP winners as well as 6 of next 7 MVP winners were playing. Every MVP winner from 1971-1990 except MJ were in the NBA when Moses won his last MVP.

Moses Malone would not face anywhere near the talent in 2012 that he faced in the early 80s. He would be like MJ playing in the 60s or Shaq in the ABA.


If TS% took into account offensive rebs of your own shots the adv stat geeks would be all over Moses and as a super eff player. If people like mystic could understand the impact the GOAT off rebounder has on teams strategy and how the loss of fast break pts directly because of Moses effects a teams FG% and PPG maybe they could understand the def impact Moses Malone could have.

Or maybe they could just watch him play??

[bastillon]

Moses Malone was the best player in the NBA during a time in which the last 12MVP winners as well as 6 of next 7 MVP winners were playing. Every MVP winner from 1971-1990 except MJ were in the NBA when Moses won his last MVP.

Moses was never the best player in the league. Magic, Bird, Kareem, Dr J were all significantly better and players like Gervin or Isiah have a decent case against Moses as well.

Moses Malone would not face anywhere near the talent in 2012 that he faced in the early 80s. He would be like MJ playing in the 60s or Shaq in the ABA.

right, because center position was so stacked when Moses played. this is why Dan Roundfield and Jack Sikma were making all-defensive teams from C position. 80s were horribly poor in terms of quality Cs. those guys had no business even getting consideration for that selection. they wouldn't make any defensive team with Ewings, Hakeems and Robinsons.

If TS% took into account offensive rebs of your own shots the adv stat geeks would be all over Moses and as a super eff player. If people like mystic could understand the impact the GOAT off rebounder has on teams strategy and how the loss of fast break pts directly because of Moses effects a teams FG% and PPG maybe they could understand the def impact Moses Malone could have.

none of that is reflected in the results. you're making stuff up. Moses crashing offensive board had horrible impact on team defense. this is why Moses usually played on terrible defensive teams in Houston, despite actually playing with solid defenders on the team.

[Texas Chuck]

Thats well and good. I didnt knock Moses at all. Guy was obv a beast. My point is by labeling Dirk a "stretch 4" you show an ignorence of his extremely complete offensive game which seems shockingly impossible. If I was choosing between Moses and a Dirk who didnt have his complete offensive arsenel I would take Moses too. My point is that imaginary Dirk has never existed.

As far as the offesnive rebounding goes--there is obv some value to it otherwise teams would always just release everyone back on D every time they put up a shot. However against any team with a decent pg there is simply more value in having your big man back shutting down the break and setting up the defense over the relatively small chance even an elite offensive rebounder like Moses gets the ball back. It doesnt even require all of Mystic's stats. Common sense tells you that. I mean just look at the teams that have led the league in offensive rebounding lately---Other than outliers Chicago and to a lesser extent LAL its mostly mediocre to bad teams. Meanwhile SAS,Miami,Bos,DAl have consistently been at the bottom. Note that they share two things in common: winning big and defense.

[kasino]

Championship teams always have good to great offensive rebounders

12--Bosh/turiaf/haslem/anthony/lebron
11--haywood/chandler/ian/marion
10--bynum/gasol/odom
09--odom/gasol/bynum/powell
08--powe/davis/perkins/kg/brown
07--duncan/frabrico/franscisco
06--Shaq/haslem/zo
05--Nazr/duncan/rasho/horry
04--Ben/Okur/Rasheed
03--duncan/rose/drob
02--shaq/george/horry
01--shaq/grant/horry/george

offensive rebounders is pivotal to championship teams

[ahonui06]

Championship teams always have good to great offensive rebounders

12--Bosh/turiaf/haslem/anthony/lebron
11--haywood/chandler/ian/marion
10--bynum/gasol/odom
09--odom/gasol/bynum/powell
08--powe/davis/perkins/kg/brown
07--duncan/frabrico/franscisco
06--Shaq/haslem/zo
05--Nazr/duncan/rasho/horry
04--Ben/Okur/Rasheed
03--duncan/rose/drob
02--shaq/george/horry
01--shaq/grant/horry/george

offensive rebounders is pivotal to championship teams

Listing frontcourts doesn't make them good offensive rebounders. Ian Mahinmi is one of the worst rebounders in the entire NBA, you can look it up. Offensive rebounding at a high rate usually means you're not converting on offense which isn't a good thing.

