Giannis Antetokounmpo vs Andrew Wiggins

[skones]

What isn't especially astute? It's factual is it not? After a monster shooting performance in his last game, on high volume, he still is only shooting 40% from the field, which says that the rest of his start to the season has been entirely lackluster and largely based on volume.

Right, but this is either ignorant or disingenuous. Since I'm familiar with you as a poster, I know you aren't sloppy and you're certainly not a fool. So you've got to be intentionally overlooking the contextual factors or coming fresh to this subject, and that's why I'm trying to assess whether you are intentionally trolling this thread or whether you simply screwed up.

I legitimately don't understand what you're getting at here. The point is that the good game, is an even smaller sample size than what we're already privy to, which is small as it is being what 6 games? Thus a seeming, "I'm going to bump this because I told you so," without providing anything substantial to the conversation rings as a hollow knee jerk reaction.

One good game does not a turned corner make. That's the ultimate point here.

[tsherkin]

I legitimately don't understand what you're getting at here. The point is that the good game, is an even smaller sample size than what we're already privy to, which is small as it is being what 6 games?

Kvetching about his seasonal FG% when he's had a back injury is either intentional trolling or complete lack of context. You pick. If it's the former, you'll want to stop posting in this thread, because you'll get suspended. If it's the latter, that happens to the best of us, so accept and readjust your approach to the thread.

Thus a seeming, "I'm going to bump this because I told you so," without providing anything substantial to the conversation rings as a hollow knee jerk reaction.

This is really not the purview of non-moderators. If you have an issue with a post, use the report function, don't derail or troll a thread in response.

[Ambrose]

Go ahead and bump it, Wiggins is shooting a red hot 40% from the field on the season. Consistency is key.

He's been hurt the entire year. Both games he's looked semi-healthy he's dropped 30 and is shooting 26/49 in those two games. I think it's fair to label you as someone who dislikes Wiggins.

Or 15 of 22 in his last game, and a pretty bleh 11/27 in the game prior. It's fair to label me as someone who dislikes Wiggins, and the reasons why are well documented on these boards. Lack of handle, lack of jumpshot, questionable feel for the game. To his credit, he was able to get to the line at a far better clip last season than I suspected he would, but he's done nothing to alleviate the other concerns I had with regards to his play. I don't think he'll ever make guys around him better, and his desire to be "the guy," remains in question.

This just shows you haven't really watched him at all. But hey go ahead and cherry-pick his 40% shooting 6 games into a year he's been playing hurt. It'll just be more fun when you're proven wrong by the end of the year.

[skones]

He's been hurt the entire year. Both games he's looked semi-healthy he's dropped 30 and is shooting 26/49 in those two games. I think it's fair to label you as someone who dislikes Wiggins.

Or 15 of 22 in his last game, and a pretty bleh 11/27 in the game prior. It's fair to label me as someone who dislikes Wiggins, and the reasons why are well documented on these boards. Lack of handle, lack of jumpshot, questionable feel for the game. To his credit, he was able to get to the line at a far better clip last season than I suspected he would, but he's done nothing to alleviate the other concerns I had with regards to his play. I don't think he'll ever make guys around him better, and his desire to be "the guy," remains in question.

This just shows you haven't really watched him at all. But hey go ahead and cherry-pick his 40% shooting 6 games into a year he's been playing hurt. It'll just be more fun when you're proven wrong by the end of the year.

I'm not cherry picking anything. He's had a poor start to the season. I don't think he's a 40% shooter on the season, but he's been a poor jump shooter throughout his NBA career. The percentages are there last season as well from a variety of distances. In order for any concerns to be alleviated by his shooting, for me, he'll need to shoot at a more efficient clip on a consistent basis.

[Ambrose]

Or 15 of 22 in his last game, and a pretty bleh 11/27 in the game prior. It's fair to label me as someone who dislikes Wiggins, and the reasons why are well documented on these boards. Lack of handle, lack of jumpshot, questionable feel for the game. To his credit, he was able to get to the line at a far better clip last season than I suspected he would, but he's done nothing to alleviate the other concerns I had with regards to his play. I don't think he'll ever make guys around him better, and his desire to be "the guy," remains in question.

This just shows you haven't really watched him at all. But hey go ahead and cherry-pick his 40% shooting 6 games into a year he's been playing hurt. It'll just be more fun when you're proven wrong by the end of the year.

