Build around KG or DIRK?

[MisterWestside]

Wow. Id love to see if anyone else agrees with you in that regard. I think the star makes the team not the team makes the star. But maybe Im on an island here. Would love to hear some non-pro KG guys on this one.

Actually, stars AND their teammates (along with coaches, personnel and management) make the team. Which is something you're overlooking here. You can put a HoF player on your team; without the talent around him, the fit of talent around him, and proper coaching to put it all together they're not winning titles.

This has nothing to do with being "pro-KG"; it's a basic truth in team sports.

No team is winning a title without stars.

And I'm saying it's not enough to just have a "star" on your team. See Dirk from 99-10.

[Texas Chuck]

your last statement I think shows how little you get. Nothing guarentees you a title. What you want is to be a contender every year. Dirk has done that most of his career. You have to play well in the PS or catch a big break or have a guy lose his mind. Dallas caught no breaks as they had a ridic tough road in 2011 but the whole team played well together and every individual had moments of contribution and then of course there was Dirk's epic run.

2006 kinda proves where you miss the point. That wasnt a finals team. But Dirk went crazy and Manu lost his brain for a second and they capitalized. But those werent good fitting role players like 2011. That was just epic Dirk. Who ran into epicer Wade and admittedly Dirk didnt have a finals up to his own ridiculously high PS standards.

[JordansBulls]

Wow. Id love to see if anyone else agrees with you in that regard. I think the star makes the team not the team makes the star. But maybe Im on an island here. Would love to hear some non-pro KG guys on this one.

The NBA is a star driven league. No team is winning a title without stars. It's no coincidence the Bobcats and Wizards aren't winning games.

John Wall may become a star in the NBA.

[ahonui06]

And I'm saying it's not enough to just have a "star" on your team. See Dirk from 99-10.

See DIRK in 2011. Your team needs a star to win.

[JordansBulls]

And I'm saying it's not enough to just have a "star" on your team. See Dirk from 99-10.

Put it this way, how far is your team likely to get in the playoffs or do in the season without having a star player?

[MisterWestside]

Put it this way, how far is your team likely to get in the playoffs or do in the season without having a star player?

To recap for clarity: the usual posters (ahouni06) want to put it on KG that he didn't win a title/playoff series in Minny, and I'm simply reminding them that individuals do not win games in a team sport. Nowhere did I say that teams don't need their star player in the lineup.

[MisterWestside]

2006 kinda proves where you miss the point. That wasnt a finals team. But Dirk went crazy and Manu lost his brain for a second and they capitalized. But those werent good fitting role players like 2011. That was just epic Dirk. Who ran into epicer Wade and admittedly Dirk didnt have a finals up to his own ridiculously high PS standards.

You're right; Dirk didn't play with the best fitting team in 2006 as he did in 2011, which is why I actually put that run over his '11 run. I also thought that overall for the playoffs that he was better than Wade. But notice how I rate him so highly despite him not winning a title. That's because I don't players by titles, which takes a team effort.

Just like I don't put KG's "inability" to win a title/playoff series in Minny for the same reason.

[Dr Pepper]

Put it this way, how far is your team likely to get in the playoffs or do in the season without having a star player?

To recap for clarity: the usual posters (ahouni06) want to put it on KG that he didn't win a title/playoff series in Minny, and I'm simply reminding them that individuals do not win games in a team sport. Nowhere did I say that teams don't need their star player in the lineup.

Just like I don't put KG's "inability" to win a title/playoff series in Minny for the same reason.

While I understand your point, I'd just like to clarify. Not only was KG a lacking no.1 option in the playoffs (kind of like David Robinson, but KG has a lower playoffs TS% than Drob in the playoffs in their pre-Duncan/Celtics days), but arguably the more damning thing against KG is that he didn't even lead his team to the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.

Whereas Dirk has basically been a perennial 50 wins/playoffs star in the wild West, while leading different rosters. That's a lot of playoffs money being lost, and a lot of money being spent on KG in the process

[MisterWestside]

Not only was KG a lacking no.1 option in the playoffs (kind of like David Robinson, but KG has a lower playoffs TS% than Drob in the playoffs in their pre-Duncan/Celtics days), but arguably the more damning thing against KG is that he didn't even lead his team to the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.

05 Minny had players whining about their contracts, coaching changes and lack of lineup continuity. 06-07 Minny put the HoF and "team-first" legend Ricky Davis in the lineup (traded for Wally) as KG's sidekick -- and he was easily the 2nd best player on the squad

That's not a playoff team. That's a great player stuck in basketball limbo until he got to Boston.

