Open Court: 50 Greatest & Next 10

[cpower]

So like many of you guys probably are I'm a fan of this show and I was happy to see its season debut yesterday.

Ernie was moderating of course and the panel includes - Kenny, Isiah, Reggie, Barkley, Webber, Billups, and Shaq.
Here's the video in its entirity if you haven't seen it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEimrfJuaY&index[/youtube]

Here's a summary if you don't want to watch it all.
First unanimous 6:
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
AI
KG
Dirk

Second unanimous picks:
Dominique Wilkins
Bob Mcadoo
Webber (picked expect Kenny brought up Nash before finally agreeing)

Mentions:
Paul Pierce
Wade
Reggie (He took himself off the list)
T-Mac (Shaq kept throwing names out I think half-jokingly like Penny and GP)
Nash (Barkley accused him of being a "systems player" and Reggie said if he were a GM he'd pick Nash after Kidd and GP in a line-up)

Finally they agreed to the ten by giving Webber the boot and adding Durant and Wade.
So the ten are Duncan/Kobe/Lebron/AI/KG/Dirk/Wilkins/Mcadoo/Durant/Wade

Thoughts?
I thought the whole Webber discussion was pretty hilariously uncomfortable. I get the feeling that he wouldn't have been in the discussion if he weren't sitting there in the room. Also, I feel like there is a disconnect between fans and actual NBA players in regards to Nash. I have this feeling that a little bit underneath the surface a lot of players have a different opinion of Nash then the opinion they state publicly.

guys on the list are the alphas, nash isn't one of them.

Did you more watch Nash and his amazing games vs. San Antonio

yeah and they lost with amare average 37/10.

[Quotatious]

yeah and they lost with amare average 37/10.

Amare was obviously phenomenal in terms of scoring, in that 2005 WCF series, but he allowed a ton of easy points for the Spurs, in the paint. His overall impact was certainly a big positive, but not as good as 37 PPG on 61% TS, would suggest. Even his rebounding wasn't very good.

Suns lost because of three things:

a) Marion was ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE in terms of scoring (he was normally their second scoring option, so him struggling like that, forced PHX to change their gameplan, trying to compensate for Matrix's lack of offensive production) - I mean, 8 PPG on 41% TS, for a guy who was normally a pretty good scorer (averaged 19.4 PPG on 55.6% TS in the 2005 RS, and even 17.6 PPG on 55% TS for the entire 2005 playoffs) - that's definitely one of the worst meltdowns in NBA history.

b) Joe Johnson missed 2 games, and he was one of their best players (his scoring was even more important, because of Marion's struggles)

c) they had very little defensive presence inside. Steven Hunter was their only decent defensive big, and the only true big except Amare (horrible defender) in their rotation, during that series. He didn't even play that many minutes - just about 20-21 per game. As good as Marion was defensively, he's way too small to defend Duncan in the post.

Nash had an excellent series.

Looking at it this way, it's really not that hard to figure out why Phoenix lost.

[JLei]

I found it shocking how intelligent Reggie came off vs. the rest of the guys but then again never thought he was unintelligent about basketball more so than he just is too much of a fan to be a good color commentator (though he's slowly getting better).

Surprised at the disrespect for Wade from a couple of the individuals. Though the smarter guys in the room (Kenny, Isiah (for whatever you think of him he did GM and Coach multiple teams), and Reggie) thought he was unanimous.

Really wished Kerr was still there. Clearly the most intelligent basketball mind that TNT/NBA TV had and he would have defended Nash for sure and for sure would have been 100% on Wade.

I find it hilarious that you can feel Shaq's salt coming through the screen. My opinion of Webber went from he's ok to don't care what he says anymore.

[PaulieWal]

I found it shocking how intelligent Reggie came off vs. the rest of the guys but then again never thought he was unintelligent about basketball more so than he just is too much of a fan to be a good color commentator (though he's slowly getting better).

Surprised at the disrespect for Wade from a couple of the individuals. Though the smarter guys in the room (Kenny, Isiah (for whatever you think of him he did GM and Coach multiple teams), and Reggie) thought he was unanimous.

Really wished Kerr was still there. Clearly the most intelligent basketball mind that TNT/NBA TV had and he would have defended Nash for sure and for sure would have been 100% on Wade.

I find it hilarious that you can feel Shaq's salt coming through the screen. My opinion of Webber went from he's ok to don't care what he says anymore.

Yeah, I was surprised to see Kenny bring up the peak point when he said how many 2 guards were better than Wade at his best? MJ? Kobe? I watched the entire show last night and it's clear why Shaq wasn't pushing for Wade. Webb made the point about media giving Wade the credit for the 06 run and it's definitely that . This isn't to say Shaq wasn't important but you can tell he doesn't like that.