I'm not cherry picking anything. He's had a poor start to the season. I don't think he's a 40% shooter on the season, but he's been a poor jump shooter throughout his NBA career. The percentages are there last season as well from a variety of distances. In order for any concerns to be alleviated by his shooting, for me, he'll need to shoot at a more efficient clip on a consistent basis.

What kind of argument is this? Of course he's a poor shooter based on his career, he's only played one year. Lots of player couldn't shoot as rookies.

[skones]

This just shows you haven't really watched him at all. But hey go ahead and cherry-pick his 40% shooting 6 games into a year he's been playing hurt. It'll just be more fun when you're proven wrong by the end of the year.

I'm not cherry picking anything. He's had a poor start to the season. I don't think he's a 40% shooter on the season, but he's been a poor jump shooter throughout his NBA career. The percentages are there last season as well from a variety of distances. In order for any concerns to be alleviated by his shooting, for me, he'll need to shoot at a more efficient clip on a consistent basis.

What kind of argument is this? Of course he's a poor shooter based on his career, he's only played one year. Lots of player couldn't shoot as rookies.

Precisely. Thus development in that area, as it pertains to this season, is key for him moving forward. I've never denied that there's been a small sample size this season, only that in it, he has still been poor. Obviously he was dealing with an injury at some point, it may have subsided directly before his blow up game, it may have subsided earlier, or it still may be lingering. I'm just saying a blowup game is not a representative sample size, just as an early season stretch of a handful of games is not a representative sample size. It'll eventually come down to his entire body of work, and his jump shooting percentage will be a primary indicator of how much work he put in during the offseason, and how much he's going to get out of it.

[Ambrose]

I'm not cherry picking anything. He's had a poor start to the season. I don't think he's a 40% shooter on the season, but he's been a poor jump shooter throughout his NBA career. The percentages are there last season as well from a variety of distances. In order for any concerns to be alleviated by his shooting, for me, he'll need to shoot at a more efficient clip on a consistent basis.

What kind of argument is this? Of course he's a poor shooter based on his career, he's only played one year. Lots of player couldn't shoot as rookies.

Precisely. Thus development in that area, as it pertains to this season, is key for him moving forward. I've never denied that there's been a small sample size this season, only that in it, he has still been poor. Obviously he was dealing with an injury at some point, it may have subsided directly before his blow up game, it may have subsided earlier, or it still may be lingering. I'm just saying a blowup game is not a representative sample size, just as an early season stretch of a handful of games is not a representative sample size. It'll eventually come down to his entire body of work, and his jump shooting percentage will be a primary indicator of how much work he put in during the offseason, and how much he's going to get out of it.

I agree and I think the results by the end of the year will be promising.

[Dr Positivity]

Well Wiggins is flying high now and Giannis regressed. Wiggins is taking tons of jumpers though, will see if he can keep up these %s over the long term.

[Dcebucks11]

Well Wiggins is flying high now and Giannis regressed. Wiggins is taking tons of jumpers though, will see if he can keep up these %s over the long term.

Yep, Wiggins is light years better on offense. Still not sure Giannis is even future all star material tbh.. Wiggins makes it look easy, guy just needs time.

[Dr Positivity]

Wiggins is weird where he's seemingly no more than ok ball handler and shooter, and yet comes off as a polished, balanced, fundamental player anyways. There is a difference between his style of play and say Oladipo or Giannis that is hard to explain just by saying they have this level of shooting and this level of ball handling, or even this level of basketball IQ. Wiggins just has extra levels of finesse. I am guessing he was well coached growing up.

[RSCD3_]

Wiggins is weird where he's seemingly no more than ok ball handler and shooter, and yet comes off as a polished, balanced, fundamental player anyways. There is a difference between his style of play and say Oladipo or Giannis that is hard to explain just by saying they have this level of shooting and this level of ball handling, or even this level of basketball IQ. Wiggins just has extra levels of finesse. I am guessing he was well coached growing up.

Is poise the word your looking for? For such an athletic long player, he seems to have a style and grace to his movements.

Very efficient in his movements but he still has rockets in his legs.

