Dr J v.s Kobe

[Johnlac1]

It's closer than people think...and I rate Bryant over Erving. But even though Bryant was a better outside shot, his career three ball pct. was only 33%. Dr. J was not great outside shooter, but he could make the corner shot with decent accuracy. He is superior to Bryant in shot-blocking, rebounding, help defense, and is still in my opinion the greatest open court player ever. He also has few peers as a coast-to-coast man. He posterized every great center of his era...KAJ, Walton, Gilmore, whomever. He won two titles in the ABA without a great supporting cast. However, I don't think the Nets would have been strong enough to beat the NBA champs from that period. But we'll never know. Don't underrate Dr.J.

[Colbinii]

Dirk? What? Give me a break.
KG? Seriously Overall?
Erving? eh thats really really debatable but i don't think Erving GOAT better than Kobe
Jerry West no way. He was great player but his career was not as great as Kobe.
Hakeem Give or take here. I say overall its close between if your not counting Kobe for 3 rings. Which everyone seems to do.
Oscar... Really? No way did he have the career of Kobe. Give me a break.

Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar.

Please post something using some sort of basketball knowledge when posting instead of "Give me a break".

Also, let's bring this back on topic, and since you say Erving is really really debatable, it must mean you think it is close.

First off,you listed players that you think are better than Kobe...
What has done Dirk another than his on magical run in 2011? He's great shooter but he admits he's not a better scorer than kobe.Which is what Dirk is mainly known for. He sure isn't the defender that Kobe is.
Irving is very debatable if were counting his ABA years. If were not, then its not really debatable.

First off, reading comprehension is something you need to work on. If you read my post, I said these"You could make a case for all of these players over Kobe." No where did I say that all of those players are better than Kobe. If you thought that, why would I say I have him ranked 11-12 yet list 15 players.

He had a magical run in 06 as well, let's not discredit that, and his 09 run was one of the best post-season runs in the last 5 years posting a 126 oRTG, .238 WS/48, 64 TS%, 28% usage rate. From 06-11, Dirks playoffs statistics are better than any 6 year stretch Kobe has had in the post-season. Actually, Kobe doesn't come close to that 6 year stretch in terms of impact or efficiency during any stretch of his post-season career. Dirk is a 24 PER, 58TS%, 117 oRTG, 27.3% USG, .196 ws/48 career playoff performer while Kobe is a 22 PER, 54 TS%, 110 oRTG, 31% USG, .157 WS/48. Let's move on from this debate as this isn't the time for it, but the point stands as that argument is solid ground for Dirk>kobe.

I don't know why you wouldn't count the ABA years...Also, we can both agree that these players are at least debatable, which was my whole point of my posts, which somehow went completely over your head. I am not debating that these players are better than Kobe. What I am saying is the case can be made depending on how you value players in a GOAT list, which there is no right or wrong way, rather logical and illogical ways (Like ring counting).

[Doctor MJ]

I look at Dr.J as a bigger Wade as well, when it comes to slashing and help defense - obviously doesn't have the handles deal that Wade gives you.

So I've stayed out of the thread until now because I didn't want to risk polarizing people more. At this point though the thread is going, and since I've thought a lot about this comparison, it just makes sense for me to chime in.

I think HeartBreak's way of looking at Erving is a great starting point. Putting aside what that says about who is better at peak, it says:

Wade/Erving are more explosive-oriented, and this is something that fades as you age. We would thus expect these superstars to peak earlier than your typical superstar.

Kobe is the tactician. Every weapon you can add to your arsenal through individual practice, he's got it. We would thus expect him to peak later - at least compared to the typical explosive guys - because some of those individual weapons are going to continue aiding him basically until he retires.

Now with that in mind: I think Erving was better when they were younger, but then he faded a bit and Kobe to the lead. When did that happen? If we go just age vs age, I'd say age 27.

Okay, now you add in personality: Erving is the lead by inspiration guy, somewhat like Duncan but more gregarious, and if you don't tell him he's suppose to be the alpha, he at times be too passive. Kobe is the killer individualist, he's going to take control of all situations he can.

I think it's possible that Kobe surpassing Erving could have happened later if it weren't for their personalities. Erving in the last '70s was less than he could be even with his gradually decreasing explosiveness because he didn't take more control, Kobe on the other dived headlong into his prime ready to do it all. This probably also made Kobe's edge for the next years even bigger than it would have been.

