RealGM Top 100 List #20

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#61 » by ronnymac2 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:54 pm

fpliii wrote:Just wondering...for Barkley supporters, what separates him from Ewing at this spot in your opinion?


Yeah I'm having a hard time with that, too. I'd imagine Barkley advocates would point to more reliable offense in the playoffs, but Ewing's offensive woes get overblown a bit, and I believe Ewing would be more portable on offense than David Robinson because of his superior range, catch-and-shoot ability, and slightly better back-to-the-basket scoring game, making him a better choice as a Number 2 guy offensively. Ewing is also one of the greatest defensive players in history...maybe top 5. Getting there at least. So I don't know.

I'm also not sure if Ewing/Barkley have such a longevity edge over Dwyane Wade that Wade's peak edge doesn't get him in here. Same for Steve Nash.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#62 » by lorak » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:56 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:
True. I brought that incident up in the 1994 RPOY thread, but I remember people talking me down from going in too hard on Scottie because other than that 1 isolated incident, Pip's off-court mentality and on-court leadership and mentorship was strong that year. It wasn't symptomatic of a larger issue with Scottie that would affect his on-court impact at any other time.


I don't know. His off court attitude in 1998 was a big problem. (and I'm not sure, but probably in Houston he also caused some problems.) There's also his meltdown, "migraine" vs Pistons. IMO too much to ignore that.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#63 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:11 pm

I hope people don't overreact to the migraine(which was confirmed to be very legit btw) or the Kukoc game. Yeah those aren't the highlights of Scottie's career but by no means do they define what a tremendous team player he was. I don't really get that worked up about someone having some off-court stuff if they always put the team first on the court and outside of a couple seconds in a very understandable(tho not excusable) situation Pip always did that.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#64 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:14 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:I'm happy to see pettit in the conversation, as he sometimes doesn't even get mentioned when discussing the best PFs of all time. He really paved the way for the modern day PF (modern as in 70s and later, heh). That said, I don't think he's a given over barkley as we try to evaluate what he did in his era relative to other eras. I will be voting for barkley, so i'll make a more detailed comparison in that post.


A quick and perhaps naive comparison. . .

Barkley was the MVP once, Pettit was MVP twice.

Barkley was never 1st or 2nd best player (by PoY voting).
Pettit was 1st twice (over Russell) and 2nd twice.

Pettit also led his team to the title, whereas Barkley is ringless.


With less teams and the talent pool being smaller, I value his accomplishments slightly less than I would say barkley. That isn't a comment on how good he was relative to his era, but just that context needs to be applied when looking at what he accomplished. That said, I think very highly of him, and don't see an argument for him being ranked any lower than 6th on the all time PF list.

I will probably end up referencing this again, but might as well add it here. Pace adjusted look at pettit:

Bob Pettit – I actually called the comparison on Pettit before I even looked. Part of the reason was that Pettit’s age range was shorter than the others, and I knew who I would have to work with in the 27-32 years old range. Patrick Ewing is the guy. A moderately efficient high scoring big man who didn’t pass much and rebounded well but not at an absolutely elite Russell / Wilt level. Defensively I went with the more mobile but less block-happy Kevin McHale.


http://doubledribble.wordpress.com/2012 ... ted-stats/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... DBKZmI2YlE
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#65 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:14 pm

colts18 wrote:
Spoiler:
lorak wrote:
Playoffs on/off doesn't have very little meaning if it's consistent over longer period of time. For example Shaq 2001 (but similar thing apply to Dirk or LeBron) is clear aberration from his results in next several years, so we can't put much trust into that. But in Nash's case results are more consistent year by year, so can't be ignored.

It does have little meaning. 1 regular season of on/off doesn't have too much value (hence the need for RAPM) and its a much better representative sample than a 82 game playoff sample. For example, LeBron only has 923 playoff off minutes. That's about 19 full games which is still a small sample size. That sample is also biased because star players play almost every meaningful minute of playoff games.

LeBron playoff career off minutes: 923 minutes
LeBron 2014 regular season off minutes: 1072 minutes

That tells you everything you need to know. His career playoff minutes is still less than 1 full season of off minutes. That sample represents a lot of blowouts and time when bench players are mostly on the court.



