2012-13 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[therealbig3]

My lord the West is in chaos.

Speaking of the West, Stephen Curry has cemented himself as the second best PG in the game imo. And unlike every other elite PG, I think he can actually challenge CP3 at some point in the future. He's got an IQ that I don't really think anyone else has.

[bondom34]

Thoughts on Melo?

Well to me, the most noticeable improvement in Melo's game this year has been his jump shooting and off ball play. It's not like he's coming off screens and abandoning iso play (because he's not), but in general he has made spot up shooting a larger part of his game than it was in the past. It has made him a bit easier to play with because a larger percentage of his shots are coming from "in the flow" opportunities (though again, he's still very reliant on isos for his scoring). So this has been his best jump shooting year since he's been in the league, but other than that the same old problems mire his game. Lazy team defense, doesn't read defenses at the level of true offensive superstars, takes bad shots while not creating enough offense for teammates, very inconsistent scoring efficiency game to game. Knicks obviously have had success in the regular season with the strategy of spacing the floor around his scoring, but I don't really have that much faith in their offensive strategy holding up in the playoffs (been pretty brutal so far for them, fortunately they faced a very offensively challenged team lacking depth in first round). I will be surprised if Knicks win this series, because I think Pacers matchup with them really well defensively, and Melo just hasn't shown the type of talent needed to solve these kind of defensive teams. Obviously if Knicks win this series, then maybe I would consider reevaluating my opinion on him, which could happen because I also thought Boston would give them a tougher battle than they did (though ultimately Boston's lack of depth was a huge problem, a couple of solid bench players might have been the difference in that series).

But basically for me to put Melo in the top 5, I would need to be convinced that you can design a championship caliber offense around him meaning that a) it's reliable over a multiple round playoff run and b) Melo is clearly the primary anchor of that offense. Based on both history and his tendencies as a player, we have yet to see that happen, so I'll wait on elevating him up to top 5 until he proves me wrong.

Melo has definitely proven himself in the postseason before
2010- 31 ppg 8.5 rpg 3.3 apg 46% fg

2009- 27 ppg 5 rpg 4.1 apg 45 % fg

2007- 27ppg 8 rpg 1.2 apg 48 % fg

What has history shown you? Not getting far in the playoffs? In that case Paul shouldn't be so high either.

History's also shown Durant's numbers are still better for career playoffs...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... game::none

[MeloMIracle]

Well to me, the most noticeable improvement in Melo's game this year has been his jump shooting and off ball play. It's not like he's coming off screens and abandoning iso play (because he's not), but in general he has made spot up shooting a larger part of his game than it was in the past. It has made him a bit easier to play with because a larger percentage of his shots are coming from "in the flow" opportunities (though again, he's still very reliant on isos for his scoring). So this has been his best jump shooting year since he's been in the league, but other than that the same old problems mire his game. Lazy team defense, doesn't read defenses at the level of true offensive superstars, takes bad shots while not creating enough offense for teammates, very inconsistent scoring efficiency game to game. Knicks obviously have had success in the regular season with the strategy of spacing the floor around his scoring, but I don't really have that much faith in their offensive strategy holding up in the playoffs (been pretty brutal so far for them, fortunately they faced a very offensively challenged team lacking depth in first round). I will be surprised if Knicks win this series, because I think Pacers matchup with them really well defensively, and Melo just hasn't shown the type of talent needed to solve these kind of defensive teams. Obviously if Knicks win this series, then maybe I would consider reevaluating my opinion on him, which could happen because I also thought Boston would give them a tougher battle than they did (though ultimately Boston's lack of depth was a huge problem, a couple of solid bench players might have been the difference in that series).

But basically for me to put Melo in the top 5, I would need to be convinced that you can design a championship caliber offense around him meaning that a) it's reliable over a multiple round playoff run and b) Melo is clearly the primary anchor of that offense. Based on both history and his tendencies as a player, we have yet to see that happen, so I'll wait on elevating him up to top 5 until he proves me wrong.

Melo has definitely proven himself in the postseason before
2010- 31 ppg 8.5 rpg 3.3 apg 46% fg

2009- 27 ppg 5 rpg 4.1 apg 45 % fg

2007- 27ppg 8 rpg 1.2 apg 48 % fg

What has history shown you? Not getting far in the playoffs? In that case Paul shouldn't be so high either.

History's also shown Durant's numbers are still better for career playoffs...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... game::none

Those numbers are eerily similar seeing as people are talking as if Melo completely sucks in the playoffs and Durant is GOD.... Also Melo had some horrible years in the playoffs like his rookie season, which durant didn't make the playoffs his rookie season and im sure that would have affected his postseaason stats negatively.