I would hope to this point no one sees anything that objectionable. Maybe you disagree with me on something because you think the nuances of these two players shifts yearly comparisons, but broad strokes, the differences in their game and mentality are clear.

Now to the part, or one par, that some will clearly object to:

Kobe's I'll-do-it-myself approach eventually becomes a problem just as it did with Jordan. Part of this is not recognizing that while you may still be the best, you simply have to adjust your approach because you're not superior of a scoring option by as much of an edge over your teammates as you used to be. But then it becomes a more glaring issue when Howard comes over (the issue is also apparent with Nash, although Nash's injuries make that particular issue not very important).

I would argue you start seeing this when Kobe's around 32, and of course the Howard year was 34.

By contrast, Erving was 32 when Moses Malone came over. Erving deferred to Moses as a scoring option, but still found plenty of ways to be very useful given Moses' strengths. The result was arguably the GOAT team ever. And it's my opinion that if it had been Kobe there instead of Erving, things don't go so smoothly.

So I'll take Erving through age 26, and then again at age 32 onward. I'll take Kobe 27-31, and I suppose in the early years while Erving is still in college.

Is that enough for Erving to win the comparison? Y'know what, I haven't decided. We're in the middle of the Top 100 project, and neither of these guys have really been talked about yet. I tend to go back & forth. We'll see where I end up this time soon enough.

[CountTheirRings]

To clarify for anyone hating because of my last post:

I was capitalizing on the OP's one-sided post and the inclusion of the 'Does the ABA "count"' section (lol), coupled with the fact that I'm a die-hard Kobe fan and naturally somewhat bias. Not to mention, a kind of hyperbolic edge to highlight the their discrepancies.

A bit of borderline trolling/implicit messaging that was not well-received, I guess. Will refrain from compromising or "derailing" the debate in the future.

But I do know my basketball.

[ichirotwoo]

yeah, expect 2013 kobe IS a far, far better offensive player than 2013 dwight. it's not even remotely close.

and lol @ bringing up a 40 year nash who played 54 games and looked completely done. why in the world should a top 5 offensive player in the league give up on-ball primacy to broken down 40 yr old who is totally incapable of breaking down the defense. what nonsense.

because nash looked so great without bryant in the 2013 post-season and 2014 reg season.

as for the comparison, it's kobe easily. far better scorer and just as efficient. much better shooter. better on-ball/man-to-man defender. much better ball-handler/play-maker/creator.

[Meloholic]

I know most of us dont like Kobe but this is not even close.

Kobe is far greater than Dr J both on offense and defense

[PaulieWal]

I am getting a little tired of this "RealGM hates Kobe" narrative that Kobe/Lakers fans are pushing on this board. He's comfortably winning this poll (I voted for him as well). Most of the respected and reasonable posters on this board have Kobe in their top 8-12. That is not hating Kobe. The disconnect seems to lie with some of the more casual fans who often rate him in their top 5 or top 3 and then the others who rate him more appropriately between 8-12 (I have him at 10 personally).

Look, I know Kobe has his fair share of trolls but so does nearly every other superstar maybe except for MJ. Kobe fans on the GB also tend to rate him very highly. Over the last few days on GB I have seen posters say that he is better than MJ (not a lie). It's becoming a vicious circle. Casual fans and hardcore Kobe fans will say he is a Top 5 player and sometimes almost as good as MJ, then others will come in and say no he isn't that good or the Kobe trolls will jump in and say he's barely top 15, then Kobe fans (even the more rational ones) say that Kobe is so hated. Hell I got called a "Kobe hater" on the GB after I said he's a top 10 player, not top 5.

Most Lakers fans here probably know how I feel about Kobe. He's an all-time great and a top 10 player but this "RealGM hates Kobe" narrative needs to stop.

[Samurai]

Full disclosure: Dr. J was one of my favorite players to watch during the 70's, so I am a big Dr. J fan. I have never been a Kobe fan.

But leaving personal feelings out of it, I'd have to rank Kobe ahead of the Doctor. And it pains me to admit that.