That's fine if you want to not look at the PS +/- for Nash if you honestly don't think it has merit. I know he's your guy. I would love if you would respond to the post I made earlier itt showing how effective opposing PGs tended to be against Nash? I've tried engaging you for several threads in Nash discussion, but mainly you just posted your talking points and that was it. I'd love to hear more of your take on Nash and maybe address some of my concerns.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#66 » by lorak » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:32 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:So I dug into it to better understand what happened...but what I'm getting I don't think matches what your table seems to say.

First thing I did is did a search of guys who played from '54 to '61, and found 10.
I then went to each guy and looked up his WS/48 in '54 vs '61.
I found though that only 2 of the 10 guys increased his WS/48.

The first guy was Cousy, whose Offensive WS had fallen off a cliff, and so he only saw his WS/48 increase because his Defensive WS skyrocketed, which happened because that's a problematic stat that make everyone on a great defensive team get a lot of Defensive WS.

The second guy was Ernie Beck who played only 8 MPG in '61 going for that rare 2/2/1 combo of points, rebounds, and assists.

Andven if I weight someone like Beck as much as guys playing big minutes, my numbers indicate a drop in WS/48 overall for this group of player.


So literally from what I see, every single player from '54 was less effective in '61.
Before we get into anything else - given that this study wasn't the be all end all - we need to get clarity on what's going on.Please explain more how you did your study.


I calculated WS/48 for '61 players differently: I added up their total minutes played and total WS in '61 and then calculated WS/48 from that. But I'm not sure if my method is better than yours, though. Anyway, it wouldn't change overall point. '61 players on average would be worse by -0.038 WS/48 but also older by 7 years (31.6 years old) so that decrease in production is probably in most part explained by aging. Here's every season using your method:


Code: Select all

YEAR   PLAYER   AGE   WS/48 DIFF
1955   67   27,2   -0,264
1956   49   27,9   -0,021
1957   39   28,9   -0,022
1958   34   29,5   -0,033
1959   20   30,2   -0,057
1960   18   31,1   -0,087
1961   10   31,6   -0,038
1962   6   32,7   -0,079
1963   3   33,7   -0,086


Re: 26 & aging quicker. You're bringing up these other guys specifically because you see them as lasting through to the '60s, and you don't see an issue with Mikan's decrease in performance?


Well, because when decrease means playing at 0.264 WS/48 level, then I don't care how big drop off there was. I see it that way: before '52 he was Mister Basketball, undisputed GOAT, probably ~0.350 WS/48 player, after '51 "only" arguably GOAT.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#67 » by ceiling raiser » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:38 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:
fpliii wrote:Just wondering...for Barkley supporters, what separates him from Ewing at this spot in your opinion?


Yeah I'm having a hard time with that, too. I'd imagine Barkley advocates would point to more reliable offense in the playoffs, but Ewing's offensive woes get overblown a bit, and I believe Ewing would be more portable on offense than David Robinson because of his superior range, catch-and-shoot ability, and slightly better back-to-the-basket scoring game, making him a better choice as a Number 2 guy offensively. Ewing is also one of the greatest defensive players in history...maybe top 5. Getting there at least. So I don't know.

I'm also not sure if Ewing/Barkley have such a longevity edge over Dwyane Wade that Wade's peak edge doesn't get him in here. Same for Steve Nash.

1) How far out can we trust Ewing to consistently hit a jumper in his scoring prime?

2) I didn't start watching until 92-93 so I missed a good deal of Ewing's prime. Do you have any playoff series that you'd recommend checking out to get a feel for his game early in his career?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#68 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:44 pm

Okay so I'll make this my vote, but my mind is still open.

Vote: Charles Barkley

On the whole I find the criticism of Barkley to be not inaccurate, but I find the way his positives are brushed aside to very problematic.

So, we've got people here very much debating Barkley vs Pettit. While I personally see Pettit as a legit talent in any era and defend his early inefficiency, the gap between Barkley and Pettit as an offensive threat is massive.

When you factor in pace, it makes sense to see Barkley at at least comparable volume to Pettit.

Pettit at his best was in the 52-53% TS range, while Barkley was more like 65-66%. I know the league is a bit more efficient nowadays, but I don't think I have to go into detail for people to realize this gap is insane. And of course, it's insane not because of Pettit - my point is not to trash Pettit - but because Barkley is such an outlier.

