JoeMalburg wrote:For those of you with at least 1 foot in the Patrick Ewing camp, I would like you to reconcile a few things for me. Don't look at this as a challenge, but merely a question in need of an answer…
The Knicks became elite defensively in 1992 when Pat Riley took over his coach and remain so through the Jeff Van Gundy era. During that time they declined from slightly above average to below average offensively. In that time, they swapped a lot of offensive players (Gerald Wilkins, Xavier McDaniel etc) for better all-around players, especially physical defensive guys. They remained very good to elite and defense even after Ewing declined in the late 90s. Why then does Patrick Ewing get the lion share of the credit? And, consequently, shouldn't he also absorb some of the blame for the teams failings on offense, or in the least, should his defense of impact be considered less then because so many other Knicks players during the Riley/JVG era were defensive oriented?
And at the end of the day, how much does it matter that he never got the team over the top?
In reply I wanted to review how some of these teams performed defensively, in light of the cast present. I'm going to start in the 90's (just to save time), btw; they were above average defensively in '88 and '89, too, fwiw. Of the defensive four factors (DREB%, opp eFG%, opp TOV%, and opp FTr), I may occasionally spotlight the DREB% and opp eFG% because (for obvious reasons), those are the factors a rim-protecting center like Ewing can have the MOST influence on.
‘90 KnicksMediocre coaching, imo, and no real sophisticated defense schema going on yet. The Knicks had
no back-up center this season (and this is before the era of small-ball). Oakley (minutes somewhat staggered with Ewing’s) I believe often filled that role the ~10 mpg that Ewing sits; during which they’d generally have Kenny Walker---undersized, mediocre defensively and
poor on the defensive glass---filling in at PF; he was also the primary PF when Ewing was on but Oakley was off.
A backcourt of Mark Jackson, Gerald Wilkins, limited minutes of aging Mo Cheeks (was a late-season acquisition), and Trent Tucker is [imo] average defensively.
Johnny Neuman was the starting SF (mediocre halfcourt defender,
I think, though I don't remember him much other than he was a skinny/lanky dude who could shoot decent in the midrange; terrible rebounding SF though-->avg just 3.0 reb/36 min).
This team managed a -0.1 rDRTG (13th/27), although it needs to be noted that Oakley missed 21 games that season (again: Walker filling in). Knicks were a +2.0 rDRtg in the 21 games Oakley missed; -0.8 rDRtg in the 61 games Oakley was around for. So that -0.8 rDRTG (would have been 11th/27) is more representative of what this line-up (led by Ewing and Oakley) was doing. There are 96 PF/C minutes to be filled per game; considering Ewing and Oakley are accounting for ~74 of them, that still leaves ~22 mpg to be filled by someone else. If we're talking about the entire frontcourt (SF included), Ewing/Oakley are only accounting for ~74 of 144 mpg. That's a considerable amount of other minutes being played by BAD defensive frontcourt players (because Ewing and Oakley are literally the ONLY two frontcourt players worth their salt in that line-up). And the backcourt and coaching are only mediocre at best. All things considered, I don't view a -0.8 rDRTG as a major failure. A minor underachievement at worst.
‘91 KnicksThe defensive situation in the backcourt is marginally improved by having aging (34 years old) Mo Cheeks for the whole season, and thru the acquisition of John Starks (still a bench role player at this stage, though).
But otherwise defense at the SF position gets
worse, as Kiki Vandeweghe was the starting SF: he avg 2.4 rpg (only 2.7 reb/36 min…..as a 6’8” SF; that’s abysmal), and is imo on the All-Time All-NO Defensive Team. Just didn't give a damn on that end.
They mostly don’t have a back-up center again, except for career scrub (and weak defensively) Eddie Lee Wilkins, +/- limited minutes of scrub Jerrod Mustaf; either that or they may have the occasional staggering of Oakley’s and Ewing’s minutes to have Oakley fill the role when Ewing sits. Backing up Oakley there’s again Kenny Walker and aforementioned scrub Jerrod Mustaf.
In short, their defensive frontcourt goes to hell any time Ewing and/or Oakley has to sit, and there’s the ever-present gaping hole at the SF position with Kiki there. Considering ONLY those frontcourt players
outside of Ewing and Oakley, I would say this frontcourt supporting cast is even WORSE defensively than they were in '90.
And like previous year, there’s not really a strong or clever defensive strategist coaching the team. This team managed a -0.6 rDRTG. That's a small or marginal defensive underachievement by Ewing/Oakley at worst, imo.
‘92 KnicksRiley comes in and institutes a decidedly more focused and grinding defensive strategy/mentality. Kiki has been relegated to limited minutes off the bench (though the team still must “sustain” ~14 mpg of his inept defense). Xavier McDaniel has been brought in to replace Kiki; X-man is not a great defensive talent, but is at least a strong and physical SF, rebounds reasonably well, and doesn’t blatantly back down from his defensive responsibilities like Kiki did. Also brought in to provide a solid defensive presence at the SF/
PF/C position off the bench is Anthony Mason.