[Quotatious]

Really wished Kerr was still there. Clearly the most intelligent basketball mind that TNT/NBA TV had and he would have defended Nash for sure and for sure would have been 100% on Wade.

Totally agree. Kerr was my favorite guy on the panel, not only for his knowledge/understanding of the game, but I also think he's a pretty funny guy.

IMO Smitty and Bones are the #2 and 3 best "analysts" on TNT/NBA TV. Reggie is decent, as well.

[JLei]

Really wished Kerr was still there. Clearly the most intelligent basketball mind that TNT/NBA TV had and he would have defended Nash for sure and for sure would have been 100% on Wade.

Totally agree. Kerr was my favorite guy on the panel, not only for his knowledge/understanding of the game, but I also think he's a pretty funny guy.

IMO Smitty and Bones are the #2 and 3 best "analysts" on TNT/NBA TV. Reggie is decent, as well.

Reggie on the desk would be great. He's starting to get timing as a color guy but if he wasn't partnered with a top, top PbP guy like Harlan I wouldn't be able to stand him.

Grant Hill is a name you missed. He's fantastic every time he's on this show and he's very intelligent and these guys love him since he was the next guy (much like Webber) when they were playing.

Smitty is good and would be able to have a voice on this panel since they respect him. Brent Barry's opinions I would think would get disregarded by some of the guys there.

[Quotatious]

Grant Hill is a name you missed. He's fantastic every time he's on this show and he's very intelligent and these guys love him since he was the next guy (much like Webber) when they were playing.

Oh, definitely. How could I forget? One of my all-time favorite players, too.

[Laimbeer]

None of this is to say they don't know quite a bit about basketball, but nuanced evaluation of the precise value of a player's game applied over his entire career isn't something you can figure out by just watching him play, or even by playing against him. Those things can help, but you have to get analytical to really get anywhere serious.

So watching them play or even being involved in the games has less to do with it than analytics? You mean continually crunching numbers different ways?

[Sedale Threatt]

I never understand why it has to be eye test or stats. Why can't it be both?

Just about any means of analysis is better than Isiah pushing for McAdoo because he won a couple of championships with the Lakers as their sixth/seventh man.

[Sedale Threatt]

And C-Webb being even debated on is absolutely insane and asinine.

Honest question - because he definitely is or is not top 50?

Even though I strongly disagree that he is Top 50, that's not what I am most frustrated about. The panel tried their damnedest to include him in the Next Top 10, while omitting more worthy players like Pierce/Nash/Wade/etc. C-Webb is easily the guy who will be on the outside looking in.

Yes. I would take all three of those players, as well as Payton and Kidd, over him based on durability alone. Half his seasons in his 20s were impacted pretty substantially by injuries. But of course that's not something that's going to be seriously scrutinized in a debate like this. For me, it's essential.

[KyletheDingbat]

Theory on why the guys disrespected Nash: I bet they see him as a guy they would mercilessly destroy one on one. Yeah, they know the game is 5 on 5 of course and see his impact, but still… Look at him. I've played against guys in leagues that had a positive impact on their teams, maybe more so than me on mine, but because I knew I could beat them one on one I didn't consider them better than me.

[SHAQ32]

I still dont understand how people can still dismiss Nash as a "system player". Phoenix has always been a run and gun organization, and none of their best pgs (Kidd, KJ) have had the level of impact that Nash had.

[colts18]

I love all the contradictory statements made by Isiah in that segment.

First he made a distinction between guys riding the car (the Man) and guys in the car (role players). He hated on Scottie Pippen because I assume he saw him as a #2 which is fair. But then he touts Bob Mcadoo for winning titles as a 6th man even though he was just along for the ride.

Then he proprs up Reggie Miller and Charles Barkley. He mentions that Indiana was nothing without Reggie Miller. Then he mentions that Phoenix was a bad franchise before Barkley got there even though they were a 50+ win team for 4 years straight before he got there.

It's amazing how he got multiple GM jobs and was hired as a head coach. Do owners actually listen to these morons speak before they hire them?

[D Nice]

Pretty sure the people moaning about Wade didn't even watch the segment. It was effectively 2 slots that were open, Kobe/Duncan/Dirk/KG/AI/Lebron were locks and McAdoo/Dominique were snubbed the first time around. This left 2 spots between Wade/KD/Webber, and Wade was actually put on the list at the end. They said they valued longevity and importance to the league, hence Iverson being a lock over Nash/Wade.

