Damian Lillard VS Kyrie Irving

[homecourtloss]

For me, I don't think Lillard could do what Irving did in the NBA finals. At the same time, the sample size is extremely small so we have to be careful with drawing conclusions from just the Finals. It is fun discussing them, but when drawing conclusions on an ORtg difference of .7 when one of the players was injured just seems...flawed to me.

You're right it isn't a direct comp, but Lillard has been fine postseason while Kyrie had essentially one great series. I've done this before and didn't want to come into the thread, but I've broken it down 100 times, and take Lillard.

CJ McCollum averaged 21 points last year with a pretty solid 54 TS% and actually put up some solid numbers against GSW, which is still a really good defensive team. Portland's coaching and CJ McCollum's emergence as one of the league's better two guards were probably nearly as responsible for the Trail Blazers successful season as Dame was. K.Love vs. CJ isn't all that clear cut. Both are pretty much fringe all star level players at this point, with CJ honest to god being more useful in a bunch of situations. You're also blatantly ignoring the fact that Kyrie was:

1. 4-6 years younger than Dame was this past year.
2. On a team that was actively tanking for at least a year.
3. Playing with Dion Waiters, who is only getting $2.3 million this year. CJ? He's getting $23 million. I

Basically, there's nothing that you're saying that truly proves Kyrie couldn't lead a decent team to the playoffs. You probably think Dame is better than AD too, since AD missed the playoffs, and AD's team from this year was still better than Kyrie's pre-lebron teams.

Also,no, if you truly believe the Cavs would be as bad as they were before LeBron got there, you're crazy. Love, JR, Iman, Channing Frye, Dunleavy are all much better players than their counterparts on the Cavs teams of 2012-2014. Kyrie Irving is now 3 years older than he was during those years as well.

But since you're going to look at things in a vacuum let's look at this: Kyrie was far more successful as a 1B than Dame ever was. Kyrie torched the league's best defense and outplayed the league's supposed best player. We don't technically know that Kyrie can lead a team to the playoffs as it's best player. But what we do know, without a doubt, is that Kyrie can be a team's second best player and win a chip. Dame has not proven that he can do that. He had LMA, and still played "meh" at best. In an era of super teams, unless you're one of the league's top 8 players, that's more important than leading an average team to the playoffs "by yourself." Dame and Bron' don;t win a chip if they're on the same team. LeBron couldn't survive Dame missing layups and chucking contested threes.

Wait huh? Irving hasn't been as good as Dame as a 1b, he's had a better 1a. There's a pretty big difference there. Dame comes out better in pretty much every overall metric I can find. To add, Love vs. CJ is way clear cut, I mean I can't fathom how little someone thinks of Love for that to be true. If you swap these 2 you improve the Cavs to me with no doubt and the Blazers are worse by a good margin.

Dame also had a bunch of good defensive players and other capable role players. You make it sound like Kyrie was just riding LeBron's coattails, even when he was draining fadeaway jumpers and hitting ridiculous reverse layups at a high clip. It's almost impossible for a 1B to play better than Kyrie just did. You could argue he was the second best player in the whole playoffs. With Kyrie as a 1B, the Cavs won a championship with him getting 25 ppg 5 assists with 2 turnovers and 2 steals while shooting on 48/44/88 splits.Dame has NEVER come close to that in the playoffs, and most of Kyrie's points came off the dribble, so I don't really see how Lebron had much to do with him getting them. My point is that Kyrie maxed out as a 1B player. Literally, I'm not sure anyone's done a better job at it than him. He had the highest game score for a 1B or 2 in the NBA Finals ever. I think it was higher than Kobe's. Put Kyrie in any situation where there are good defenders and or with another capable star, and he's getting his 24 ppg on 54-58 TS%. I just don't know if that's true of Dame in the playoffs. Peep DWade's stats from the 2011 playoffs, and compare them with Kyrie's from the 2016 playoffs.

