#8 Highest Peak of All Time (Magic '87 wins)

[bastillon]

Huge difference in pace, so LeBron scored on higher volume and that explains lower efficiency.

I don't see how pace matters here since LeBron had much higher usage to make up for the lower pace. it's not like Kareem couldn't score every time down the floor, the problem was that his guards were so bad that they often couldn't get the ball past the halfcourt.

Also James had to create more for himself, while KAJ partly relied on what others created for him.

on whom exactly was Kareem relying that year ? Ford ? Tatum ? Cazzie Russell ?

LeBron had a lot more help offensively. at least his teammates provided spacing and LeBron wasn't getting double teamed every time he touched the ball. Kareem didn't have the best shooters in the league to make his life easier. Mo Williams was a decent player, a guy like that could push LA over the top in '77.

[lorak]

Am I the only one that thinks Duncan has the best PS left? Next to Dr. J I can't see an argument for any others (and Dr. J gets downgraded IMO for playing in the split league era).

Lebron was top level offensively but again he wasn't good defensively.

C'monn, LeBron was in top 10 (not counting role players with low minutes played) according to defensive RAPM, on the same level as Iguodala and among perimeter players only Artest was better defensiely than James.

LJ was also 2nd in DPOTY voting. For me it means almost nothing, but for some of people in this project this means a lot.

[lorak]

[


Duncan definitely had excellent defensive help in 02 and 03...but what more can you ask that he does with that defensive help? They ended up being "best in the league" caliber defenses.

I think Duncan's defensive supporting cast is overrated. The best example is '04 season, when Spurs lost Robinson (so 2nd best defensive player in '03) and their defense improved very significantly: from -3.9 in '03 to -8.8 in '04 (best defense since Russell's teams)

[C-izMe]

Am I the only one that thinks Duncan has the best PS left? Next to Dr. J I can't see an argument for any others (and Dr. J gets downgraded IMO for playing in the split league era).

Lebron was top level offensively but again he wasn't good defensively.

C'monn, LeBron was in top 10 (not counting role players with low minutes played) according to defensive RAPM, on the same level as Iguodala and among perimeter players only Artest was better defensiely than James.

LJ was also 2nd in DPOTY voting. For me it means almost nothing, but for some of people in this project this means a lot.

And in the PS he played bad defense. Telling me about his regular season means nothing.



And with Magic he played nobody. He was amazing though (defense is an issue too).

[lorak]

Am I the only one that thinks Duncan has the best PS left? Next to Dr. J I can't see an argument for any others (and Dr. J gets downgraded IMO for playing in the split league era).

Lebron was top level offensively but again he wasn't good defensively.

C'monn, LeBron was in top 10 (not counting role players with low minutes played) according to defensive RAPM, on the same level as Iguodala and among perimeter players only Artest was better defensiely than James.

LJ was also 2nd in DPOTY voting. For me it means almost nothing, but for some of people in this project this means a lot.

And in the PS he played bad defense.

Any proof? Or you, like bastillon, relying only on selected plays while at the same time ignoring others?

[bastillon]

[


Duncan definitely had excellent defensive help in 02 and 03...but what more can you ask that he does with that defensive help? They ended up being "best in the league" caliber defenses.

I think Duncan's defensive supporting cast is overrated. The best example is '04 season, when Spurs lost Robinson (so 2nd best defensive player in '03) and their defense improved very significantly: from -3.9 in '03 to -8.8 in '04 (best defense since Russell's teams)

check out Robinson's defensive RAPM as well as this viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1162485

Here is some +/- data from 01-03 since we now have the data for Robinson's last 3 seasons.

Overall Spurs: 98.80 D rating, .491 TS%

D Rob:
On court: 95.88 D rating, .478 TS%
Off court: 102.08 D rating, .506 TS%
+6.2 D rating, +2.8 TS% difference

Duncan:
On court: 97.51 D rating, .484 TS%
Off court: 104.31 D rating, 522 TS%
+6.8 D rating, +3.8 TS%

DRob/Duncan together on court:
94.99 D rating, .474 TS%

Duncan on court,Drob off:
100.41 D rating
.496 TS%

Drob on court, Duncan off:
99.91 D rating
.495 TS%

No D rob or Duncan on court:
108.79 D rating
.549 TS%

Bruce Bowen:
On court: 97.72 D rating, .488 TS%
Off court: 99.4 D rating, .493 TS%

Spurs 03 were better defense than Spurs 04, they just didn't try that hard in the RS. 03 Spurs were one of the GOAT playoff defenses though. Pop's choice probably to save the old dogs for D-Rob's last PS run.

