#15 Highest Peak of All Time (Kobe '08 wins)

[Lightning25]

Wade had back spasms for the half the series against the Hawks, http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2009-0 ... lstra-heat

It might be another reason to take Kobe then, durability. Durability matters. Yao is one of my favorite players of all-time but he could never stay healthy which is why he isn't considered as great as he actually was. Wade wasn't as injury prone or as bad as Yao was but he was injury prone and you can't really help a team if you aren't playing at your usual level or if you are in the sideline with your suit.

Also, FG% doesn't do a better job of showing efficiency than TS% and I'm sure we all know that by now. Wade posted a 57% TS with back spasms half the series.

I take both into consideration. Having a low FG% could still hurt your team due to allowing transition points and the Hawks were a really good transition team if I recall correctly with all of their athleticism. So TS% isn't the only way and it isn't the only important measurement to determine scoring efficiency and what helps or hurts your team from winning.

09 Wade's roster consisted of 2 rookies, 2 sophomores, a D-league player,hobbled Jermaine Oneal and Haslem with a rookie coach compared to arguably the greatest coach of all time. 06 Kobe's roster was also putrid but there's no doubt in my mind that as immature as Odom was, Wade would still take him over any player he had in 09 PERIOD.

Kobe had a more top heavy roster/team but Wade had more depth.

Kobe had the 2nd best player but Wade probably had the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. best player. Do you want a guy with a decent sidekick and nothing more? or do you want a guy with no sidekick but decent role players? I personally prefer the latter.

Lamar averaged 15ppg 9rpg 5apg 1spg 1bpg on 48% shooting 37% 3pt shooting and 56% TS in the regular season and 19 and 11 5 1.1bpg in the playoffs and was just a more reliable 2nd option compared to Jermaine who missed the last two games and averaged 13 and 4 for the 5 games he played in.

Lamar was great in the 2006 playoffs but the Lakers gameplan was to slow down the game and have the post-up players beat them which is why Lamar put up the numbers he did. Plus, they played the Suns defense and we all know how terrible they were defensively which is why everyone on the Lakers played great in the post-season.

[therealbig3]

@bastillon

According to RAPM, Michael Curry in 03 and 04 was actually a good defender, who was a horrendous offensive player.

He seemed to be similar to someone like Jason Collins...a negative impact player offensively who only got playing time because of his defense.

there is no amount of stats to convince me that Curry was a good defender. I have Pistons 03 entire postseason run on my PC, Curry was playing terrible defense against TMac.

I've re-watched that entire series too, and from what I've seen, Curry drove T-Mac into the help a lot, T-Mac just beat the help...and his passing when he got doubled and tripled was awesome too.

And I never tried to put the whole blame on Kobe for 04, btw, I absolutely agree that the rest of the team outside of Shaq sucked, and in fact, I don't think Kobe was the biggest culprit. But he struggled a lot against Prince as well, so it seems weird that T-Mac struggling against Prince is considered some horrible thing.

[bastillon]

But it's the same thing people use against LeBron in 2010, when he "flamed out" in the final 3 games of the playoffs and "cost" his team the series. But I remember even you disagreed with that, and you said LeBron 2010 was better than LeBron 2009. So why is it different here? Why should 03 T-Mac's last 3 games count so much, but it's ok to overlook LeBron's play in the 2010 playoffs?

Prince was an elite defender then...rookies can't be elite man defenders (Shumpert, Bradley)? He was physically gifted (athletic and long) and was a part of a great team defense. And again, he's the same guy who locked down Kobe the next year too (as "only" a 2nd year player).

And we should just ignore the fact that T-Mac went for 36 ppg on 63% TS through the first 4 games?

ignore ? no. take into serious consideration ? absolutely. TMac's play against Prince matters a lot because he's being compared with guys who could dominate against top notch postseason defenses, something McGrady was never able to do.

and Prince didn't lock down Kobe... that's ridiculous. Kobe could get by Prince everyday-allday. Pistons team defense swarmed Bryant with tons of help defense and triple teams on every drive to the basket. you need to re-watch those finals before making those claims. everyone on their roster was dedicated to stopping Kobe from going off. more importantly, it's team defense that matters more and Pistons 03 were merely a good defensive team... Pistons 04 were arguably the best defense of all-time. you're facing that kind of defensive pressure in the peak year of defensive rules, against the best defensive team ever and getting swarmed by everybody because 3-12 that roster didn't deserve to be in the d-league, bad things are gonna happen. you can't compare TMac 03 and Kobe 04, entirely different environment.

next thing you know someone's gonna start bringing up Ray Allen as Kobe stopper. lmao.