Erving was among the best ever at slashing to the hoop or filling the wing on a fast break. But it isn't like Kobe was incapable of those things. Erving was the better rebounder, while Kobe the better passer and ball handler. But Kobe has a big edge in outside shooting, both from beyond the arc and in the midrange. As much as I liked Doc, he just wasn't very reliable beyond 15 feet.

I've seen a number of posts giving Erving the defensive edge over Kobe. Interesting, because that just isn't my recollection. Erving was a good man-to-man defender and good help defender but he never struck me as elite in either category. In space, he was beaten off the dribble more often than I would have figured someone with his athleticism should be. Bobby Jones was a much better defender than Dr J and would typically draw the more challenging defensive assignment. Jones could just absolutely stick to anyone like glue, I think he is underrated (or under-noticed) by fans today that never really saw him play. (I'd even say that Jones was a more accurate shooter from 15 feet out than Erving). Some of the comments lauding Erving as a great defender almost seems as though they are thinking of Jones instead of Erving. If Doc could play defense like Bobby Jones, I could make an argument for taking him over Kobe. But he just wasn't Bobby Jones on defense, so I would have to rank Kobe ahead of the good Doctor.

I also didn't get to see Erving on any type of regular basis in the ABA. I really wanted to but there was just zero TV coverage of the ABA. If I could have seen Dr J play regularly in the ABA, I might have a different opinion.

[thizznation]

People who downgrade Erving because his stats/scoring suffered when he went to the NBA should realize that the Sixers had more talent than Erving's ABA teams. He sublimated his game for the team. He still averaged close to 27 ppg one season for the Sixers. He could have eaily averaged 5+ ppg if the team needed the points.

How do you account for the major dip in stats during the playoffs in his NBA career?

knee injury

[Colbinii]

People who downgrade Erving because his stats/scoring suffered when he went to the NBA should realize that the Sixers had more talent than Erving's ABA teams. He sublimated his game for the team. He still averaged close to 27 ppg one season for the Sixers. He could have eaily averaged 5+ ppg if the team needed the points.

How do you account for the major dip in stats during the playoffs in his NBA career?

knee injury

For nearly every single year in his career?

I find it interesting you bring up injuries as an excuse when Kobe Bryant was the most injured Superstar ever.

[Reservoirdawgs]

I find it interesting you bring up injuries as an excuse when Kobe Bryant was the most injured Superstar ever.

Huh?? For the most part, he's been a fairly durable player.

[Colbinii]

I find it interesting you bring up injuries as an excuse when Kobe Bryant was the most injured Superstar ever.

Huh?? For the most part, he's been a fairly durable player.

He is durable, but I am not going to use an injury as an excuse to Kobe's play when this guy is using an excuse for Ervings play.

So healthy...

[Johnlac1]

As long as we're bringing up Dr. J, I should mention that the first NBA team to draft him was the Bucks in 1972. He had already played a season in the ABA and was the biggest star in that league. I'm wondering what would have happened if had joined the Bucks instead of staying with the ABA. Then you'd have a team of KAJ, Oscar Robertson, and Dr. J. He did sign a contract with the Hawks in the early seventies, but that was voided by the courts. Of course, if he hadn't already been in the ABA, I don't know if he would have lasted until the 12th pick when the Bucks selected him.

[NO-KG-AI]

How do you account for the major dip in stats during the playoffs in his NBA career?

knee injury

For nearly every single year in his career?

I find it interesting you bring up injuries as an excuse when Kobe Bryant was the most injured Superstar ever.

No, not even close, he's just the only guy that makes national news every time something is "sore" because he makes sure we know about it. You don't think loads of guys are nursing soreness, bruises, swelling, bumps, lacerations, strains and what not, without announcing it to the media and having charts made about it so we can see how tough they are?

[Warspite]

The easiest reason to explain DrJs fall off is to look at

1. rules changes: No 3pt line. What would be the impact of kobe if we took away the 3pt line in 05?

2. Style of play. Big man oriented offenses and defenses (more than half the teams had HoF Cs)

3. age: he was getting older every yr and I doubt very much Kobe would ever want a Dr to use 1970s methods on him.

4. Traded to a new team that already had 3 all star wing players.

5, mins per game played. Its harder to get your stats when your playing 20% less and you have to share the ball with World B Free, Doug Collins and a former MVP in McGinnis.