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/78 splits with 4.4 assists 7.1 rpg 1.3 blocks and 1.6 steals on a 30% usage rate
Kyrie 2016 playoffs: 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds 1.7 steals .6 blocks on a 30% usage rate.

When you consider Kyrie's shooting, it's clear that his postseason was comparable to peak Dwade's with LeBron. Ask yourself: is Dame really capable of this? In my view, no. He's not nearly the athlete and slasher that DWade was, and his midrange game isn't refined enough, he can't create space at will. He's a shooter that scores a lot of points.

Kyrie was very good offensively, but awful defensively other than the last three games which is in itself hard to believe. Wade was still good defensively in 2011. Kylie was awful,defensively in the regular season and playoffs so it's hard to compare them like you have done.

As to the larger point, Lollards also sucks on defense so I'm still taking Kyrie, but you can't compare him to 2011 Wade as a whole.

[getrichordie]

I'd take Lillard over Kyrie any day of the week. He's more athletic, can distribute when he needs to, but can also score when he wants. Basically Kyrie, but can distribute the ball better and that's what puts him ahead of Kyrie. I don't think Kyrie could carry a team like POR into the playoffs the way Lillard did.


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[Pelly24]

You're right it isn't a direct comp, but Lillard has been fine postseason while Kyrie had essentially one great series. I've done this before and didn't want to come into the thread, but I've broken it down 100 times, and take Lillard.


Wait huh? Irving hasn't been as good as Dame as a 1b, he's had a better 1a. There's a pretty big difference there. Dame comes out better in pretty much every overall metric I can find. To add, Love vs. CJ is way clear cut, I mean I can't fathom how little someone thinks of Love for that to be true. If you swap these 2 you improve the Cavs to me with no doubt and the Blazers are worse by a good margin.

Dame also had a bunch of good defensive players and other capable role players. You make it sound like Kyrie was just riding LeBron's coattails, even when he was draining fadeaway jumpers and hitting ridiculous reverse layups at a high clip. It's almost impossible for a 1B to play better than Kyrie just did. You could argue he was the second best player in the whole playoffs. With Kyrie as a 1B, the Cavs won a championship with him getting 25 ppg 5 assists with 2 turnovers and 2 steals while shooting on 48/44/88 splits.Dame has NEVER come close to that in the playoffs, and most of Kyrie's points came off the dribble, so I don't really see how Lebron had much to do with him getting them. My point is that Kyrie maxed out as a 1B player. Literally, I'm not sure anyone's done a better job at it than him. He had the highest game score for a 1B or 2 in the NBA Finals ever. I think it was higher than Kobe's. Put Kyrie in any situation where there are good defenders and or with another capable star, and he's getting his 24 ppg on 54-58 TS%. I just don't know if that's true of Dame in the playoffs. Peep DWade's stats from the 2011 playoffs, and compare them with Kyrie's from the 2016 playoffs.

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/78 splits with 4.4 assists 7.1 rpg 1.3 blocks and 1.6 steals on a 30% usage rate
Kyrie 2016 playoffs: 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds 1.7 steals .6 blocks on a 30% usage rate.

When you consider Kyrie's shooting, it's clear that his postseason was comparable to peak Dwade's with LeBron. Ask yourself: is Dame really capable of this? In my view, no. He's not nearly the athlete and slasher that DWade was, and his midrange game isn't refined enough, he can't create space at will. He's a shooter that scores a lot of points.

Kyrie was very good offensively, but awful defensively other than the last three games which is in itself hard to believe. Wade was still good defensively in 2011. Kylie was awful,defensively in the regular season and playoffs so it's hard to compare them like you have done.

As to the larger point, Lollards also sucks on defense so I'm still taking Kyrie, but you can't compare him to 2011 Wade as a whole.

Kyrie was arguably more impactful than Dwade's 2011 postseason. Kyrie's defense is usually awful, but other than one or two games against Toronto, he was solid defensively throughout the entire playoffs, and was every bit as good, if not better, offensively than DWade. His 3point shooting was huge.