[Owly]

Right so this is one of those things they have these guys do from time to time that essentially serve to remind us how little time these guys actually spend thinking in depth on basketball. They were successful basketball players, and now they are on TV because they can have fun doing it and get paid a good amount while continuing to soak in the limelight.

None of this is to say they don't know quite a bit about basketball, but nuanced evaluation of the precise value of a player's game applied over his entire career isn't something you can figure out by just watching him play, or even by playing against him. Those things can help, but you have to get analytical to really get anywhere serious.

So watching them play or even being involved in the games has less to do with it than analytics? You mean continually crunching numbers different ways?

Has less to do with what? Don't undestand that phrasing.

Anyhow, my understanding here is analytical doesn't exclusively mean numbers (though imo, ignoring them or only very superficial use would lead to dubious results), by my interpretation it refers to a process involving some time, rigour, serious thought about the criteria etc. I think this comes through in the first para, which I've re-inserted into your quote.

And C-Webb being even debated on is absolutely insane and asinine.

Honest question - because he definitely is or is not top 50?

Not. If there is a discussion about Webber being top 50, and someone says it's crazy to be discussing it it's because they think he isn't. To think otherwise would be to imagine he's an absolute lock for top 50 (that it's "insane and asinine" to think otherwise) and so have the bottom end of his range as something like 40. And people just don't have that.

[cyclix]

Pretty sure the people moaning about Wade didn't even watch the segment. It was effectively 2 slots that were open, Kobe/Duncan/Dirk/KG/AI/Lebron were locks and McAdoo/Dominique were snubbed the first time around. This left 2 spots between Wade/KD/Webber, and Wade was actually put on the list at the end. They said they valued longevity and importance to the league, hence Iverson being a lock over Nash/Wade.

Wade with 3 rings and career 25.3 PER and .192 WS/48 25-5-6-1.8-1 isn't a lock?

[D Nice]

Pretty sure the people moaning about Wade didn't even watch the segment. It was effectively 2 slots that were open, Kobe/Duncan/Dirk/KG/AI/Lebron were locks and McAdoo/Dominique were snubbed the first time around. This left 2 spots between Wade/KD/Webber, and Wade was actually put on the list at the end. They said they valued longevity and importance to the league, hence Iverson being a lock over Nash/Wade.

Wade with 3 rings and career 25.3 PER and .192 WS/48 25-5-6-1.8-1 isn't a lock?

I don't understand. Are you asking me personally? I've stated on multiple occasions for ME he's a top 25 lock, but you can't possibly ask me to speak on the stance of that group. And per their criteria, no, he isn't a lock. He has 5 elite seasons, every one of their "locks" has 10 except for KD, who is benefiting from the fact he is still going. And in terms of importance to the league Wade doesn't even come close to licking the bottom of Iverson's sneaker.

Again, for me, yes, but considering how they prefaced the discussion, he shouldn't be (for them). His "career PER and WS" mean less than absolutely nothing to me. I actually have access to his box-score vis-a-vis this awesome database @ basketball-refrence.com.

[giordunk]

As much as I like Open Court and think it's great entertainment you have to remember that the players have their own biases and agendas. Take their opinions with a grain of salt. Sometimes they will give good opinions and insights and other times you can tell that they really dislike a particular player lol.

And people posting on an internet forum don't have any biases? I trust these opinions more because they are actual players who understand the pro game more than any of us will ever will. Sure things will get personal (lol @ Pippen reactions) but it's really interesting to hear player opinions on each other.

Also, there are some guys on the Top 50 who probably wouldn't make the Top 50 today after counting in all the new talent (Dave Bing, Dolph Schayes)

I love this logic of yours. They played bball therfore their ranking of other players isn't wrong.

So i guess if they said Dwight>hakeem that would make them right?

Really man? But you watch basketball on your couch and post on forums and you can judge players better? These guys played against them, watched tape on them, and understand the game so much more than anyone on this forum will. They know so much about basketball because they actually played. They know who is a good teammate, who is coachable, who is getting by on hard work and who is getting by on talent.

No one's ranking is right or wrong since no one can agree on one single ranking. Your example sucks ass because no NBA player will ever say Dwight is greater than Hakeem, but if NBA players said something like Dwight Howard's defense is better than Hakeem's, then I would strongly consider that.

[Magic Boo]

Man i knew about Shaq but i didnt knew Webber was such a biatch. Does he really think he was better than Wade or KD?

The disrespect for Wade is so strong. I hope he plays a fantastic season this year.

[cyclix]

(current players)

suRefire TOP 25 players of all time:
Duncan
LeBron
Garnett
Kobe
Dirk
Wade

surefire TOP 50
+ Nash
+ Durant
+ Chris Paul