[Illmatic12]

Wiggins doesn't even really have a 'go to' move yet, that's the crazy thing about his potential. He can put up 20+ points just of raw talent, and displaying an array of fluid moves - yet you can tell he doesn't even fully know how to attack defenses yet.

He reminds me of a younger Durant in that sense. The natural scoring talent is just oozing out of him, he doesn't even know how to use it yet in the most efficient manner. If you're just looking at his rookie/soph year shooting splits, you're completely missing the boat with this guy. I laugh at the comments harping on his shooting %s. Year 3-4 was when Durant really became a machine. Wiggins will follow a similar path of figuring out NBA defenses. In another two years he's either gonna score on you or you'll put him on the line for FTs - the poor defenders simply will have no choice in the matter. And as he bulks up, naturally develops his 'grown man strength' in the low post and finishing at the rim.. lmao. Forget about it


I think he'll end up being a good passer as well. His assist totals don't show it YET but Wiggins sees the floor well, he's not one of those chuckers with tunnel vision. In a few years, once his ballhandling has improved you're going to see his assists take a leap to 4+ apg, because he'll be able to draw a ton of defensive attention and hit the open man on the weakside.

[Zeitgeister]

I've got some hope that Wiggins can be a pretty good three point shooter. His three point shot really dropped in the second half of last season but he was only taking like 1 three a game. I think he needs to get in a bit of a rythym from there. In the preseason he shot the three well and so far into the regular season he's shooting 36% from 3. That would be pretty big for his development if he can have even a solid three point shot to go with his strong finishing around the rim and free throw drawing ability. I've been pretty confident in his scoring and I'm glad to see that he's recovered nicely from that back injury.

[spearsy23]

Wiggins doesn't even really have a 'go to' move yet, that's the crazy thing about his potential. He can put up 20+ points just of raw talent, and displaying an array of fluid moves - yet you can tell he doesn't even fully know how to attack defenses yet.

He reminds me of a younger Durant in that sense. The natural scoring talent is just oozing out of him, he doesn't even know how to use it yet in the most efficient manner. If you're just looking at his rookie/soph year shooting splits, you're completely missing the boat with this guy. I laugh at the comments harping on his shooting %s. Year 3-4 was when Durant really became a machine. Wiggins will follow a similar path of figuring out NBA defenses. In another two years he's either gonna score on you or you'll put him on the line for FTs - the poor defenders simply will have no choice in the matter. And as he bulks up, naturally develops his 'grown man strength' in the low post and finishing at the rim.. lmao. Forget about it


I think he'll end up being a good passer as well. His assist totals don't show it YET but Wiggins sees the floor well, he's not one of those chuckers with tunnel vision. In a few years, once his ballhandling has improved you're going to see his assists take a leap to 4+ apg, because he'll be able to draw a ton of defensive attention and hit the open man on the weakside.

Durant has the natural advantage due to his height and release point making it almost impossible to challenge his shot. Durant's signature shot is probably the the little hesitation dribble that gets the defender slightly on their heels, then he hops into a pull-up 3, it works because Durant only needs that slight balance shift and then guys can't get a hand in his face. Guys that aren't as tall just can't get away with that.

Wiggins will have to be more like Carmelo if he is going to be a volume scorer (unless his handles improve significantly), he'll need an array of moves from different places. The good thing is that he basically already has them, he just hasn't perfected any of them. A guy that quick with the type of footwork he seems to be developing is just unfair. I just don't really think he looks like a natural scorer, I.e. Durant, he looks like an off the charts athlete who is learning super quickly.

[spearsy23]

I've got some hope that Wiggins can be a pretty good three point shooter. His three point shot really dropped in the second half of last season but he was only taking like 1 three a game. I think he needs to get in a bit of a rythym from there. In the preseason he shot the three well and so far into the regular season he's shooting 36% from 3. That would be pretty big for his development if he can have even a solid three point shot to go with his strong finishing around the rim and free throw drawing ability. I've been pretty confident in his scoring and I'm glad to see that he's recovered nicely from that back injury.

At KU he looked like he would develop a pretty good one. I'd be surprised if he wasn't a 38% guy on medium volume at some point.

[Dcebucks11]

Wiggins doesn't even really have a 'go to' move yet, that's the crazy thing about his potential. He can put up 20+ points just of raw talent, and displaying an array of fluid moves - yet you can tell he doesn't even fully know how to attack defenses yet.