[Pelly24]

I'd take Lillard over Kyrie any day of the week. He's more athletic, can distribute when he needs to, but can also score when he wants. Basically Kyrie, but can distribute the ball better and that's what puts him ahead of Kyrie. I don't think Kyrie could carry a team like POR into the playoffs the way Lillard did.


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More athletic? Dame jumps higher, but he isn't nearly as fast or agile and kyrie's body control is much better. Conversely, I don't think Dame is winning the chip with lebron this year

[homecourtloss]

Dame also had a bunch of good defensive players and other capable role players. You make it sound like Kyrie was just riding LeBron's coattails, even when he was draining fadeaway jumpers and hitting ridiculous reverse layups at a high clip. It's almost impossible for a 1B to play better than Kyrie just did. You could argue he was the second best player in the whole playoffs. With Kyrie as a 1B, the Cavs won a championship with him getting 25 ppg 5 assists with 2 turnovers and 2 steals while shooting on 48/44/88 splits.Dame has NEVER come close to that in the playoffs, and most of Kyrie's points came off the dribble, so I don't really see how Lebron had much to do with him getting them. My point is that Kyrie maxed out as a 1B player. Literally, I'm not sure anyone's done a better job at it than him. He had the highest game score for a 1B or 2 in the NBA Finals ever. I think it was higher than Kobe's. Put Kyrie in any situation where there are good defenders and or with another capable star, and he's getting his 24 ppg on 54-58 TS%. I just don't know if that's true of Dame in the playoffs. Peep DWade's stats from the 2011 playoffs, and compare them with Kyrie's from the 2016 playoffs.

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/78 splits with 4.4 assists 7.1 rpg 1.3 blocks and 1.6 steals on a 30% usage rate
Kyrie 2016 playoffs: 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds 1.7 steals .6 blocks on a 30% usage rate.

When you consider Kyrie's shooting, it's clear that his postseason was comparable to peak Dwade's with LeBron. Ask yourself: is Dame really capable of this? In my view, no. He's not nearly the athlete and slasher that DWade was, and his midrange game isn't refined enough, he can't create space at will. He's a shooter that scores a lot of points.

Kyrie was very good offensively, but awful defensively other than the last three games which is in itself hard to believe. Wade was still good defensively in 2011. Kylie was awful,defensively in the regular season and playoffs so it's hard to compare them like you have done.

As to the larger point, Lollards also sucks on defense so I'm still taking Kyrie, but you can't compare him to 2011 Wade as a whole.

Kyrie was arguably more impactful than Dwade's 2011 postseason. Kyrie's defense is usually awful, but other than one or two games against Toronto, he was solid defensively throughout the entire playoffs, and was every bit as good, if not better, offensively than DWade. His 3point shooting was huge.

No, he wasn't solid defensively--he was awful other than against the Warriors of all teams in those final three games.

Cavs' defensive rating with Kyrie on court: 109.2
Cavs' defensive rating with Kylie off court: 94.6

They were nearly 15 points per 100 possessions WORSE on defense with Kyrie out on court. He was a NET Negative against the Pistons because of how bad his defense (and others') was.

His tracking data show,that he wasn't much of a defender in the playoffs either.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202681/tracking/defense/?p=kyrie-irving&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs

[Pelly24]

Kyrie was very good offensively, but awful defensively other than the last three games which is in itself hard to believe. Wade was still good defensively in 2011. Kylie was awful,defensively in the regular season and playoffs so it's hard to compare them like you have done.

As to the larger point, Lollards also sucks on defense so I'm still taking Kyrie, but you can't compare him to 2011 Wade as a whole.

Kyrie was arguably more impactful than Dwade's 2011 postseason. Kyrie's defense is usually awful, but other than one or two games against Toronto, he was solid defensively throughout the entire playoffs, and was every bit as good, if not better, offensively than DWade. His 3point shooting was huge.