So when people say "Yeah Barkley put up numbers like the other guys we voted in but he had a bad attitude", well no, Barkley didn't put up numbers comparable to the guys we've been voting in, he puts most of these guys to shame. The bad attitude is why he wasn't a serious candidate for the Top 5 or Top 10, but now we've long since gone past the guys who could make a case for being as impressive by the numbers he's strong at.

None of this means I consider him a lock here though for my vote. People asked about Ewing, and that's a great name to bring up. Frankly I would expect to draft Ewing over Moses who just got in a rather shocking landslide, presumably because I've heard talk that he won 3 MVPs. :wink:

So how do I choose between Barkley and Ewing?

Well I'll say up front that it is hard to choose against a 2-way big, which is the holy grail of prospects even today where bigs seem less important. My concern with Ewing is about how 2-way he typically was.

Just taken with more basic stats, this was a guy typically scoring well above 20 PPG with meh efficiency on teams that weren't really killing it on offense. Right there if you think like I do that most bigs shouldn't be shooting that much, you have to question whether Ewing was being used correctly. And of course Ewing theory doesn't help there.

If I go a bit more advanced and look at Offensive Win Shares, let's compare him, Barkley and their recently voted in peer:

Barkley 123.3
Robinson 98.5
Ewing 45.0

Pretty massive gap here between Ewing & Robinson let alone Barkley. Of course people end up debating Robinson vs Ewing, but that's because they think Robinson got worse in the playoffs. Barkley on the other hand if anything became even more dominant in the playoffs.

I'm hammering all this in because y'all know Barkley was much better than Ewing on offense, but you probably don't think of Barkley being 2-3 times as impactful.

And if we go into RAPM, it may get even worse. With the ubiquitous caveat in place that we don't have the earlier years, here's the Offensive RAPM for these two guys as we have them:

'98: Barkley 8.67, Ewing 0.51
'99: Barkley 7.81, Ewing 0.52
'00: Barkley 5.93. Ewing 0.47

This was what the guys looked like late in their career, with Ewing scoring a bit less than before, and Barkley outright NOT being his team's first option. Both almost certainly were better at their best, but holy crap, do you see the difference there? One guy is still an offensive superstar despite adjusting his role, while the other guy's impact is basically non-existent.

This sticks with me. It's be tough to vote for a true two-way superstar below Barkley, but I don't think that's what Ewing was. He might have been there briefly, but that's about it.

Now as I say all this I have to point out, if I gave the overall RAPM for these guys in those years Ewing's numbers are better than Barkley's.

I'll pause there to emphasize it.

You might be thinking, "Bloody hell Doc, how can you possibly go against Ewing if even in those circumstance he comes out on top?"

Thing is, late Barkley truly was awful on defense, and that's was gives Ewing the edge. If Barkley can be anywhere near neutrality, he wins this easily with that offensive edge, and in the end, I have trouble accepting that in his prime when things were truly on the line, Barkley was a major net negative on defense. He was just such an aggressive player getting boards, and steals, and even blocks. I'm not going to say he was great, but to truly claim that he was a millstone on defense and THAT is why I pick some offense-neutral big over him seems really, really bold to me.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#69 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:48 pm

lorak wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:So I dug into it to better understand what happened...but what I'm getting I don't think matches what your table seems to say.

First thing I did is did a search of guys who played from '54 to '61, and found 10.
I then went to each guy and looked up his WS/48 in '54 vs '61.
I found though that only 2 of the 10 guys increased his WS/48.

The first guy was Cousy, whose Offensive WS had fallen off a cliff, and so he only saw his WS/48 increase because his Defensive WS skyrocketed, which happened because that's a problematic stat that make everyone on a great defensive team get a lot of Defensive WS.

The second guy was Ernie Beck who played only 8 MPG in '61 going for that rare 2/2/1 combo of points, rebounds, and assists.

Andven if I weight someone like Beck as much as guys playing big minutes, my numbers indicate a drop in WS/48 overall for this group of player.


So literally from what I see, every single player from '54 was less effective in '61.
Before we get into anything else - given that this study wasn't the be all end all - we need to get clarity on what's going on.Please explain more how you did your study.