6. Integration of the 2 leagues: Many more NBA players saw their stats decline after the merger. In fact many a past prime star that was holding on went ahead and retired because they could no longer compete after 76 but they were great in 73.

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm one of the biggest ABA fans on the board and agree that peak Doc was higher, but Kobe's got some powerful longevity playing big minutes and those titles with Pau Gasol as his second best player are a powerful argument for me that Kobe is better than the eye test where frankly I was not that impressed. I'm trying hard to keep an open mind but I think I start from the idea that Kobe has a slight edge.

Though maybe not on Jerry West . . . if Allen Iverson can get that much traction out of one trip to the finals from a weak EC, how much credit does West get for all those Laker finals even if Russell (my GOAT choice) won them all.

Anyone who says Malone and Stockton would have rings if not for Jordan has to do the same for West with Russell in order to remain consistent, particularly considering the fact that West ran into Russell a lot more often than Malone and Stockton ran into Jordan, and West actually played magnificently in defeat, including the first and only Finals MVP while on the losing side.

[Pg81]

I'm one of the biggest ABA fans on the board and agree that peak Doc was higher, but Kobe's got some powerful longevity playing big minutes and those titles with Pau Gasol as his second best player are a powerful argument for me that Kobe is better than the eye test where frankly I was not that impressed. I'm trying hard to keep an open mind but I think I start from the idea that Kobe has a slight edge.

Though maybe not on Jerry West . . . if Allen Iverson can get that much traction out of one trip to the finals from a weak EC, how much credit does West get for all those Laker finals even if Russell (my GOAT choice) won them all.

Anyone who says Malone and Stockton would have rings if not for Jordan has to do the same for West with Russell in order to remain consistent, particularly considering the fact that West ran into Russell a lot more often than Malone and Stockton ran into Jordan, and West actually played magnificently in defeat, including the first and only Finals MVP while on the losing side.

Claiming that Stockton and Malone would have had a ring if not for Jordan is fallacious though.
They met the Bulls once in the finals but both were in the league for over 15+ years and they played in a different conference so there were many more teams/superstars which prevented them from having a ring.

[kingkoopi]

I am getting a little tired of this "RealGM hates Kobe" narrative that Kobe/Lakers fans are pushing on this board. He's comfortably winning this poll (I voted for him as well). Most of the respected and reasonable posters on this board have Kobe in their top 8-12. That is not hating Kobe. The disconnect seems to lie with some of the more casual fans who often rate him in their top 5 or top 3 and then the others who rate him more appropriately between 8-12 (I have him at 10 personally).

Look, I know Kobe has his fair share of trolls but so does nearly every other superstar maybe except for MJ. Kobe fans on the GB also tend to rate him very highly. Over the last few days on GB I have seen posters say that he is better than MJ (not a lie). It's becoming a vicious circle. Casual fans and hardcore Kobe fans will say he is a Top 5 player and sometimes almost as good as MJ, then others will come in and say no he isn't that good or the Kobe trolls will jump in and say he's barely top 15, then Kobe fans (even the more rational ones) say that Kobe is so hated. Hell I got called a "Kobe hater" on the GB after I said he's a top 10 player, not top 5.

Most Lakers fans here probably know how I feel about Kobe. He's an all-time great and a top 10 player but this "RealGM hates Kobe" narrative needs to stop.

People dont call you a hater cus you say Kobe isnt top 5, they call you a Edited.

Check your PMs. ~Doc

[HeartBreakKid]

I find it interesting you bring up injuries as an excuse when Kobe Bryant was the most injured Superstar ever.

Huh?? For the most part, he's been a fairly durable player.

He is durable, but I am not going to use an injury as an excuse to Kobe's play when this guy is using an excuse for Ervings play.

So healthy...

That isn't bad at all. Just about every NBA player deals with those. Kobe has had very little major injuries over the course of his career. I mean really most of that list are sprains and sores...I got those playing high school sports.

[Warspite]

Definitely Kobe, accomplished much more had a better peak and longer career. Can't see a good argument for Dr. J.

What more did he accomplish?
How was he better at his peak? DrJ in the playoffs at his peak was 35ppg 13rpg 5apg .533 taking the Finals MVP.
What yr was Kobe top 10 in rebounding, assists, scoring, steals and blocks at the same time?
What yr did Kobe lead the league in both offensive and defensive win shares?