[mysticbb]

Championship teams always have good to great offensive rebounders
...
offensive rebounders is pivotal to championship teams

2012: Heat, 26.6 ORB%, 0.4 below league average, 18th in the league
2011: Mavericks, 24.1 ORB%, 2.3 below league average, 24th in the league
2008: Celtics, 26.6 ORB%, 0.1 below league average, 17th in the league
2007: Spurs, 24.2 ORB%, 2.9 below league average, 27th in the league
2006: Heat, 26.7 ORB%, 0.6 below league average, 17th in the league
2005: Spurs, 29.1 ORB%, 0.4 above league averrage, 12th in the league
2003: Spurs, 28.8 ORB%, 0.3 above league average, 13th in the league
2002: Lakers, 28.8 ORB%, 0.1 below league average, 16th in the league

The 2004 Pistons, and the 2000, 2001, 2009 and 2010 Lakers were clearly above league average in terms of ORB% ranking between 3rd and 9th in the league. But 8 of the last 13 NBA champions were either average or cleary below average offensive rebounding teams. So much for "pivotal to championship teams".

[kasino]

Championship teams always have good to great offensive rebounders

12--Bosh/turiaf/haslem/anthony/lebron
11--haywood/chandler/ian/marion
10--bynum/gasol/odom
09--odom/gasol/bynum/powell
08--powe/davis/perkins/kg/brown
07--duncan/frabrico/franscisco
06--Shaq/haslem/zo
05--Nazr/duncan/rasho/horry
04--Ben/Okur/Rasheed
03--duncan/rose/drob
02--shaq/george/horry
01--shaq/grant/horry/george

offensive rebounders is pivotal to championship teams

Listing frontcourts doesn't make them good offensive rebounders. Ian Mahinmi is one of the worst rebounders in the entire NBA, you can look it up. Offensive rebounding at a high rate usually means you're not converting on offense which isn't a good thing.

I probably should have told you their ORB% is all(including 2011 PS Ian) above 8% some going to 15% while Dirk is at 2%
so what team shots 100% that they convert all baskets? getting the offensive rebound gets them another chance

m..
is those the PS % as you used for everything else if not do those
they were all better then their opposing team

[Trey28]

moses easily.

the only thing dirk does well is score/shoot and hes not particularly epic at that anyway. career high of 26.6. there have been at least 10 guys in this era alone to surpass that high.

otherwise hes a poor defender at a very important defensive position, a mediocre rebounder, and a meh passer/play-maker.

overrated.

[Texas Chuck]

hahaha^^^ you forgot the green.

[TheKingOfVa360]

hahaha^^^ you forgot the green.

Everything he said was true

[koogiking]

Offensive rebounds are very important. The fact that the Celtics don't get any is one of the reasons why they go through big struggles offensively at times.

You need to be able to get easy baskets. You can't completely rely on jumpshooting to win. A rebounder like Moses Malone greatly helps his teams because it's another way of getting easy opportunities.

[AnaheimRoyale]

I've been a bit busy to post lately, but I find Moses to be wholly underrated on these boards, usually by advanced stat junkies, etc. The guy's impact reminds me alot of an upmarket, more consistent Barkley. Obviously a very different player of course, but his impact shouldn't be written off for ridiculous reasons like "bad D" or "stat padding". His D wasn't bad actually, he just wasn't an anchor. And as people have said, offensive rebounds are valuable, Moses wasn't getting empty stats, he was just playing a unique style that gave him more rebounds and points (a good thing).

Moses showed you could build a good team around him, the guy took a trash Rockets team to the NBA finals, knocking out the Kareem/Magic Lakers on the way, the Gervin Spurs, and then pushing the Bird Celtics to 6 games. Everyone knows how the Rockets fared when Moses left, they were sucktacular. He has 3 MVP's for a reason, he was MVP over Kareem and that wasn't a particularly disputed award to put it lightly, indeed the guy matched up great with Kareem plenty of times. He wasn't at his best by the time he went to the Hawks, but nothing that happened there really speaks decisively to his awesomeness. He was still good, and so were those Hawks teams. Moses had maybe 1 series in his prime where his team was upset (1984), and otherwise his teams all did as you expected them to.

[AnaheimRoyale]

And maybe Moses was best player in the NBA in one year (I think so), and maybe he wasn't, but it hardly matters if the guys being ranked over him were Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc, since those guys are ahead of Moses (and Dirk) anyway.