I calculated WS/48 for '61 players differently: I added up their total minutes played and total WS in '61 and then calculated WS/48 from that. But I'm not sure if my method is better than yours, though. Anyway, it wouldn't change overall point. '61 players on average would be worse by -0.038 WS/48 but also older by 7 years (31.6 years old) so that decrease in production is probably in most part explained by aging. Here's every season using your method:


Code: Select all

YEAR   PLAYER   AGE   WS/48 DIFF
1955   67   27,2   -0,264
1956   49   27,9   -0,021
1957   39   28,9   -0,022
1958   34   29,5   -0,033
1959   20   30,2   -0,057
1960   18   31,1   -0,087
1961   10   31,6   -0,038
1962   6   32,7   -0,079
1963   3   33,7   -0,086


Re: 26 & aging quicker. You're bringing up these other guys specifically because you see them as lasting through to the '60s, and you don't see an issue with Mikan's decrease in performance?


Well, because when decrease means playing at 0.264 WS/48 level, then I don't care how big drop off there was. I see it that way: before '52 he was Mister Basketball, undisputed GOAT, probably ~0.350 WS/48 player, after '51 "only" arguably GOAT.


Okay, still confused as to how the results could have been so different, but I appreciate you calculating it the other way, and I agree that there's such a big gap in time here it's tough to say how meaningful it is.

Re: Mikan. The thing I keep pointing to is that the only time when Mikan was clear cut way ahead of all contemporaries was through '51. Afterwards while he was still good, he's in the same tier with the other best players of his day...none of which do I take very seriously when talking about the #20 player of all-time.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#70 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:49 pm

fpliii wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:
fpliii wrote:Just wondering...for Barkley supporters, what separates him from Ewing at this spot in your opinion?


Yeah I'm having a hard time with that, too. I'd imagine Barkley advocates would point to more reliable offense in the playoffs, but Ewing's offensive woes get overblown a bit, and I believe Ewing would be more portable on offense than David Robinson because of his superior range, catch-and-shoot ability, and slightly better back-to-the-basket scoring game, making him a better choice as a Number 2 guy offensively. Ewing is also one of the greatest defensive players in history...maybe top 5. Getting there at least. So I don't know.

I'm also not sure if Ewing/Barkley have such a longevity edge over Dwyane Wade that Wade's peak edge doesn't get him in here. Same for Steve Nash.

1) How far out can we trust Ewing to consistently hit a jumper in his scoring prime?

2) I didn't start watching until 92-93 so I missed a good deal of Ewing's prime. Do you have any playoff series that you'd recommend checking out to get a feel for his game early in his career?


He had a pretty reliable 15-18 footer in the 2nd half of his prime.

Games 4 and 5 against the celtics in the 1990 playoffs are good examples of early prime ewing:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 40NYK.html

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbKTCuTiphA[/youtube]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 60BOS.html -- clincher after falling down 2-0 to start the series

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hylBSIMbeZg[/youtube]
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#71 » by ardee » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:58 pm

lorak wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:
True. I brought that incident up in the 1994 RPOY thread, but I remember people talking me down from going in too hard on Scottie because other than that 1 isolated incident, Pip's off-court mentality and on-court leadership and mentorship was strong that year. It wasn't symptomatic of a larger issue with Scottie that would affect his on-court impact at any other time.


I don't know. His off court attitude in 1998 was a big problem. (and I'm not sure, but probably in Houston he also caused some problems.) There's also his meltdown, "migraine" vs Pistons. IMO too much to ignore that.


How on Earth can you hold 1998 against Scottie... Krause and Reinsdorf were treating him like garbage, he was standing up for his own dignity. Jordan was on Scottie's side for that.

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#72 » by ceiling raiser » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:58 pm

Thanks for the Ewing-Barkley breakdown Doc.
Doctor MJ wrote:Thing is, late Barkley truly was awful on defense, and that's was gives Ewing the edge. If Barkley can be anywhere near neutrality, he wins this easily with that offensive edge, and in the end, I have trouble accepting that in his prime when things were truly on the line, Barkley was a major net negative on defense. He was just such an aggressive player getting boards, and steals, and even blocks. I'm not going to say he was great, but to truly claim that he was a millstone on defense and THAT is why I pick some offense-neutral big over him seems really, really bold to me.

You note that the rebounds and blk/stl numbers are indicators that Barkley could've been closer to neutral on defense during his prime. Just wondering a couple of things:

1) Who of the two do we feel was further removed from his prime during the play-by-play era?

2) You mentioned the OWS numbers for Barkley/Robinson/Ewing in contending that Ewing was close to neutral on offense. Do we have any reason to believe Ewing was making significant non-box score contributions on offense that would cause OWS to belie his impact?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#73 » by ronnymac2 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:01 pm

fpliii wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:
fpliii wrote:Just wondering...for Barkley supporters, what separates him from Ewing at this spot in your opinion?