[Sinant]

Those numbers are eerily similar seeing as people are talking as if Melo completely sucks in the playoffs and Durant is GOD.... Also Melo had some horrible years in the playoffs like his rookie season, which durant didn't make the playoffs his rookie season and im sure that would have affected his postseaason stats negatively.

Okay then, let's examine without that factor.

Each guy from his 4th season on in the playoffs(eliminates Durant's first playoffs and the first three from Melo):

Carmelo Anthony
Games: 48 (in 7 postseasons)
27.5PPG
7.5RPG
3.0AST
22.3 PER
52.8 TS%
45.8 eFG%
109 ORTG
.141 WS/48

Kevin Durant
Games: 45 (in 3 postseasons)
29.4PPG
8.0RPG
3.8APG
26.7PER
60.9TS%
53.7eFG%
119ORTG
.235 WS/48

Those aren't "eerily similar" numbers. Those are "clearly better" numbers.

[mademan]

My lord the West is in chaos.

Speaking of the West, Stephen Curry has cemented himself as the second best PG in the game imo. And unlike every other elite PG, I think he can actually challenge CP3 at some point in the future. He's got an IQ that I don't really think anyone else has.

If his shooting post AS break is his norm and not just a hot streak, I'm gonna have a tough time putting CP3 above him next year.

[CBA]

My lord the West is in chaos.

Speaking of the West, Stephen Curry has cemented himself as the second best PG in the game imo. And unlike every other elite PG, I think he can actually challenge CP3 at some point in the future. He's got an IQ that I don't really think anyone else has.

If his shooting post AS break is his norm and not just a hot streak, I'm gonna have a tough time putting CP3 above him next year.

I think we've officially ventured into hyperbole now. Curry shot great after ASW (62TS%), but CP3 was only 2% lower on the entire year while being better at everything else and having a much larger impact on his team's offense.

This is exactly what "changing your impression game to game" does. You disregard all prior evidence.

[therealbig3]

I think we've officially ventured into hyperbole now. Curry shot great after ASW (62TS%), but CP3 was only 2% lower on the entire year while being better at everything else and having a much larger impact on his team's offense.

This is exactly what "changing your impression game to game" does. You disregard all prior evidence.

Pretty sure he pointed out "if it wasn't just a hot streak", meaning if Curry played like that for an entire year. And much larger impact on team offense, when Curry's shooting like that? Hard to believe. There's a graphic that showed how Curry being such an unbelievable shooter is basically what the entire Warriors offense is built on. He IS their offense.

I don't necessarily agree with him that next year Curry might be better, but we're not talking game to game sample sizes here. We're assuming a full year of this kind of production.

[therealbig3]

Your impression of a player shouldn't change game to game. The whole idea is ridiculous.

It's another data point, not the entire set.

And like I said, I had Wade over Melo throughout the regular season, and neither one has impressed me in the playoffs. So Wade stays over Melo.

And my point about the playoffs wasn't that it completely changed my opinion of players...it's that when you look at everyone's lists, it's obvious that there's barely any separation between quite a few players for spots 4 and 5, since a ton of people have arguments. So the small sample size of the playoffs becomes the determining factor at that point.

It's not completely changing an opinion when the two players were neck and neck previously.

[Doctor MJ]

Those numbers are eerily similar seeing as people are talking as if Melo completely sucks in the playoffs and Durant is GOD.... Also Melo had some horrible years in the playoffs like his rookie season, which durant didn't make the playoffs his rookie season and im sure that would have affected his postseaason stats negatively.

See, if what you want to argue is that people overrate the difference between players in general, I with you.

The problem with Melo supporters typically though is that they just skew him way up.

For perspective here. Here are the all-time career playoff ranks of these two guys, and the guy they are most compared to:

PER:
LeBron 3rd
Durant 6th
Anthony 46th

WS/48:
LeBron 3rd
Durant 4th
Anthony 183rd

Those are the box score based metrics. If you go by +/- instead, I would imagine it only makes the contrast more stark.

There's really no objective way to think that Durant & Melo are anything like interchangeable using numbers...and if you want to go by other methods, Durant's always killed Melo there too. Better team success, better accolades, etc.

[Doctor MJ]

My lord the West is in chaos.

Speaking of the West, Stephen Curry has cemented himself as the second best PG in the game imo. And unlike every other elite PG, I think he can actually challenge CP3 at some point in the future. He's got an IQ that I don't really think anyone else has.

Yup. Since his rookie year people have noted he had potential to be a 50/40/90 guy. That probably won't happen simply because of his distribution of shots but the efficiency and range is there, as is the whipsmart vision. This is a guy who if his frailty doesn't get in the way may indeed become an MVP-worthy player. Granted, in the age of LeBron & Durant, that still probably won't be enough to win an actual MVP, but damn, impressive.