[ardee]

And obviously DIRK is more of an ideal player to build around as evidenced by his title as the man. You can't build around KG because he isn't a closer and can't take over games down the stretch.

You can't even make 1(!) post without blatantly contradicting another stance you have.

Exactly. Whatever happened to his other favorite, a certain Bill Russell?

[ardee]

Not only was KG a lacking no.1 option in the playoffs (kind of like David Robinson, but KG has a lower playoffs TS% than Drob in the playoffs in their pre-Duncan/Celtics days), but arguably the more damning thing against KG is that he didn't even lead his team to the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.

05 Minny had players whining about their contracts, coaching changes and lack of lineup continuity. 06-07 Minny put the HoF and "team-first" legend Ricky Davis in the lineup (traded for Wally) as KG's sidekick -- and he was easily the 2nd best player on the squad

That's not a playoff team. That's a great player stuck in basketball limbo until he got to Boston.

+1.

And to all the people calling out Garnett for that, two can play that game.

Guess who else missed the postseason three straight years. Oscar Robertson. During that stretch he averaged 26-6-9 on 58% TS with ridiculous in-out numbers.

Are you going to say Dirk is better then OSCAR as well?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

How many guys can transform an 20 win team into a 45 win team by themselves? Neither KG nor Dirk are good enough to do that. Luckily for Dirk most of the teams he was on would have been mediocre 40 win teams without him. The teams that KG could not get to the playoffs would have been much worse than mediocre without KG.

If you add prime MJ to last year's Bobcats how many games do they win?

Rasho Nesterovic and Chauncy Billups left the Twolves as free agents . Did they not want to resign with the Twolves? Was there a salary cap problem? Was Twolves management tight with the money? Did KG's contract make resigning them impossible? Pull Billups of the Champion Pistons and add him and Rasho to the 2004 playoff Twolves and they might win the championship in that down year with Shaq out of shape. Rasho was nothing special but I think he would of been better than 36 year old Ervin Johnson and Olowokandi. Ervin Johhson (the center) was underrated his whole career but at 36 he was almost finished and he still got more playoff minutes than Olowokandi.

[Dr Pepper]

Not only was KG a lacking no.1 option in the playoffs (kind of like David Robinson, but KG has a lower playoffs TS% than Drob in the playoffs in their pre-Duncan/Celtics days), but arguably the more damning thing against KG is that he didn't even lead his team to the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.

05 Minny had players whining about their contracts, coaching changes and lack of lineup continuity. 06-07 Minny put the HoF and "team-first" legend Ricky Davis in the lineup (traded for Wally) as KG's sidekick -- and he was easily the 2nd best player on the squad

That's not a playoff team. That's a great player stuck in basketball limbo until he got to Boston.

+1.

And to all the people calling out Garnett for that, two can play that game.

Guess who else missed the postseason three straight years. Oscar Robertson. During that stretch he averaged 26-6-9 on 58% TS with ridiculous in-out numbers.

Are you going to say Dirk is better then OSCAR as well?

Interesting that contract issues, team chemistry, and the Big O were brought up. KG's personality and teamwork off the game court arguably resembles Oscar's more than it does Dirk. KG's known to bully his own teammates, fight them, and gets shat on them through twitter just a few months ago; and the Big O was known for much of the same and wrote about how his teammates disappointed them in his books and often clashed with them openly. I wonder how much of their shortcomings were due to the franchise making an identity out of KG/Big O's personalities. Compare KG to Dirk and Duncan, and the latter are much more friendly to their teams and franchise $$$, they put the money where their mouth is unlike the trashtalking extraordinaire KG.

As for great players leading teams, it's a road that can take you down to Larry Bird's legendary turnaround as a rookie or LeBron leading the infamous Cavs above and beyond the talent on the roster especially in the regular season.

In any case when it comes to building a team around Dirk or KG: KG's poor playoffs TS% average as a Twolf (worse than pre-Duncan David Robinson IIRC), missing 3 playoffs years in his prime, gigantic contract, and leadership would arguably all be marks against KG versus Dirk. Dirk has led the Mavs to perennial 50 wins/playoffs while the Mavs played their own version of musical chairs. All the while Dirk rivaled or outplayed the best forwards in the playoffs including KG, Duncan, Gasol, and LeBron.

[ardee]

All the while Dirk rivaled or outplayed the best forwards in the playoffs including KG, Duncan, Gasol, and LeBron.