Yeah I'm having a hard time with that, too. I'd imagine Barkley advocates would point to more reliable offense in the playoffs, but Ewing's offensive woes get overblown a bit, and I believe Ewing would be more portable on offense than David Robinson because of his superior range, catch-and-shoot ability, and slightly better back-to-the-basket scoring game, making him a better choice as a Number 2 guy offensively. Ewing is also one of the greatest defensive players in history...maybe top 5. Getting there at least. So I don't know.

I'm also not sure if Ewing/Barkley have such a longevity edge over Dwyane Wade that Wade's peak edge doesn't get him in here. Same for Steve Nash.

1) How far out can we trust Ewing to consistently hit a jumper in his scoring prime?

2) I didn't start watching until 92-93 so I missed a good deal of Ewing's prime. Do you have any playoff series that you'd recommend checking out to get a feel for his game early in his career?


1. I cannot answer that question with certainty, but Clyde Frazier's post above helps with that.

2. 1990 vs. Boston and 1993 vs. Chicago are in my opinion the best series in Ewing's career, at least offensively. Considering stakes and competition, 1993 Ewing takes the cake for me.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#74 » by ronnymac2 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:08 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Just taken with more basic stats, this was a guy typically scoring well above 20 PPG with meh efficiency on teams that weren't really killing it on offense. Right there if you think like I do that most bigs shouldn't be shooting that much, you have to question whether Ewing was being used correctly.


Patrick Ewing was definitely used incorrectly on offense. This was a guy who came into the league hyped as the next Bill Russell, of course based on defensive potential. He came in raw on offense, but he developed into a 20 PPG scorer based on team need. Unfortunately, NY never had a great offensive team in terms of spacing, creators, or scheme/coaching.

The irony now is that Ewing is being dinged for possible offensive shortcomings when his offensive development exceeded expectations and can be seen as a bonus, all the while Ewing succeeded as a defender by anchoring the greatest defensive dynasty in history post-Russell.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#75 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:15 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Just taken with more basic stats, this was a guy typically scoring well above 20 PPG with meh efficiency on teams that weren't really killing it on offense. Right there if you think like I do that most bigs shouldn't be shooting that much, you have to question whether Ewing was being used correctly.


Patrick Ewing was definitely used incorrectly on offense. This was a guy who came into the league hyped as the next Bill Russell, of course based on defensive potential. He came in raw on offense, but he developed into a 20 PPG scorer based on team need. Unfortunately, NY never had a great offensive team in terms of spacing, creators, or scheme/coaching.

The irony now is that Ewing is being dinged for possible offensive shortcomings when his offensive development exceeded expectations and can be seen as a bonus, all the while Ewing succeeded as a defender by anchoring the greatest defensive dynasty in history post-Russell.


Well said. NY's DRTG rank from 92-99:

92 - 2nd
93 - 1st
94 - 1st
95 - 1st

96 - 4th
97 - 2nd
98 - 4th
99 - 4th

8 straight seasons as a top 5 defense, and 3 years in a row at #1? While most recognize the 90s knicks as very strong defensively, I think this may be getting glossed over. That's really impressive.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#76 » by drza » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:16 pm

Owly wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:A quick and perhaps naive comparison. . .

Barkley was the MVP once, Pettit was MVP twice.

Barkley was never 1st or 2nd best player (by PoY voting).
Pettit was 1st twice (over Russell) and 2nd twice.

Pettit also led his team to the title, whereas Barkley is ringless.

Spoiler:
I'm considering Pettit here but ...

"twice over Russell"

Is it really worth invoking Russell's name and the presumed impact he had at his peak to get 3rd here, to describe his '57 season. Admittedly it isn't a Robinson over Moses in '95 or even a Moses over Jabbar in '83, Russell literally did come second in PotY shares. But Russell showed a fairly small impact (and that whilst arriving near simultaneously with Ramsey, and the small-ish SRS improvement didn't translate to wins). And Russell didn't get any awards/accolades at the time (not 2nd team, not RotY, no serious MVP contention). He missed a third of the season (and was playing less mpg than he ever would in the future) I just wouldn't put try to frame '57 as "better than Russell"

Anyway, I quite like Pettit here. A couple of issues I have (and they're not huge for me) are


(a) He wasn't the best player in the playoff run when St Louis won the title (unless there was an enormous disparity in non-boxscore contribututions, that was Hagan).
(b) St Louis weren't ever a great team. There were lower standard deviations in SRS at that time, but St Louis are just twice over 2.5 SRS during his prime (then once more on a deep team in his last year, but he missed quite a bit of time that year anyway). Sometimes they were below average (notably so in '62 but also his first three years).