No, he wasn't solid defensively--he was awful other than against the Warriors of all teams in those final three games.

Cavs' defensive rating with Kyrie on court: 109.2
Cavs' defensive rating with Kylie off court: 94.6

They were nearly 15 points per 100 possessions WORSE on defense with Kyrie out on court. He was a NET Negative against the Pistons because of how bad his defense (and others') was.

His tracking data show,that he wasn't much of a defender in the playoffs either.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202681/tracking/defense/?p=kyrie-irving&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs

Every point guard he played scored below their average rates, and defense isnt that important for point guards. He wasn't great in the playoffs, but I saw much better effort and hustle.

EDIT: I'm prob. underestimating Wade's defensive impact, but Wade did have a pretty subpar series against the Bulls that year. I think Kyrie was a more devastating offensive force for his playoff run than Wade was. Wade looked genuinely confused against the Mavs and the Bulls because they made him take jumpers, even though he played really well against the Mavs. Don't think that Mavs defense was better than GSW's either. Kyrie's jumper was just as pure as it got in the P/O's in 2016

[rasta_marley]

Here's what I'll say about that: Dame still played with another top 12-15 player in LMA, and he still had a great perimeter defender next to him and a few other good role players. Dame still shot under 40% or around in all of his trips to the playoffs. Dame had a better streak of scoring than any Kyrie has had this season, but we've never seen him sustain any significant playoff success, and here's why: He's not as well-rounded an offensive player as Kyrie. Dame isn't as quick or crafty as Kyrie, his standing reach is lower than Kyrie's by four inches, his body control isn't as good so he's not as good of a finisher, and he's a much worse midrange shooter, while only arguably being a slightly better 3ball shooter. When Dame's not hitting his long range jumpers, his offense goes to hell. When Kyrie isn't hitting his 3ball, he can still be a one man fastbreak and score in transition. He can still hit floaters and fadeaway Kobe jumpshots. He's athletic and quick enough to slither through any defense and make reverse layups. Dame literally looked completely flustered by Klay Thompson. Another thing that's underrated about the Trail Blazers is the rapid improvement of CJ McCollum as probably an Eastern Conference All Star level player. That was as big of a reason for their success as Dame's play, or at least not too much less of one. That Trail Blazers team is MUCH better than Kyrie's pre-lebron Cavs. And Kyrie was also 19-21 years old, while Dame was 25 years old this past season, so not a good comparison. Overall, I haven't seen anything that says Kyrie definitely can't lead a team with decent talent to the playoffs. However, I have seen that Dame is not on the same level as Harden, Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Tony Parker a few years ago, and honestly, he was getting outplayed by Mike Conley before Conley got his face destroyed. Truth is, Dame is not someone who is capable of outplaying the best players in the NBA during a playoff series. Kyrie was definitely helped out by LeBron, but Kyrie arguably helped LeBron out almost as much as vice versa. Kyrie had a 30% usage rate during the playoffs while averaging 25 ppg on 48/44/91 splits with 5 assists and only 2 turnovers. He also averaged like 2 steals and half a block a game. Kyrie had a 24.7 PER during the playoffs. He was basically an elite shooting guard this past postseason. He was, no exaggerating, 2011 DWade this past postseason. Either that or 2002 Kobe. It was a postseason that rivals almost any other guard's over the past 10 years. He had LeBron, but he was also as successful as you can possibly be, so it's not like you can say anyone would have done better, because he did literally as well as it could be done by beating a banged up, but still elite team in the NBA finals, while putting up numbers that would easily get you Finals MVP most years. I just haven't seen any indication that Dame can do that. Those shots Kyrie was very efficiently hitting all playoffs aren't shots that anyone in the league now can hit regularly.

You based you post on playoff success... Which kyrie didn't sniff till lebron came to town..... And still wouldnt if lebron hadnt came.

I will say this... I wish lillard could finish around the basket like irving can.. Whoa man id forgotten the things irving could do around the hoop.