[therealbig3]

How did he do in the last 3 games? The entire series matters, not just the first something games or the last something games. It helped them get a 3-1 lead but he wasn't good enough to maintain it for the next 3 games to help his team win the series which is why they lost.

Exactly my point. I don't like the idea of splitting up which games to look at. For the whole series, T-Mac averaged, per 36:

25.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 3.0 TOpg, 56.1% TS (+4.2%)

Another thing that gets ignored, T-Mac did this against one of the toughest eras for perimeter players...he was +4.5% over league average TS% in 03...neither Kobe nor Wade have done that...and then you consider that he turned it over less than they did, and he was a better passer...I think it's clear he was a touch better offensively than either one.

[bastillon]

I've re-watched that entire series too, and from what I've seen, Curry drove T-Mac into the help a lot, T-Mac just beat the help...and his passing when he got doubled and tripled was awesome too.

And I never tried to put the whole blame on Kobe for 04, btw, I absolutely agree that the rest of the team outside of Shaq sucked, and in fact, I don't think Kobe was the biggest culprit. But he struggled a lot against Prince as well, so it seems weird that T-Mac struggling against Prince is considered some horrible thing.

"drove into help" ? you mean he got beat off the dribble in a split second ? TMac's first step was phenomenal but Curry wasn't presenting any sort of challenge.

second, TMac struggling against Prince is a knock on him. because he wasn't getting gangraped by entire squad of the best defensive team ever with gameplan designed to stop him specifically. TMac was a great player and he made some ridiculous plays in that series but he didn't prove anything either. he didn't dominate against great defensive team or anything, once Prince sat on him TMac really struggled.

why am I defending Bryant and not doing the same for TMac ? first of all, Bryant faced a lot stronger Pistons defense, more defensive minded and Larry Brown made it his mission to stop him. even Shaq was guarded man to man. number two, more importantly, Bryant is getting criticized for this series as "team cancer", "notorious chucker", "shot his team out of the finals" etc. TMac is getting praised as top peak of all-time. so I'm only defending Bryant because I'm holding him to different standards. in reality though Bryant's performance was still poor and TMac played very well overall. but it was a lot closer than you might've thought, all things considered.

[Lightning25]

Another thing that gets ignored, T-Mac did this against one of the toughest eras for perimeter players...he was +4.5% over league average TS% in 03...neither Kobe nor Wade have done that...and then you consider that he turned it over less than they did, and he was a better passer...I think it's clear he was a touch better offensively than either one.

Sadly, there is this other aspect called defense, and that is where the true separation between Kobe/Wade and Mcgrady lies. McGrady is a comparable offensive player, sure, but when it comes to defense, rebounding, and intangibles, Wade and Kobe win by a very good margin.

I actually think Kobe and Wade were still better offensively but it is comparable.

[Lightning25]

there is no amount of stats to convince me that Curry was a good defender. I have Pistons 03 entire postseason run on my PC, Curry was playing terrible defense against TMac.

Do you know where I can watch/download the 03 Magic/Pistons series? I actually want to re-watch that series to see Orlando Tmac again especially 2003 Tmac. I am sure there are highlights of those games especially with McGrady but I'm looking for the full series/games.

[therealbig3]

T-Mac never faced a super-elite defense in his prime though, so saying he couldn't play well against them is just speculation...he did play against 3 "good", top 10 defensive teams between 01-05.

vs 02 Hornets: 24.9 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.4 apg, 2.6 TOpg, 55.3% TS (+3.3%)

vs 03 Pistons: 25.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 3.0 TOpg, 56.1% TS (+4.2%)

vs 05 Mavericks: 25.7 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.6 apg, 3.1 TOpg, 55.6% TS (+2.7%)

[ElGee]

@bast I have Thurmond closer to 35th, so this is incredibly premature, but you can save this for later:

Thurmond 1967 (65g) In +4.6 SRS Out -5.1
Thurmond 1968 (51g) In +2.7 SRS Out -6.3
Thurmond 1969 (9g sample) In +0.3 SRS Out -5.6 (control for Mullins in)
Thurmond 1970 (31g sample) In -3.0 SRS Out -7.0 SRS (control for Mullins and Lucas in)

Note: Bill Sharman was the team's coach in 1967 and 1968.