These aren't things that would disqualify him for me here, but perhaps they might warrant discussion.


Petit in the Postseason?

Jumping in here, I remember being really surprised when I learned about Petit and Hagan during the RPoY project. Petit had such a huge reputation and he was routinely getting mention as the best player in the NBA, but once the postseason came along it seemed there was pretty serious question about whether he was the best player on his own team. Petit had the huge game 7 against the Celtics, but before that the playoffs was all Hagan. Here are the numbers that go with it:

1958 Reg season
Petit: 24.6 ppg (49.2% TS), 17.4 reb, 26.3 PER (led NBA), .209 WS/48
Hagan: 19.9 ppg (51.3% TS), 10.1 reb, 22.6 PER, .220 WS/48

1958 playoffs
Petit: 24.2 ppg (47.2% TS), 16.5 reb, 22.6 PER, .134 WS/48
Hagan: 27.7 ppg (57.6% TS), 10.5 reb, 27.5 PER, .312 WS/48

Hagan led the NBA in the 1958 playoffs in scoring, True Shooting Percentage, PER, FG% and WS/48. Essentially, he did in that championship run what I'd have expected Petit to do, and honestly I think superficial analysis leads many to believe that Petit in 1958 DID do what Hagan did. But he really didn't.

And here are the postseasons from 1958 - 961, which include both the championship run of '58 and Petit's 1959 MVP season. While Petit was by seeming consensus a top-2 player in the NBA in this time period, in the playoffs Hagan was seemingly playing him to at worst a draw according to the box scores:

Playoffs
Petit: 26.5 ppg (49.6% TS), 16 rpg, 2.9 apg, PER 22.8, 6.0 Win Shares (.161 WS/48)
Hagan: 25.1 ppg (52.9% TS), 10.3 reb, 3.7 apg, PER 22.5, 7.3 Win SHares (.208 WS/48)

Now, as you alluded to, having a teammate step up isn't necessarily a knock on Petit. However, during RPoY it seemed that Petit had a consistent history of lower numbers in the postseason than the playoffs. Obviously, I believe that this can be explained and/or overblown depending on the situation. But with Petit being known for his offense with scoring as his primary contribution, a consistent postseason let-down in the box scores is at least worth discussion if not cause for concern. I don't know if there may be injury reasons or something that explain some of this? But in addition to the 1958 championship stats above, here are Petit's regular and postseason numbers during his two MVP seasons:

1956
Reg: 25.7 ppg (50.2% TS), 16.2 reb, 27.3 PER (led NBA), .236 WS/48
Post: 19.1 ppg (48.2% TS), 10.5 reb, 21.5 PER, .108 WS/48

1959
Reg: 29.2 ppg (51.9% TS), 16.4 reb, 28.2 PER (led NBA), .246 WS/48
Post: 27.8 ppg (50.4% TS), 12.5 reb, 22.9 PER, .188 WS/48
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#77 » by ceiling raiser » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:19 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Just taken with more basic stats, this was a guy typically scoring well above 20 PPG with meh efficiency on teams that weren't really killing it on offense. Right there if you think like I do that most bigs shouldn't be shooting that much, you have to question whether Ewing was being used correctly.


Patrick Ewing was definitely used incorrectly on offense. This was a guy who came into the league hyped as the next Bill Russell, of course based on defensive potential. He came in raw on offense, but he developed into a 20 PPG scorer based on team need. Unfortunately, NY never had a great offensive team in terms of spacing, creators, or scheme/coaching.

The irony now is that Ewing is being dinged for possible offensive shortcomings when his offensive development exceeded expectations and can be seen as a bonus, all the while Ewing succeeded as a defender by anchoring the greatest defensive dynasty in history post-Russell.


Well said. NY's DRTG rank from 92-99:

92 - 2nd
93 - 1st
94 - 1st
95 - 1st

96 - 4th
97 - 2nd
98 - 4th
99 - 4th

8 straight seasons as a top 5 defense, and 3 years in a row at #1? While most recognize the 90s knicks as very strong defensively, I think this may be getting glossed over. That's really impressive.