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It's funny how people hold Kyrie responsible for not making the playoffs, but then don't hold dame responsible for not winning a championship this year and not playing well when he DID have another star player, lol. I could see if Kyrie had underperformed in his two playoff seasons. But the fact is that Kyrie could not have done much better than he did individually. Kyrie gets an "A" or an "A+" for his playoff performances. Dame gets a "B" or "B+" at BEST for all of his postseason performances. His numbers always dropped across the board whether or not he played with another star. He got locked up against the clippers and the warriors. Not an apples to apples comparison, but its not like Dame has proven he can be successful against teams in the playoffs at any level. Kyrie has done so for two straight seasons, even coming off an injury.

I think I see what you are trying to say but the fact remains that lillard took the blazers to the playoffs (and lets not forget a lot of people were not big on that team, most had us not making the playoffs a lot of that credit goes to dame as a player and a leader) and kyrie did not take the cavs to any playoffs, and still might not have without LeBron. Furthermore if Lillard had a player like Lebron next to him his playoff performance would have been much better as well lol... its LeBron.

Furthermore we would have been tied with golden stat 2-2 if Curry hadn't gone just completely crazy at the end on us...... that **** guy, I am quite happy with how we did. Mcollum disappointed a bit in the playoffs though he is not a playoff veteran by any means. Ya I am afraid I just can't agree with your arguments.

[Pelly24]

You based you post on playoff success... Which kyrie didn't sniff till lebron came to town..... And still wouldnt if lebron hadnt came.

I will say this... I wish lillard could finish around the basket like irving can.. Whoa man id forgotten the things irving could do around the hoop.

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It's funny how people hold Kyrie responsible for not making the playoffs, but then don't hold dame responsible for not winning a championship this year and not playing well when he DID have another star player, lol. I could see if Kyrie had underperformed in his two playoff seasons. But the fact is that Kyrie could not have done much better than he did individually. Kyrie gets an "A" or an "A+" for his playoff performances. Dame gets a "B" or "B+" at BEST for all of his postseason performances. His numbers always dropped across the board whether or not he played with another star. He got locked up against the clippers and the warriors. Not an apples to apples comparison, but its not like Dame has proven he can be successful against teams in the playoffs at any level. Kyrie has done so for two straight seasons, even coming off an injury.

I think I see what you are trying to say but the fact remains that lillard took the blazers to the playoffs (and lets not forget a lot of people were not big on that team, most had us not making the playoffs a lot of that credit goes to dame as a player and a leader) and kyrie did not take the cavs to any playoffs, and still might not have without LeBron. Furthermore if Lillard had a player like Lebron next to him his playoff performance would have been much better as well lol... its LeBron.

Furthermore we would have been tied with golden stat 2-2 if Curry hadn't gone just completely crazy at the end on us...... that **** guy, I am quite happy with how we did. Mcollum disappointed a bit in the playoffs though he is not a playoff veteran by any means. Ya I am afraid I just can't agree with your arguments.

lol i understand that. My basic point in simpler terms is, the "Kyrie didnt take his team to the playoffs, dame did" isnt MUCH different than saying Kyrie won a championship, Dame didn't. Dame shouldn't have been expected to get to the championship because he didnt have another legit all star. In the same way, Kyrie shouldn't have been expected to make the playoffs for similar reasons, but on a lower scale.

Kyrie his first 3 years as a Cav: Kyrie is 19-21 years old. 2 different coaches, with both of them being very questionable in terms of coaching ability. over 50 different teammates. Dion Waiters, who had a TS% of below 51% the entire time he played with Kyrie, was the team's second best player. Raw Tristan Thompson with zero offensive skills. The team is tanking for at least Kyrie's first year, and probably second too. Andrew Bynum experiment. Bynum isn't in the league now. Andy Varejao broke down every year, but was okay.

Dame leading his team to the playoffs: Dame is 25 years old. Dame has Terry Stotts. Dame has one of the league's best shooting guards who had a TS% of 54%, and could create a decent shot for himself any time.