Fun fact: In 1967, Barry averaged over 40 points per game from Feb 4 to March 4. The Warriors lost 3 of those first 4 with Thurmond (-4 MOV) before Nate was injured. In the next 12g with Thurmond out, Barry averaged 39.3 ppg and the team went 5-7 (-3.1 MOV). His backups, Fred Hetzel and Clyde Lee, played every game.

[bastillon]

Another thing that gets ignored, T-Mac did this against one of the toughest eras for perimeter players...he was +4.5% over league average TS% in 03...neither Kobe nor Wade have done that...and then you consider that he turned it over less than they did, and he was a better passer...I think it's clear he was a touch better offensively than either one.

Sadly, there is this other aspect called defense, and that is where the true separation between Kobe/Wade and Mcgrady lies. McGrady is a comparable offensive player, sure, but when it comes to defense, rebounding, and intangibles, Wade and Kobe win by a very good margin.

I actually think Kobe and Wade were still better offensively but it is comparable.

I'm arguing against TMac and even for me it sounds like a baseless statement. TMac was just as good as Kobe/Wade when he was locked in defensively and it's not like either one of those guys could've maintained their defensive intensity all game.

How did he do in the last 3 games? The entire series matters, not just the first something games or the last something games. It helped them get a 3-1 lead but he wasn't good enough to maintain it for the next 3 games to help his team win the series which is why they lost.

Exactly my point. I don't like the idea of splitting up which games to look at. For the whole series, T-Mac averaged, per 36:

25.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 3.0 TOpg, 56.1% TS (+4.2%)

it's not about "splitting series", it's about facing a capable defender. if TMac was struggling because of his shooting randomly being cold, I could understand why it wouldn't make sense to split the series. but we're comparing skillsets here and not being able to dominate against top defenses is a pretty big concern. I remember TMac often struggling vs the likes of KG, Artest, Prince, Bowen etc. these are all phenomenal defenders but I think Kobe was performing better against that type of players. I feel like TMac was abusing poor defensive teams and struggling vs elite defenses. Mystic's data kind of proves my point. TMac's skillset was spectacular but not exactly what you would wanna do vs elite playoff defense.

[bastillon]

@bast I have Thurmond closer to 35th, so this is incredibly premature, but you can save this for later:

Thurmond 1967 (65g) In +4.6 SRS Out -5.1
Thurmond 1968 (51g) In +2.7 SRS Out -6.3
Thurmond 1969 (9g sample) In +0.3 SRS Out -5.6 (control for Mullins in)
Thurmond 1970 (31g sample) In -3.0 SRS Out -7.0 SRS (control for Mullins and Lucas in)

Note: Bill Sharman was the team's coach in 1967 and 1968.

Fun fact: In 1967, Barry averaged over 40 points per game from Feb 4 to March 4. The Warriors lost 3 of those first 4 with Thurmond (-4 MOV) before Nate was injured. In the next 12g with Thurmond out, Barry averaged 39.3 ppg and the team went 5-7 (-3.1 MOV). His backups, Fred Hetzel and Clyde Lee, played every game.

I was aware of those (you posted them in top100 project). but what about the other years ? Thurmond was missing a lot of time almost every year so it'd be cool to get the data from those other years as well. particularly with splits of offense/defense. I have a feeling Thurmond was a net negative player offensively so his defense must've been pretty spectacular to make up for that and then some.

[therealbig3]

Yes, but you can pretty much find a 3 game stretch from anyone during which they played poorly. It's a small sample size, and putting it in context, T-Mac shouldn't have even been dominating a good defensive team like that in the first place, with the supporting cast he had.

09 Kobe in his last 3 games against Orlando: 31/7/5 with 3 TOpg and 51% TS. This is against an Orlando team that let Wade and LeBron destroy them, and isn't all that different from T-Mac's 26/8/5 with 4 TOpg and 46% TS, especially when you consider differences in rule changes and supporting cast.