[colts18]

Which I pointed out, and the T'Wolves supporting cast was still more efficient offensively than the Spurs supporting cast.

And Cassell played 16 out of 18 playoff games, so it's not like he was gone for the whole playoffs.

Cassell was hobbling during the entire WCFs and got injured like midway through WCSFs. Cassell was basically the only good offensive player alongside KG that year so that had a huge impact. merely "pointing it out" is not enough. consider this:
05 Wolves w/out Cassell were -1.5 SRS (33g) +2.8 w/Cassell

the fact that Olowokandi/Hassell/Szczerbiak/Spree/Darrick Martin were more efficient than Parker/Manu/S-Jax/D-Rob/Malik Rose/Bowen speaks volumes about KG's abilities as a playmaker. as a matter of fact Garnett was actually playing point for long stretches of 04 WCFs. Duncan's supporting cast is getting underrated here.

I'm not really going to break it down any further than box score stats, but per 36:

why per36 ? we're not trying to measure their efficiency but overall production. nice try though. Garnett played better vs the Lakers both times. the difference was Duncan often had his guards to bail him out as it seemed someone would always step up and score 20+ on great efficiency. Garnett didn't get that kind of help in 04, particularly with Cassell hobbling or being out.

Duncan was better vs. the Lakers because he played better defense. He was one of the best Shaq defenders ever. KG couldn't guard Shaq which is why his team lost. Duncan could and its no coincidence his teams were the only ones who beat Shaq/Kobe from 99-03.

02: Shaq had 21.4 PPG on 44.7 FG%. Probably Shaq's worst offensive series ever. Thats all on Duncan.

[C-izMe]

Any proof? Or you, like bastillon, relying only on selected plays while at the same time ignoring others?

His DRTG was bad and the team was destroyed defensively. Last I checked he led that defense.

[Josephpaul]

Wow, no love for Magic's '87 season? This was one of the GOAT teams. It was the greatest offense ever (highest rated offense in both the RS and PS -- EVER), led by Magic who not only picked up his scoring but still got everyone else involved just the same. He tore through the regular season winning his first MVP award and capped it off by beating his arch rival in the NBA Finals to secure yet another Finals MVP award. Is there any question that Magic's Finals performance was one of the greatest ever?

The articles posted by ThaRegul8r in an earlier thread were also praising Magic for his defense. I'm kind of surprised that his '87 season hasn't gotten more traction.


Regular Season (Lakers 65-17)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PER   WS 
==================================================================
Magic  80  36.3  23.9  .602   6.3  12.2  1.7  0.5  3.8  27.0  15.9

Team Offense: Lakers (1st, 115.6 oRtg)
Team Defense: Lakers (7th, 106.5 dRtg)

Playoffs (Lakers 15-3)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PER   WS 
==================================================================
Magic  18  37.0  21.8  .607   7.7  12.2  1.7  0.4  2.8  26.2  3.7

Team Offense: Lakers (1st, 119.9 oRtg)
Team Defense: Lakers (4th, 108.6 dRtg)

1st Round (Lakers 3, Nuggets 0)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  3   32.0  17.7  .646   7.3  14.3  0.7  0.7  2.0

WCSF (Lakers 4, Warriors 1)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  5   36.0  20.6  .638   8.0  10.8  1.4  0.2  3.4

WCF (Lakers 4, Sonics 0)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  4   38.5  19.8  .580   7.3  11.0  2.0  0.5  3.8

NBA Finals (Lakers over Celtics, 4-2)

Code: Select all

       GP  MP    PTS   TS%    REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV
======================================================
Magic  6   39.3  26.2  .590   8.0  13.0  2.3  0.3  2.2

Note that Magic also hit the game-winning shot in Game 4 at Boston, one of the most memorable game-winners in NBA history.

