RealGM Top 100 List #45

[Texas Chuck]

Run-off Vote: Dolph Schayes

while I certainly account for strength of era I also judge a player based on how they played in the only version of the Association they actually had the opportunity to play in. Schayes was a tremendous player for a really long time.

T-Mac is certainly a very talented player but he has very limited team success and before you claim its unfair to hold that against him he missed a number of games every year -- in fact the last year he missed less than 10 he was only 25 years old. That means less RS wins and tougher playoff opponents or in many cases no playoffs at all. And its very hard for me to give him just a ton of credit for great playoff performances when he never played more than 7 games in a single year. And in Houston in particular he has ridiculous usage for a guy shooting that poorly--criminally so for a guy taking that many 3's when he wasn't making any.

Great talent, but top 50 career? No, I can't buy that at all.

[Clyde Frazier]

I'll toss in my hat for Mcgrady here.
VOTE : Big Mac

Great as Dolph was I don't think he was on the level of Mcgrady. Talent gap is pretty big but then again there are few who were equal with T-Mac when it came to raw talent.

The longevitiy gap (3-4 years) isn't enough to sway me.
I also feel like T-Mac got kinda unlucky career wise. Never really had good teams around him. Yao was his first blessing but then he ended up being injury plagued.

It's a little more significant than that. Both players played in 15 seasons. McGrady, however was injury prone throughout his career. In 6 of those 15 seasons, he missed 15+ games in each, and in 2 of those 6, played 35 games or less. Schayes falls at the opposite end of the spectrum, missing only 3 games total in his first 12 seasons, which was essentially his entire prime. McGrady's 8 year prime consisted of 3 seasons where he missed significant time. That's a pretty sharp contrast when looking at their careers as a whole.

[trex_8063]

I'll toss in my hat for Mcgrady here.
VOTE : Big Mac

Great as Dolph was I don't think he was on the level of Mcgrady. Talent gap is pretty big but then again there are few who were equal with T-Mac when it came to raw talent.

The longevitiy gap (3-4 years) isn't enough to sway me.
I also feel like T-Mac got kinda unlucky career wise. Never really had good teams around him. Yao was his first blessing but then he ended up being injury plagued.

It's a little more significant than that. Both players played in 15 seasons. McGrady, however was injury prone throughout his career. In 6 of those 15 seasons, he missed 15+ games in each, and in 2 of those 6, played 35 games or less. Schayes falls at the opposite end of the spectrum, missing only 3 games total in his first 12 seasons, which was essentially his entire prime. McGrady's 8 year prime consisted of 3 seasons where he missed significant time. That's a pretty sharp contrast when looking at their careers as a whole.

I'd actually only consider Tmac's prime about 7 years ('01-'07)---much of it banged up and missing games, as you noted----whereas Schayes had 12-year prime ('50-'61). So the "longevity gap", as RayBan called it, is more like FIVE years.

[Basketballefan]

Run-off Vote: Dolph Schayes

while I certainly account for strength of era I also judge a player based on how they played in the only version of the Association they actually had the opportunity to play in. Schayes was a tremendous player for a really long time.

T-Mac is certainly a very talented player but he has very limited team success and before you claim its unfair to hold that against him he missed a number of games every year -- in fact the last year he missed less than 10 he was only 25 years old. That means less RS wins and tougher playoff opponents or in many cases no playoffs at all. And its very hard for me to give him just a ton of credit for great playoff performances when he never played more than 7 games in a single year. And in Houston in particular he has ridiculous usage for a guy shooting that poorly--criminally so for a guy taking that many 3's when he wasn't making any.

Great talent, but top 50 career? No, I can't buy that at all.

This.

[E-Balla]

Run-off Vote: Dolph Schayes

while I certainly account for strength of era I also judge a player based on how they played in the only version of the Association they actually had the opportunity to play in. Schayes was a tremendous player for a really long time.

T-Mac is certainly a very talented player but he has very limited team success and before you claim its unfair to hold that against him he missed a number of games every year -- in fact the last year he missed less than 10 he was only 25 years old. That means less RS wins and tougher playoff opponents or in many cases no playoffs at all. And its very hard for me to give him just a ton of credit for great playoff performances when he never played more than 7 games in a single year. And in Houston in particular he has ridiculous usage for a guy shooting that poorly--criminally so for a guy taking that many 3's when he wasn't making any.

Great talent, but top 50 career? No, I can't buy that at all.

He also peaked at 23. His 5 year prime is years 21-25. In his prime he wasn't the healthiest but he wasn't injury prone. Plus he was carrying a franchise.

[penbeast0]

Dolph Schayes - trex_8063, Moonbeam, Clyde Frazier, DQuinn1575, Owly, Basketballefan, Chuck Texas


Tracy McGrady - ronnymac2, E-Balla, Notanoob, tsherkin, Ray-Ban Sematra, john248


I don't have either player in my top 50 though both are in my top 100. As I've discussed comparing him to guys like Bob Pettit, Schayes never had more than very good player impact; in the worst era of our comparison, I don't think that's enough. Tmac is a player that never seemed to make his good teams much better; when Yao would go out or (in Toronto) if Vince wasn't playing, TMac looked like Kobe Bryant. If they were, Tmac just looked much more pedestrian. This is strange since a large part of Tmac's value is his good playmaking but from years of watching him, it was something I noticed. Then you add the bad practice habits, his former coaches frequently panned him once he had left, and he just doesn't come up as strong as his numbers would indicate.

No vote here for me; it's 7-6 Schayes with less than an hour to go for the runoff. Fixed, thanks.

[trex_8063]

Dolph Schayes - trex_8063, Moonbeam, Clyde Frazier, DQuinn1575, Owly, Basketballefan, Chuck Texas


Tracy McGrady - ronnymac2, E-Balla, Notanoob, tsherkin, Ray-Ban Sematra,


I don't have either player in my top 50 though both are in my top 100. As I've discussed comparing him to guys like Bob Pettit, Schayes never had more than very good player impact; in the worst era of our comparison, I don't think that's enough. Tmac is a player that never seemed to make his good teams much better; when Yao would go out or (in Toronto) if Vince wasn't playing, TMac looked like Kobe Bryant. If they were, Tmac just looked much more pedestrian. This is strange since a large part of Tmac's value is his good playmaking but from years of watching him, it was something I noticed. Then you add the bad practice habits, his former coaches frequently panned him once he had left, and he just doesn't come up as strong as his numbers would indicate.

No vote here for me; it's 7-5 Schayes with less than an hour to go for the runoff.

Although obv I'm crossing my fingers for Schayes, I must point out a missed vote for TMac: john248 voted TMac (albeit somewhat reluctantly/non-enthusiastically) on post #46 (unless he rescinded that vote and I missed it). So if I'm not mistaken, it's 7-6 in favor of Schayes.

[penbeast0]

OK, Calling this one for Schayes.