[E-Balla]

My lord the West is in chaos.

Speaking of the West, Stephen Curry has cemented himself as the second best PG in the game imo. And unlike every other elite PG, I think he can actually challenge CP3 at some point in the future. He's got an IQ that I don't really think anyone else has.

Yup. Since his rookie year people have noted he had potential to be a 50/40/90 guy. That probably won't happen simply because of his distribution of shots but the efficiency and range is there, as is the whipsmart vision. This is a guy who if his frailty doesn't get in the way may indeed become an MVP-worthy player. Granted, in the age of LeBron & Durant, that still probably won't be enough to win an actual MVP, but damn, impressive.

Woah. Chill a second. Curry is great but he still doesn't play a lick of defense and even if he hits CP3's current level that's a weak MVP level at best.

[Doctor MJ]

I think we've officially ventured into hyperbole now. Curry shot great after ASW (62TS%), but CP3 was only 2% lower on the entire year while being better at everything else and having a much larger impact on his team's offense.

This is exactly what "changing your impression game to game" does. You disregard all prior evidence.

Curry scored 26 PPG after the break while Paul scored 17 PPG this year. For Curry to score an extra 9 PPG, do it more efficiently, AND make great decisions and passes with the ball - if he can keep it up - make it a very clear possibility he'll be a better offensive player than Paul.

Obviously there's still defense to consider, but I wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting that the defensive gap was insurmountable by the offensive.

[therealbig3]

Woah. Chill a second. Curry is great but he still doesn't play a lick of defense and even if he hits CP3's current level that's a weak MVP level at best.

Curry's actually a decent defensive PG.

I don't understand why so many people think players can't get better defensively over time? Curry was labeled as a poor defender earlier in his career, which he was, but he's improved tremendously on that side of the ball, and he's no longer a liability.

Although I agree, I don't think he'll ever be more than a weak MVP at best...which is no slight at all. A weak MVP is still a top 5 player, generally.

EDIT: And Nash had the same criticisms on defense, but he was an offensive savant and rightfully won MVP. I don't think Curry has Nash's feel for the game, and there's no guarantee he'll ever get there (probably won't, Nash is one of the 5 best offensive players of all time), but if Nash was able to be an MVP strictly by being such a dominant offensive player, why can't Curry?

[HeartBreakKid]

Curry has entered my top ten with this great playoff run. His ability to play offguard makes him a very valuable player, as well as being able to run legit offenses.

Melo is not near Durant, I don't see the argument at all. Durant is better than Melo in just about every way, by a decent margin in nearly every attribute.

I'm not sure if I'd even take Melo over Kobe, Harden and Wade. Before the playoffs I had those 3 SGs over him. Wade and Harden have not played well, and Melo has fallen off pretty hard in the playoffs himself, so it's harder for me to say. Wade does have a decent excuse in that he is noticeably injured, but yeah, I'm thinking I'd take the trio of SGs over Carmelo.


The biggest problem with making a top ten for this season is the placement of Duncan, even before the playoffs started I am not really sure where to place him. Too bad I missed a lot of Spurs games this season. He was my DPOY and he's top ten, just not sure where.

I'm thinking Williams deserves to be called elite again, he was very good post all-star break, and he showed up in the playoffs despite the losing effort. I'm thinking he's back to his Jazz form now that he's healed and on a team that is at least somewhat competent.

So a rough order of my top ten would likely be

1) James
2) Durant
3) CP3 (close with Durant tbh)
4) Wade
5) Harden

6) Bryant (might be lower because his defense is really terrible, and no Harden is not as bad, and Harden is better offensively this season)
7) Stephen Curry
8) Tim Duncan
9) Carmelo Anthony
10) Deron Williams

Things are shaky after Bryant, but I think Curry has solidified himself in the 7 spot (with room to move up if he continues to impress, which I project he will). Williams and Anthony are pretty inconsistent stars, so I'd take old man Duncan over them.

[Doctor MJ]

EDIT: And Nash had the same criticisms on defense, but he was an offensive savant and rightfully won MVP. I don't think Curry has Nash's feel for the game, and there's no guarantee he'll ever get (probably won't, Nash is one of the 5 best offensive players of all time), but if Nash was able to be an MVP strictly by being such a dominant offensive player, why can't Curry?

When people talked 50/40/90/smart, the obvious comparison was Nash, and I think a lot of us felt uncomfortable with that. Curry was obviously sharp as a tack, but there really was no reason to think Curry would play Nash's style of ball since no one else has, and Nash's transcendant impact comes from that "engine of chaos" attack.

I feel like I'm just starting to see where Curry's genius really comes in. It's not the same as Nash's and this is very clear now, but it's also not like anyone else's. As they say when any great emerges, "He's not the next X, he's the first Steph Curry."