I can understand how people would say Dame is better. I wouldn't even really disagree that strongly. Beyong things like "fit" or "potential," Dame just put together a more statistically impressive season than Kyrie ever has, with a higher usage rate than Kyrie ever has. Good enough for me. It's just the "he led his team to the playoffs" argument is just silly and basic because Dame was 6 years older than Kyrie the first time he had his own team, and he also had a player who just earned a $23 million contract (so, even if that's inflated, he's still prob. an all star in the East, or close to it, if Jeff Teague made it) with the coach of the year. You're only supposed to make comparisons with similar situations, and the two situations I just described above, aren't even close ... to being similar.

As for me, I just think Kyrie's maximum value on a good team is higher than Dame's. Dame can't score in as many ways and isn't as crafty or quick off the dribble, and his jumper is streakier. Just watching game film, I don't see Dame being able to do what Kyrie did this past postseason. LeBron will get you better shots, but a lot of times, you've just got to create your own and make something out of nothing. That's one of the hallmarks of being a truly dynamite scorer. Kyrie is the best there is at creating something out of nothing. But if we're going to rank the "who would rank higher all time" I'd give it to Dame. If we're doing the "who will do the best in the most situations in the regular season or playoffs," I'm taking Kyrie.

[Ballerhogger]

All though irving defences suspect , his clutch shots and ability score in big games can't be ignored. I have irving slighty over Lillard.

[tsherkin]

Dame has one of the league's best shooting guards who had a TS% of 54%, and could create a decent shot for himself any time.

And this is a good thing? 54% is not good scoring efficiency. McCollum was relevant but nothing special at all.

[Joao Saraiva]

I have Lillard over Kyrie. Much less injury prone. More proven as a leader.

Let's not forget Lillard is leading his team. When Kyrie was doing the same he missed the playoffs, and we all know how good the low seeds are in the East. I don't want to blame Kyrie for not being in the playoffs since he was really young, but Lillard is a proven worthy leader in that regard.

I also thought Portland would be definitely out of the playoffs last year, and yet again they proved me wrong. And Lillard had a lot to do with it.

I think he's more athlethic than Irving. Irving has better ball handling. Both are good shooters, I'd give Irving some edge here. I think Irving's D is worse and decision making too.

I can't, however, blame anyone for going with Kyrie in this one. They're definitely close. I just hope history revision won't tell us in the future that Kyrie is well ahead simply because of better team situation. They're at least really close.

[Pelly24]

Dame has one of the league's best shooting guards who had a TS% of 54%, and could create a decent shot for himself any time.

And this is a good thing? 54% is not good scoring efficiency. McCollum was relevant but nothing special at all.

I'm saying compared to Dion Waiters, that's elite. Waiters had a 50 TS% when he played with Kyrie. A 4% difference is pretty significant, and 54TS% is at least league average, along with the fact that CJ could also handle the ball and create good looks for himself any time & shoot from long range, that goes a long way. It's clear that CJ is much better than Dion ever was. CJ was the difference between Dame playing on a team with no hope for the playoffs and playing on a team with a solid enough core. My point is, considering the age difference, and the difference in quality teammates and coaches, using Kyrie's inability to make the playoffs isn't a good argument. You're only supposed to make direct comparisons to people in somewhat similar situations, and these situations aren't.

With that said, I think Kyrie's playoff run and his 2014-2015 season say more about him than his inability to take a tanking team to the playoffs as a teenager. Dame's season this past year was incredible, and I think if I were going to rank their place in history, I'd go with dame above Kyrie. Still don't think Dame can do what Kyrie just did though.

[Cuban_Linx]

I'll take Kyrie easily as the better player. Both have scoring as their main asset, but Lillard's scoring is just too volatile for me and his playmaking edge is pretty marginal anyway.

[freewhitemoon]

Dame has one of the league's best shooting guards who had a TS% of 54%, and could create a decent shot for himself any time.