Just wondering (and again, I wasn't watching in the late 80s/beginning of the 90s so I can't comment), but is the Riley-Ewing pairing comparable to the Rivers/Thibs-KG pairing when he was traded to Boston, in terms of changes in roles/quality of team defense? They're not exactly the same I guess since the Knicks had more continuity of supporting cast, just a thought though.
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#78 » by lorak » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:19 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Now as I say all this I have to point out, if I gave the overall RAPM for these guys in those years Ewing's numbers are better than Barkley's.

I'll pause there to emphasize it.

You might be thinking, "Bloody hell Doc, how can you possibly go against Ewing if even in those circumstance he comes out on top?"

Thing is, late Barkley truly was awful on defense, and that's was gives Ewing the edge. If Barkley can be anywhere near neutrality, he wins this easily with that offensive edge, and in the end, I have trouble accepting that in his prime when things were truly on the line, Barkley was a major net negative on defense. He was just such an aggressive player getting boards, and steals, and even blocks. I'm not going to say he was great, but to truly claim that he was a millstone on defense and THAT is why I pick some offense-neutral big over him seems really, really bold to me.


I see from where are you coming from, but I disagree with conclusion, because Ewing earlier also was better on offense than from '98 to '00, so his prime RAPM numbers also would look much better. And even at the end of his career he wasn't bad offensive player. To use RAPM:

Code: Select all

YEAR   TYPE   PLAYER   ORAPM   RANK ORAPM   DRAPM   RANK DRAPM   RAPM   RANK RAPM                           
1998   PI      PE      0,3         161      4,1      4         4,4      24
1998   PI      CB      5,1         2      -1,7      379         3,4      36
1999   PI      PE      0,4         143      3,7      11         4,1      25
1999   PI      CB      6,2         1      -2,6      419         3,5      31
2000   PI      PE      0,4         141      3,7      12         4,1      26
2000   PI      CB      5,0         7      -2,0      385         3,1      45





So slightly above average offensive player, that's not bad for someone, who according to box score averaged 51.8 TS%, 99 ortg, 2.1 OWS in 4183 minutes from '98 to '00. During early 90s (from '90 to '92): 57.6 TS%, 112 ortg, 18.8 OWS in 9419 minutes, so really BIG difference and there's no reason to not think that his ORAPM also would be higher, probably more than Barkley's DRAPM, because it's very unlikely Charles was more than slightly positive on defense in his prime.

Doctor MJ wrote:
Re: Mikan. The thing I keep pointing to is that the only time when Mikan was clear cut way ahead of all contemporaries was through '51. Afterwards while he was still good, he's in the same tier with the other best players of his day...none of which do I take very seriously when talking about the #20 player of all-time.


First of all, no one from '52 to '54 produced at the level of Mikan. His WS/48 over that period is 0.264. Second best player (minimum 100 games played), Macauley averaged 0.247 (remember, the bigger the number, the more importance of even small gap) and Johnston with Schayes were 3rd/4th with 0.238 each.

But WS/48 is just one angle to look at production and in the case of 50s even more limited than in current era (unfortunately, because of lack of data from the 50s we have to use everything we have, even limited tools). In Mikan's case we also know that what separates him from his peers is his defensive dominance (one of his Lakers teams was GOAT level on defense, others very good) and that he led Minneapolis to three straight titles in his last three seasons pre shot clock. Really no one from that era comes even close to such overall impact.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#79 » by The Infamous1 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:24 pm

Ewing was a poor passer and shot too many jump shots so in a way he's not the offensive anchor youd like to have(especially compared to Barkley). But he played on teams with Horrible spacing and no legit second option.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #20 

Post#80 » by DannyNoonan1221 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:37 pm

I will probably vote pettit here but need more time to compare.

For Barkley supporters, what makes him better than Artis Gilmore? No one wanted to respond to my post earlier with per100 stats that (taken completely by themselves) would indicate that maybe Artis was better than Barkley offensively?

And then you can throw in the fact that Artis was a 7'2" Center who is 4th in all time blocks. I don't think it takes any bit of stretching to say he had more impact on the defensive end than Barkley.

Again, don't think I would vote for Gilmore here, just trying to figure out what it is that makes Barkley the better player?
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