[MeloMIracle]

Curry has entered my top ten with this great playoff run. His ability to play offguard makes him a very valuable player, as well as being able to run legit offenses.

Melo is not near Durant, I don't see the argument at all. Durant is better than Melo in just about every way, by a decent margin in nearly every attribute.

I'm not sure if I'd even take Melo over Kobe, Harden and Wade. Before the playoffs I had those 3 SGs over him. Wade and Harden have not played well, and Melo has fallen off pretty hard in the playoffs himself, so it's harder for me to say. Wade does have a decent excuse in that he is noticeably injured, but yeah, I'm thinking I'd take the trio of SGs over Carmelo.


The biggest problem with making a top ten for this season is the placement of Duncan, even before the playoffs started I am not really sure where to place him. Too bad I missed a lot of Spurs games this season. He was my DPOY and he's top ten, just not sure where.

I'm thinking Williams deserves to be called elite again, he was very good post all-star break, and he showed up in the playoffs despite the losing effort. I'm thinking he's back to his Jazz form now that he's healed and on a team that is at least somewhat competent.

So a rough order of my top ten would likely be

1) James
2) Durant
3) CP3 (close with Durant tbh)
4) Wade
5) Harden

6) Bryant (might be lower because his defense is really terrible, and no Harden is not as bad, and Harden is better offensively this season)
7) Stephen Curry
8) Tim Duncan
9) Carmelo Anthony
10) Deron Williams

Things are shaky after Bryant, but I think Curry has solidified himself in the 7 spot (with room to move up if he continues to impress, which I project he will). Williams and Anthony are pretty inconsistent stars, so I'd take old man Duncan over them.

I have absolutely no problem with people putting KD over Melo I never said Melo was better than him just a matter of preference, but putting harden, wade, or even cp3 over Melo is simply baffling as far as I am concerned if we are going over who the player of this year was.

[Doctor MJ]

I have absolutely no problem with people putting KD over Melo I never said Melo was better than him just a matter of preference, but putting harden, wade, or even cp3 over Melo is simply baffling as far as I am concerned if we are going over who the player of this year was.

Really, you're baffled by how someone could prefer CP3? I mean, they play two totally different positions. How did you achieve such certainty that Chris Paul's floor general impact could be dismissed so easily?

[E-Balla]

EDIT: And Nash had the same criticisms on defense, but he was an offensive savant and rightfully won MVP. I don't think Curry has Nash's feel for the game, and there's no guarantee he'll ever get (probably won't, Nash is one of the 5 best offensive players of all time), but if Nash was able to be an MVP strictly by being such a dominant offensive player, why can't Curry?

When people talked 50/40/90/smart, the obvious comparison was Nash, and I think a lot of us felt uncomfortable with that. Curry was obviously sharp as a tack, but there really was no reason to think Curry would play Nash's style of ball since no one else has, and Nash's transcendant impact comes from that "engine of chaos" attack.

I feel like I'm just starting to see where Curry's genius really comes in. It's not the same as Nash's and this is very clear now, but it's also not like anyone else's. As they say when any great emerges, "He's not the next X, he's the first Steph Curry."

He's the point guard Ray Allen? Yeah that's weak. Problem I have with the 50/40/90 mention is that it assumes Curry can finish at a high enough rate to shoot 50% from the field. He's well under 50% in the paint this season. Nash made it an art to finish well inside. Curry doesn't have the feel for that.

[MeloMIracle]

I have absolutely no problem with people putting KD over Melo I never said Melo was better than him just a matter of preference, but putting harden, wade, or even cp3 over Melo is simply baffling as far as I am concerned if we are going over who the player of this year was.

Really, you're baffled by how someone could prefer CP3? I mean, they play two totally different positions. How did you achieve such certainty that Chris Paul's floor general impact could be dismissed so easily?

You can prefer CP3 all you want, but he did not have a better season than Melo and their mvp rankings this season proves that.

[Doctor MJ]

I have absolutely no problem with people putting KD over Melo I never said Melo was better than him just a matter of preference, but putting harden, wade, or even cp3 over Melo is simply baffling as far as I am concerned if we are going over who the player of this year was.

Really, you're baffled by how someone could prefer CP3? I mean, they play two totally different positions. How did you achieve such certainty that Chris Paul's floor general impact could be dismissed so easily?

You can prefer CP3 all you want, but he did not have a better season than Melo and their mvp rankings this season proves that.

I said nothing about my preferences. I spoke only to you stating to the world you were baffled at something that the vast majority of people aren't baffled by.

Also interesting that Melo finishing 1 spot ahead of Paul is "proof" to you. Those MVP voters aren't baffled by what you're baffled at either...and some of them are baffled by an awful lot.