And this is a good thing? 54% is not good scoring efficiency. McCollum was relevant but nothing special at all.

Nothing special besides being one of the best shooters in the league off the dribble. Creates a lot of space for the rest of your team even if the %s aren't incredible.

[rasta_marley]

It's funny how people hold Kyrie responsible for not making the playoffs, but then don't hold dame responsible for not winning a championship this year and not playing well when he DID have another star player, lol. I could see if Kyrie had underperformed in his two playoff seasons. But the fact is that Kyrie could not have done much better than he did individually. Kyrie gets an "A" or an "A+" for his playoff performances. Dame gets a "B" or "B+" at BEST for all of his postseason performances. His numbers always dropped across the board whether or not he played with another star. He got locked up against the clippers and the warriors. Not an apples to apples comparison, but its not like Dame has proven he can be successful against teams in the playoffs at any level. Kyrie has done so for two straight seasons, even coming off an injury.

I think I see what you are trying to say but the fact remains that lillard took the blazers to the playoffs (and lets not forget a lot of people were not big on that team, most had us not making the playoffs a lot of that credit goes to dame as a player and a leader) and kyrie did not take the cavs to any playoffs, and still might not have without LeBron. Furthermore if Lillard had a player like Lebron next to him his playoff performance would have been much better as well lol... its LeBron.

Furthermore we would have been tied with golden stat 2-2 if Curry hadn't gone just completely crazy at the end on us...... that **** guy, I am quite happy with how we did. Mcollum disappointed a bit in the playoffs though he is not a playoff veteran by any means. Ya I am afraid I just can't agree with your arguments.

lol i understand that. My basic point in simpler terms is, the "Kyrie didnt take his team to the playoffs, dame did" isnt MUCH different than saying Kyrie won a championship, Dame didn't. Dame shouldn't have been expected to get to the championship because he didnt have another legit all star. In the same way, Kyrie shouldn't have been expected to make the playoffs for similar reasons, but on a lower scale.

Kyrie his first 3 years as a Cav: Kyrie is 19-21 years old. 2 different coaches, with both of them being very questionable in terms of coaching ability. over 50 different teammates. Dion Waiters, who had a TS% of below 51% the entire time he played with Kyrie, was the team's second best player. Raw Tristan Thompson with zero offensive skills. The team is tanking for at least Kyrie's first year, and probably second too. Andrew Bynum experiment. Bynum isn't in the league now. Andy Varejao broke down every year, but was okay.

Dame leading his team to the playoffs: Dame is 25 years old. Dame has Terry Stotts. Dame has one of the league's best shooting guards who had a TS% of 54%, and could create a decent shot for himself any time.

I can understand how people would say Dame is better. I wouldn't even really disagree that strongly. Beyong things like "fit" or "potential," Dame just put together a more statistically impressive season than Kyrie ever has, with a higher usage rate than Kyrie ever has. Good enough for me. It's just the "he led his team to the playoffs" argument is just silly and basic because Dame was 6 years older than Kyrie the first time he had his own team, and he also had a player who just earned a $23 million contract (so, even if that's inflated, he's still prob. an all star in the East, or close to it, if Jeff Teague made it) with the coach of the year. You're only supposed to make comparisons with similar situations, and the two situations I just described above, aren't even close ... to being similar.

As for me, I just think Kyrie's maximum value on a good team is higher than Dame's. Dame can't score in as many ways and isn't as crafty or quick off the dribble, and his jumper is streakier. Just watching game film, I don't see Dame being able to do what Kyrie did this past postseason. LeBron will get you better shots, but a lot of times, you've just got to create your own and make something out of nothing. That's one of the hallmarks of being a truly dynamite scorer. Kyrie is the best there is at creating something out of nothing. But if we're going to rank the "who would rank higher all time" I'd give it to Dame. If we're doing the "who will do the best in the most situations in the regular season or playoffs," I'm taking Kyrie.

Your losing me a little soo sure man agree to disagree a little.