GreenHat wrote:How is .5 a slight difference when one guy has 2.8? That's nearly 20% more. We're talking about 200+ games that's more than 100 extra turnovers.
Okay, whatever language you prefer.
Shaq played less regular season games so he had a .4 rebound advantage, thats 3% more, 88 extra boards. Shaq had a 1.6 point advantage, thats 6% more, 352 extra points. Hakeem had .5 more turnovers, thats 18% more, 117 extra turnovers.
But Hakeem played a 14 game larger sample with 327 more minutes (better health or stamina?), so his advantages are increased too. Hakeem had a 1.2 edge in blocks about a 30% more. So 234 games, that's 280 extra blocks. Hakeem had a l.2 edge in steals about 30% more. 234 games, that's 280 extra steals
I'll get to Hakeem's great defensive advantage below.
You also use Hakeem winning DPOY as evidence of his defense but ignore that Shaq finished second in the same award. DPOY isn't a great indicator but at least decide if you want it to be used as evidence or not.
Fair enough and actually I don't put much stock in accolades at all, I just use them to get broad strokes of a player's contribution that year. The flaw is that other great players weren't competing for the same award during peak years, among other inaccuracies. So, we'll hash out who you think was better defensively those three year peaks.
How would you like to measure their defense? I'll use everything I can think of. Since they both played center, the most important team defensive position and their peaks were only 4 years apart, they are easier to compare. Green indicates categories when a player is better than the other, Red indicates worse in comparsion, Bold is a tie.
Defense Shaq 99'-02' vs. Hakeem 92'-95'Hakeem Regular SeasonDef. Reb:
9.0DRB%
24.2Blks:
3.8Steals:
1.8Team Opp ppg Rank:
3rd (93'),
5th (94'),
14th (95')
Team Drtg rank:
2nd (94'),
3rd (93'),
12th (95')
Shaq Regular SeasonDef. Reb:
8.5DRB%
23.9Blks:
2.6Steals:
0.6Team Opp ppg Rank:
6th (00'),
9th (02'),
23rd (01')
Team Drtg rank:
1st (00'),
7th (02'),
21st (01')
Hakeem PlayoffsDef. Reb:
8.7DRB%
22.2Blks:
3.7Steals:
1.5Team Opp ppg Rank:
3rd (93'),
7th (94'),
12th (95')
Team Drtg rank:
3rd (94'),
6th (93'),
9th (95')
Shaq PlayoffsDef. Reb:
9.7DRB%
25.5Blks:
2.4Steals:
0.5Team Opp ppg Rank:
3rd (01'),
7th (02'),
15th (00')
Team Drtg rank:
1st (01'),
7th (02'),
13th (00')
And to help account for teammate help or hindrance and pace for Drtg.
Rockets Drtg vs 92'-95' Hakeem105.2 - 96 (
-9.2 diff)
101.4 - 95 (
-6.4 diff)
107.4 - 100 (
-7.4 diff)
Total avg Drtg:
-7.6Lakers Drtg vs 99'-02' Shaq98.2 - 95 (
-3.2 diff)
104.8 - 101 (
-3.8 diff)
101.7 - 99 (
-2.7 diff)
Total avg Drtg:
-3.2Playoffs
Rockets Drtg vs 92'-95' Hakeem104.8 - 97 (
-7.8 diff)
104.1 - 97 (
-7.1 diff)
112.2 - 108 (
-4.2 diff)
Total avg Drtg: -6.36 Lakers Drtg vs 99'-02' Shaq107.5 - 104 (
-3.5 diff)
97.9 - 96 (
-1.9 diff)
102.3 - 99 (
-3.3 diff)
Total avg Drtg: -2.9So not only was Hakeem better in just about every defensive category, he also had less defensive help than Shaq and also faced tougher competition. Once again, Shaq is not close in his peak years.
You use TS% which clearly understates the overall efficiency of bad free throw shooters who are intentionally fouled. Its curious that you would use basic box score stats for everything but then switch to TS% when its convenient for Hakeem.
I don't use certain advanced stats, because they often lack context in comparisons. So you can think of them in the comparisons I used above too. (I want to note that I don't like using team based stats for a player, so that's why I subtracted their individual Drtg.)
Defensive rating is useful only in the context of a season, because pace can alter it. So it's good for in season rankings versus competition but poor for comparing raw numbers differnet seasons, especially individual players. So I used league rankings in season versus competition.
Defensive winshares and winshares in general are team based stats that if you have a stronger roster, you'll get more wins and increase your winshare totals. They also don't acccount for beating weaker competition. It is useful for within team comparisons within a season.
PER is a primarily offensive stat and unreliable for measuring defense as well as other flaws.
TS% as far as I know is one of the most reliable stats for measuring overall offensive shooting percentages. Shaq was a bad free throw shooter, it's a weakness in his offensive game and should be accounted for in comparsions imo. I also showed Shaq's advantage in TS% in the regular season.
Not only was Shaq a better rebounder but he was also a lot better on the offensive glass. No easy boards or stealing rebounds from your teammates there.
Also not sure why you are looking at an arbitrary length of time that is cherry picked to fit Hakeem.
It includes Hakeem's defensive peak and offensive peak. Shaq peaked in both one year, Hakeem peaked in different years. This is Shaq's best three year span, "three-peat" Shaq versus Hakeem's three year peak.
It can be argued only using one year in thier careers and not including Hakeem's offensive and defensive peaks in a smaller sample comparison is arbitrary.
I'll acknowledge Shaq had a slightly better single year, (but it's kind of a wash when you include defense, team support and competition) but Hakeem had better peak years overall and was a better player in combined impact.