[Dr Positivity]

I think Wade, Tmac, West are my next 3 votes in some order. All 3 are just about at that 'sacred' level for perimeter players where you've got the scoring via driving/shooting, passing, and defense. I like 66 West as his representative. 68 West has a decent case because of his efficiency, but 66 West is right behind it as his 2nd most efficient playoff year, at a higher volume - plus a quick look at his boxscore numbers against the Celtics make 66 look a little more impressive with a few 40 point explosions and seemingly better close-out game, though I'd like to hear ThaRegular's thoughts on which Finals West was better in. Furthermore 66 West being healthier in the RS is not completely irrelevant, it is important for teams to have a higher playoff seeding and HCA

[Lightning25]

I'm arguing against TMac and even for me it sounds like a baseless statement. TMac was just as good as Kobe/Wade when he was locked in defensively and it's not like either one of those guys could've maintained their defensive intensity all game.

Tmac was a good of a man to man defender when he was locked in defensively but there is this thing called help defense which is even more important and makes more of an impact defensively and McGrady was never good at that aspect whether he was locked in or not. McGrady was just not a very good overall defender and it's even worse that he coasted a lot of times.

[bastillon]

there is no amount of stats to convince me that Curry was a good defender. I have Pistons 03 entire postseason run on my PC, Curry was playing terrible defense against TMac.

Do you know where I can watch/download the 03 Magic/Pistons series? I actually want to re-watch that series to see Orlando Tmac again especially 2003 Tmac. I am sure there are highlights of those games especially with McGrady but I'm looking for the full series/games.

I've been downloading games from sport-scene.net, I can send you an invite if you give me your e-mail.

[bastillon]

I'm arguing against TMac and even for me it sounds like a baseless statement. TMac was just as good as Kobe/Wade when he was locked in defensively and it's not like either one of those guys could've maintained their defensive intensity all game.

Tmac was a good of a man to man defender when he was locked in defensively but there is this thing called help defense which is even more important and makes more of an impact defensively and McGrady was never good at that aspect whether he was locked in or not. McGrady was just not a very good overall defender and it's even worse that he coasted a lot of times.

I passionately disagree. TMac was a great help defender. think of Kevin Durant with more athleticism and higher basketball IQ. TMac was capable of playing some great defense in his physical prime. dude came to the league known as a defensive specialist. I actually think help defense is where he thrived. as a man defender there were better players though TMac was very versatile and could pretty much guard 1-4, though mostly without elite players included. defensive versatility is extremely important in terms of building a good team defense. you can't really find a lot of players who would be some sort of a mismatch for TMac. TMac wasn't a defensive stopper per se but his versatility and length made him a potentially valuable asset to his teams.

Yes, but you can pretty much find a 3 game stretch from anyone during which they played poorly. It's a small sample size, and putting it in context, T-Mac shouldn't have even been dominating a good defensive team like that in the first place, with the supporting cast he had.

09 Kobe in his last 3 games against Orlando: 31/7/5 with 3 TOpg and 51% TS. This is against an Orlando team that let Wade and LeBron destroy them, and isn't all that different from T-Mac's 26/8/5 with 4 TOpg and 46% TS, especially when you consider differences in rule changes and supporting cast.

TMac's supporting cast was very poor overall but in terms of spacing the floor (and it's really the only thing relevant in this comparison) they were pretty good. and again, I'm not cherry picking TMac's 3 bad games to make him look worse. I'm splitting the series because there was a major change in defensive strategy. TMac couldn't do crap against Prince. simple as that. overall numbers don't tell the whole story because Orlando got blown out in the last 3 games. what's relevant here is his performance vs Prince that I'm critical of. he was a lot worse than those numbers suggest because he was also scoring a lot on Michael Curry. Prince wasn't playing the type of mins that he would be playing against Kobe, for example. if Prince was on him all series, we might be likely looking at sub-40% FG series. it was that bad. seriously, go ahead and watch the games; my memory rarely fails me when it comes to these things. Prince even managed to block some 3pters from TMac

[Lightning25]

I've been downloading games from sport-scene.net, I can send you an invite if you give me your e-mail.

My email is (confirmed, thanks) , thanks if you are willing to do this, I appreciate it, I've heard of this site before.