He reminds me of a younger Durant in that sense. The natural scoring talent is just oozing out of him, he doesn't even know how to use it yet in the most efficient manner. If you're just looking at his rookie/soph year shooting splits, you're completely missing the boat with this guy. I laugh at the comments harping on his shooting %s. Year 3-4 was when Durant really became a machine. Wiggins will follow a similar path of figuring out NBA defenses. In another two years he's either gonna score on you or you'll put him on the line for FTs - the poor defenders simply will have no choice in the matter. And as he bulks up, naturally develops his 'grown man strength' in the low post and finishing at the rim.. lmao. Forget about it


I think he'll end up being a good passer as well. His assist totals don't show it YET but Wiggins sees the floor well, he's not one of those chuckers with tunnel vision. In a few years, once his ballhandling has improved you're going to see his assists take a leap to 4+ apg, because he'll be able to draw a ton of defensive attention and hit the open man on the weakside.

Durant has the natural advantage due to his height and release point making it almost impossible to challenge his shot. Durant's signature shot is probably the the little hesitation dribble that gets the defender slightly on their heels, then he hops into a pull-up 3, it works because Durant only needs that slight balance shift and then guys can't get a hand in his face. Guys that aren't as tall just can't get away with that.

Wiggins will have to be more like Carmelo if he is going to be a volume scorer (unless his handles improve significantly), he'll need an array of moves from different places. The good thing is that he basically already has them, he just hasn't perfected any of them. A guy that quick with the type of footwork he seems to be developing is just unfair. I just don't really think he looks like a natural scorer, I.e. Durant, he looks like an off the charts athlete who is learning super quickly.

True, I don't see him reaching Durants Kind of efficiency. Durant has averaged 60% TS for his career which is incredible for the volume of shots he takes.

He's more T mac to me on offense for sure..

[Illmatic12]

Durant has the natural advantage due to his height and release point making it almost impossible to challenge his shot. Durant's signature shot is probably the the little hesitation dribble that gets the defender slightly on their heels, then he hops into a pull-up 3, it works because Durant only needs that slight balance shift and then guys can't get a hand in his face. Guys that aren't as tall just can't get away with that.

Wiggins will have to be more like Carmelo if he is going to be a volume scorer (unless his handles improve significantly), he'll need an array of moves from different places. The good thing is that he basically already has them, he just hasn't perfected any of them. A guy that quick with the type of footwork he seems to be developing is just unfair. I just don't really think he looks like a natural scorer, I.e. Durant, he looks like an off the charts athlete who is learning super quickly.

Don't see Wiggins height as an issue, he can get his shot off just fine. In this highlight alone, he pretty much displays several moves that are going to be indefensible:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g99YAhRoKJY[/youtube]

^At 2:00, 2:30 you see how much space he creates with his stepback jumper, he gets great elevation and has a lightning quick one-motion release. No defender is bothering that shot, ever. His release is just too quick and he jumps too high - in theory he can get that shot whenever he wants for the rest of his career, it's only just a matter of perfecting his shooting touch.

Durant himself is an outlier, that was just one example of a player realizing how to use his natural talents to score most effectively. Another is McGrady who is the same size as Wiggins. Once TMac perfected his turnaround J and one dribble pullup, he realized he could just shoot over opposing wings like they weren't there, at that point he became indefensible. AW just has to avoid the trap of falling in love with that jumper like Tmac or Melo did, since with his first step he can draw fouls at will and keep the d off balance.


Wiggins dad was a pro player, he didn't just start learning how to the put the ball in the hoop. If anything, I think people underrated his natural scoring ability because his early highlights lended themselves more to dunks and so on. Even back to his HS days, iirc he was a bigtime scorer, and he always had the same great balance and elevation on his jumper.

What's limiting his ceiling is his ballhandling, that's why he's not able to produce ridiculous volume of offense in transition like Durant or a prime McGrady. But as far as halfcourt production goes, I don't see why he can't eventually draw FTs and create his shot in the halfcourt just as well.

[crazy_me_87]

Don't see Wiggins height as an issue, he can get his shot off just fine. In this highlight alone, he pretty much displays several moves that are going to be indefensible:

^At 2:00, 2:30 you see how much space he creates with his stepback jumper, he gets great elevation and has a lightning quick one-motion release. No defender is bothering that shot, ever. His release is just too quick and he jumps too high - in theory he can get that shot whenever he wants for the rest of his career, it's only just a matter of perfecting his shooting touch.