Yes, just like he 'outplayed' Stoudemire in 2005, Haslem in 2006, and Stephen Jackson in 2007, right?

[AshyLarry]

All the while Dirk rivaled or outplayed the best forwards in the playoffs including KG, Duncan, Gasol, and LeBron.

Yes, just like he 'outplayed' Stoudemire in 2005, Haslem in 2006, and Stephen Jackson in 2007, right?

he wasnt the one guarding stoudemire in 05, dampier was, hence the "dirk staring down damp" issue back then.

haslem and stephen jackson took him out of his game. niether outplayed him

[Texas Chuck]

All the while Dirk rivaled or outplayed the best forwards in the playoffs including KG, Duncan, Gasol, and LeBron.

Yes, just like he 'outplayed' Stoudemire in 2005, Haslem in 2006, and Stephen Jackson in 2007, right?

you really are going to post this in a Dirk v KG thread? Really? What was KG doing at this time?

Oh thats right--he was at home not in the playoffs. Im stunned you can think Dirk losing playoff series looks worse than KG missing the playoffs 3 straight years in the prime.

edit: changed wording a bit so as not to lump all KG fans in with Ardee.

[MisterWestside]

As for great players leading teams, it's a road that can take you down to Larry Bird's legendary turnaround as a rookie or LeBron leading the infamous Cavs above and beyond the talent on the roster especially in the regular season.

Ask Bird if he played with players like Ricky Davis. Remember, Red paved the way for Bird's welcome in 1980 -- they overhaul ownership, actually got a head coach for the job (Bill Fitch, who helped to turnaround franchises in the past) and shipped out deadweight players in McAdoo and White while picking up more team-first players for the roster.

And while LeBron's supporting cast underachieved in the playoffs, he played with some better players in Cleveland.

[ardee]

All the while Dirk rivaled or outplayed the best forwards in the playoffs including KG, Duncan, Gasol, and LeBron.

Yes, just like he 'outplayed' Stoudemire in 2005, Haslem in 2006, and Stephen Jackson in 2007, right?

you really are going to post this in a Dirk v KG thread? Really? What was KG doing at this time?

Oh thats right--he was at home not in the playoffs. Im stunned you can think Dirk losing playoff series looks worse than KG missing the playoffs 3 straight years in the prime.

edit: changed wording a bit so as not to lump all KG fans in with Ardee.

1. I'm not a KG fan. I'm a Laker fan, and I hate the guy's attitude and constant trash talk. However, his prime from '02-'05 was among the greatest ever, and as a BASKETBALL fan it's incredible to consider that here was a player who could literally play all five positions as well as fulfill any defensive task his team needed him to, from cleaning the boards to guarding a perimeter scorer. One needs to appreciate that kind of incredible versatility.

2. Again, you're defying logic with your statements. Put KG on those Dallas teams in the mid-00s and they remain perennial contenders.

There is NO way Dirk would have made the Playoffs with those Minny teams either. In 2006, for example, here are KG's four best team-mates:

40 games of Wally. Averaged 20 ppg as a stretch 4 but did little else when he was on the court.
36 games of Ricky Davis. I don't really need to say too much about this character. Consider how bad the situation with his selfish play was, that he took more shots per game than KG.
(It gets downright putrid now)
40 games of Marcus Banks
42 games of Mark Blount

All of his four best team-mates missed more then half the season, and the Wolves yet won 33 games. The best player on the Wolves besides KG himself to play close to a full season was the legendary Trenton Hassell, who averaged 9-3-3 in 33 mpg.

To sum up:

Besides KG, no other player on the Wolves averaged more than 5.6 rpg.
No player averaged more than 4.7 apg.
Besides KG, only Mark Blount shot over 50% from the field (and he missed 40 games).

Now, tell me, do you see Dirk making the Playoffs with that squad, let alone heading to the Finals? If you say that you do, well, I'm done having this argument, because there is no superstar in history who could take such an awful, injury laden squad to success.

[ahonui06]

And obviously DIRK is more of an ideal player to build around as evidenced by his title as the man. You can't build around KG because he isn't a closer and can't take over games down the stretch.

You can't even make 1(!) post without blatantly contradicting another stance you have.

Exactly. Whatever happened to his other favorite, a certain Bill Russell?

Bill Russell is the GOAT. Won 11 titles as the man and turned half of his roster into Hall of Famers. No one else has accomplished that.

[Swimmer]

^ Maybe half of his roster were Hall of Famers, and thus, he won 11 titles.