T-Mac never faced a super-elite defense in his prime though, so saying he couldn't play well against them is just speculation...he did play against 3 "good", top 10 defensive teams between 01-05.

vs 02 Hornets: 24.9 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.4 apg, 2.6 TOpg, 55.3% TS (+3.3%)

vs 03 Pistons: 25.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 3.0 TOpg, 56.1% TS (+4.2%)

vs 05 Mavericks: 25.7 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.6 apg, 3.1 TOpg, 55.6% TS (+2.7%)

I'm more than positive I've addressed the 05 Mavericks. They were not a very good defensive team and it seemed like just about every star would light them up. You can even check out Yao Ming's numbers in that 2005 series because they were abnormally amazing.

As for the 02 Hornets? I believe he flamed out in a lot of those 4th quarters. It was actually a winnable series for the Magic to be quite honest. Jamal Mashburn was out for the Hornets in that series but this is besides the point since Tmac's peak was clearly 03, and not 02 or 05.

[Lightning25]

I passionately disagree. TMac was a great help defender. think of Kevin Durant with more athleticism and higher basketball IQ. TMac was capable of playing some great defense in his physical prime. dude came to the league known as a defensive specialist. I actually think help defense is where he thrived. as a man defender there were better players though TMac was very versatile and could pretty much guard 1-4, though mostly without elite players included. defensive versatility is extremely important in terms of building a good team defense..

I'm really not sure where you are basing that Tmac was a great help defender from.

I've never heard articles, quotes, or anything about Tmac's help defense. I've heard people praise him for his defense on Glenn Robinson in 01 playoffs and Dirk Nowitzki in 05 playoffs but that is man to man defense.

When it came to help defense, he wasn't too good, mainly because he was lazy and coasted a ton. I've watched a ton of McGrady since watching the NBA and he was a very inactive defender which is a bad thing especially for help defense because it requires a ton of activity and focus which were two things that Mcgrady struggled with.

Another thing people probably ignore about Tmac is that he wouldn't really box-out for his rebounds and because of that he would give up a lot of offensive rebounds. I know he put up decent rebounding numbers but he would also allow a lot due to the fact that he wouldn't box-out, probably because he was afraid of contact and/or hurting his delicate back.

Maybe this wasn't the case with Orlando McGrady (memory is a bit bleak), but it surely was with Houston McGrady because I saw about 200+ games when McGrady was in Houston. It is why I do want to see more full game footages of Orlando McGrady again to really remember what he was like.

[Expert-Sizzle]

Shaq's performance was as bad as Kobe's. he couldn't dominate Ben Wallace and Elden Campbell man to man, unthinkable in his prime. he was getting worse and worse as the series went on. his defense was one of the main reasons why Payton couldn't guard Billups. Payton is an overrated defender overall but he wasn't that bad. Kobe played like trash on offense because he kept turning the ball over and couldn't hit a basket from outside but at least he played elite defense (basically firefighter switching to Billups/Rip, whoever got hot) and drew great defensive attention. the rest of the team deserves a lot of blame for those finals as well.

How was Shaq's performance as bad as Kobe's... I don't think I have ever heard a more ridiculous statement.
Also coming from someone who watched that series more then once saying Kobe was constantly triple teamed or that Detroit guarded Shaq exclusively with single coverage couldn't be farther from the truth.

Shaq dominated in 3/5 games and only had one "bad game" so I don't know why you are putting down his performance's. Outside of 1 game Detroit had little to no success slowing him down offensively.
They lost two games where he put up 34 / 11 on 80%TS and 36 / 20 on 76% shooting.

They did pressure Kobe and I agree they double/tripled him when he drove into the paint but that doesn't excuse his ridiculously poor shot selection and selfishness.
He frequently forced bad shots instead of feeding Shaq or passing out to an open man.
Big stars get heavy defensive attention... I don't understand how that you can use that as an excuse for poor play.
Do you think that Detroit in 03 didn't double/triple team T-Mac?

[bastillon]

yeah, personally I think TMac could be realistically criticized for his 02 postseason performance. he played well but it was very much a winnable series. that's when Baron Davis went crazy with some absurd triple double stats. Baron, btw, is extremely underrated. when healthy dude was better than prime Jason Kidd IMO.