Durant himself is an outlier, that was just one example of a player realizing how to use his natural talents to score most effectively. Another is McGrady who is the same size as Wiggins. Once TMac perfected his turnaround J and one dribble pullup, he realized he could just shoot over opposing wings like they weren't there, at that point he became indefensible. AW just has to avoid the trap of falling in love with that jumper like Tmac or Melo did, since with his first step he can draw fouls at will and keep the d off balance.


Wiggins dad was a pro player, he didn't just start learning how to the put the ball in the hoop. If anything, I think people underrated his natural scoring ability because his early highlights lended themselves more to dunks and so on. Even back to his HS days, iirc he was a bigtime scorer, and he always had the same great balance and elevation on his jumper.

What's limiting his ceiling is his ballhandling, that's why he's not able to produce ridiculous volume of offense in transition like Durant or a prime McGrady. But as far as halfcourt production goes, I don't see why he can't eventually draw FTs and create his shot in the halfcourt just as well.

Lets be real here for a moment and remember that Durant in his first 3 or even 4 years was not the Ball handler and passer he has become.

In his first 2 seasons you just didnt want KD taking any dribbles he was that bad. Wiggins is at least not worse than year 1 and 2 Durant at ballhandling. maybe he is even a bit better.

I think over time WIggins will develop simillar to KD in that regard. He will become a servicable ballhandler and his assists will climb just because He will draw so much defensive attention that his Teammates will automaticly be free.

KD is not a elite ballhandler or passer until today. he has developed his handling to a point though were its solid enough to not hinder him anymore and he never had Lebron like passing instincts either and averaged over 4.5apg for the last 3 seasons if you combine the averages. Thats because of the attention he draws.

I am NOT saying Wiggins will be as good as KD!! I am just saying i expect his handling and passing to develop simillary to KDs.

I think Wiggins will be Vince Carter with all NBA defense... or a better Paul George.
He will end up as a elite defensive wing who puts up 28/5/4 in his prime. Not the Scorer as a KD or the passer as a T-Mac but better on defense as both of them making an elite two way package.

[MiltownHawkeye]

Well Wiggins is flying high now and Giannis regressed. Wiggins is taking tons of jumpers though, will see if he can keep up these %s over the long term.

Yep, Wiggins is light years better on offense. Still not sure Giannis is even future all star material tbh.. Wiggins makes it look easy, guy just needs time.

I would love to place a bet against Giannis NOT being an All-Star at least once in his career. That sounds like easy money.

[Illmatic12]

I agree mostly with what you're saying. But I watched KD from his HS days, the one thing I will say is that his improvement as a ballhandler is completely unprecedented for me, I have never seen a player improve their handling that much in a span of 4-5 years.

So I don't want to just automatically project that level of improvement onto Wiggins. Durant is regularly top 3 in transition points every single year for the past 4-5 seasons (usually trading places with either Lebron or James Harden for the top spot).. can't just assume that Wiggins becomes this next level, open-court beast like KD who is basically a generational talent in that area.

He could *possibly* get to the KD level of handles, or he could improve to a Paul George level, or maybe he tops out merely at the Rudy Gay level. Wiggins handles will largely determine his ultimate ceiling, but how much he improves them is up to him.

But yeah, Carter with defense (and hopefully less settling for jumpers) or a Paul George who's elite at drawing fouls, those are exactly two comparisons I've thrown around in the past for AW. 28ppg/4rpg/4apg on 56-58 TS%, something like that, I feel very comfortable projecting those #s for AW's prime. He needs to step up the rebounding though, if he's moving to SF full time he needs to be pulling down more boards.


And wrt this thread, I like Giannis a lot, but he doesn't possess that kind of scoring talent. Compared to Wiggins, he's not remotely as fluid or competent in the half court. Even when he has an advantage on his defender, he doesn't always know what to do. At some point it's late in the game for guys to develop those instincts to an elite level. Wiggins is accustomed to dropping 40,50,60 points games since he was a young child whereas Giannis picked up the game late. If GA develops a legit post game that will help a lot, especially with being able to draw fouls and slow things down in the half court.