[bastillon]

Malik Rose was defending Shaq in 02 when D-Rob was out. Duncan never defended Shaq for more than couple possessions or on mismatches. weren't you the one who praised D-Rob as "the best Shaq defender ever" ?

[Josephpaul]

Voting for 87 magic here , back on lebron he had a better season in 2012. Still not convinced 09 his PEAK year , in fact I think he will hit a peak this year

[colts18]

Malik Rose was defending Shaq in 02 when D-Rob was out. Duncan never defended Shaq for more than couple possessions or on mismatches. weren't you the one who praised D-Rob as "the best Shaq defender ever" ?

No. I actually went through the tape and found out who was guarding Shaq from 01-03. I watched a majority of the playoff games from 01-03:

vs. Duncan: 21-49 (.429), 8 TOV (5 of them charges/offensive fouls drawn)

vs. Robinson: 31-63 (.492), 5 TOV (1 offensive foul)

vs. Rose: 15-27 (.556), 2 TOV (2 offensive fouls)

vs. Other big men (Bryant, Willis, Walker): 6-12, 1 TOV (1 offensive foul)


Now here are the stats for who was guarding Shaq in the games Duncan/Robinson played (Robinson missed 1 of the games):

Duncan 31.0%
Robinson 46.9%
Rose 19.3%
Willis 2.1%
Walker 0.7%

Duncan was the guy mostly guarding Shaq when DRob left the game. Thats true in 2002 when DRob was injured. In the games I charted, I had Duncan on Shaq on 51.6% of the possessions a player was guarding Shaq in the 2002 playoffs.

[semi-sentient]

Yep, it was mostly Robinson and Malik. Duncan was successful in defending him as well but he was only on Shaq for small stretches. Saying it was all Duncan is quite false.

Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2

[C-izMe]

Voting for 87 magic here , back on lebron he had a better season in 2012. Still not convinced 09 his PEAK year , in fact I think he will hit a peak this year

Your sig

God I hate the Lakers.

[colts18]

Yep, it was mostly Robinson and Malik. Duncan was successful in defending him as well but he was only on Shaq for small stretches. Saying it was all Duncan is quite false.

Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2

I watched the majority of the 01-03 playoff games and charted them. Duncan was the majority in 02. Overall, Duncan was the most effective at guarding Shaq results wise. Shaq dunked on everyone, but he wasn't physically overpowering duncan.

[Josephpaul]

Voting for 87 magic here , back on lebron he had a better season in 2012. Still not convinced 09 his PEAK year , in fact I think he will hit a peak this year

Your sig

God I hate the Lakers.

God doesn't !

[lorak]

Spurs 03 were better defense than Spurs 04, they just didn't try that hard in the RS. 03 Spurs were one of the GOAT playoff defenses though. Pop's choice probably to save the old dogs for D-Rob's last PS run.

I don't buy that kind of explanation. Difference between '03 and '04 defense is too big.

BTW, they care enough to won 60 games in '03...

[lorak]

Any proof? Or you, like bastillon, relying only on selected plays while at the same time ignoring others?

His DRTG was bad and the team was destroyed defensively. Last I checked he led that defense.

Yeah, and he was responsible for covering all Magic's 3point shooters and Dwight at the same time... please, be serious.

[GrangerDanger]

Any proof? Or you, like bastillon, relying only on selected plays while at the same time ignoring others?

His DRTG was bad and the team was destroyed defensively. Last I checked he led that defense.

Yeah, and he was responsible for covering all Magic's 3point shooters and Dwight at the same time... please, be serious.

He was. After game 3 he said he wished he could clone himself so he could guard everyone and always have the ball. He wanted that kind of responsibility, so all the failure falls on him. Had he been a team player the Cavs would have won, but instead he played hero ball and wanted to look like he could play defense, but at that stage of his career he was still a liability

[colts18]

Yeah, and he was responsible for covering all Magic's 3point shooters and Dwight at the same time... please, be serious.

Those same people who are bashing LeBron for not helping enough on Howard would bash him even more if Alston, Hedo, or Pietrus were shooting open 3's all game because LeBron was helping on Howard. As I said before, theres not much help you can do when the oppponent is 3 feet from the basket