The backcourt is perhaps
slightly above average with Mark Jackson (capable, but not great) at PG, Gerald Wilkins at SG (mediocre defensively), and Starks (pretty good defensively) and Greg Anthony (capable) coming off the bench.
This team performed as a -4.0 rDRTG (2nd/27) in the rs, and actually was -6.4 rDRTG (relative to ORtg’s faced) in the playoffs.
Centering more specifically on Ewing’s contributions, they were 5th/27 in opp eFG%, 1st/27 in DREB%.
‘93 KnicksSomewhat still lacking in a true back-up center, except for limited games/minutes of aging Herb Williams (capable defender) filling part of the void. Otherwise again shifting Oakley (and/or Mason) into a center role when Ewing sits. But that’s the big thing that's different now: a fairly developed (at least defensively) Anthony Mason can now fill in if you shift Oakley to center, so essentially they ALWAYS have a solid defensive presence at BOTH big-man positions at all times.
They also now have a somewhat oversized shot-blocking presence at the SF in Charles Smith (who in certain match-ups can play PF or even C on defense).
The backcourt is now the (very capable) Doc Rivers at PG, John Starks (very good defensively) at SG, and Greg Anthony (capable) coming off the bench, though a few relative weak spots at the SG/SF in guys like aging Rolando Blackman, Hubert Davis, and Tony Campbell (not awful, but none of them good defensively).
This cast managed an historically awesome [more below on how historically]
-8.3 rDRTG. They were #1 in the league in BOTH opp eFG% and DREB%.
And fwiw, they took a juggernaut Bulls team 6 games deep in the ECF (the Bulls had swept their first two opponents, and only took 6 games to finish off a very talented Suns team, remember).
‘94 KnicksSame basic line-up as in ‘93, except Rivers misses most of the season with injury, but nearing mid-season they acquire 32-year-old Derek Harper (still fairly good defensively) to fill the void. Charles Smith also misses a lot of games, but Anthony Bonner helps fill the void (not as good defensively as Smith, iirc, but a beast on the offensive glass). NOTE: John Starks (their best backcourt defender) misses 23 games this season.
They still managed another historically awesome
-8.1 rDRTG (again: #1 in league in
both DREB% and opp eFG%).
Now I’ve mentioned that those were historically awesome defenses, and I want to delve into HOW awesome they were.
Well, we’ve got 66 NBA seasons in which team ORtg/DRtg is noted, and there’s anywhere from 8 to 30 teams in each of those seasons. I counted them up it amounts to 1395 teams over 66 years. Out of those 1395 teams, only EIGHT have ever managed a rDRTG as good as -8.0 or better. But four of those were Bill Russell teams; and many people like to speculate that no single player (even Bill Russell) would be capable of that level of defensive impact in a modern context.
So I'd further note that in the 48 seasons since Bill Russell retired, there have been 1238 teams, and only
four of them have ever achieved a rDRTG of -8 or better. That's just over 0.3%; even in a league of 30 teams, that averages out to about ONE team every 11-12 years. The Knicks (with Ewing as anchor) did it two years in a row.
These types of defenses DO NOT happen without an all-time great level defensive center in the middle. The other centers who ever anchored such a defense are Bill Russell (4 times), Kevin Garnett (once), and Tim Duncan (once).
One can try to counter that Ewing had a lot of defensive help (Oakley, Mason, Starks, Harper), and they'd be right. But that's basically true of any of the other anchors of this level of team defense, too (even Russell, really: KC Jones, Havlicek, Loscutoff, Sam Jones was capable). Garnett had Tony Allen, James Posey, Pierce was capable, Perkins was decent defensively (and Thibs system). Duncan had Bruce Bowen, and guys like Horry, Ginobili, and Nestorovic were decent defensively.
wrt the Knicks defense maintaining strong even as Ewing appeared to go into decline (and I'd note that this includes after both Oakley and Mason have departed).......
While you seem to be implying that might be a strike against him (i.e. maybe it wasn't really him anchoring these defenses), I'd potentially take the opposite tack and count that as a point in his favor (i.e. he was still a fairly capable defensive anchor even in the early stages of decline, and somewhat portable from system to system).
As late as '99, Ewing still appears more than capable defensively. He had pretty good defensive help that year: Kurt Thomas, young Marcus Camby, and Chris Dudley in the frontcourt. Sprewell was a good defensive SG, and iirc Charlie Ward (at PG) was decent defensively too.
That team managed a -4.7 rDRTG (4th/29). I'd note, however, that Ewing missed 12 games that season. They were a -2.8 rDRTG in those 12 games; they were a -5.3 rDRTG (would have been 2nd/29) in the 38 games he played in.
I'd previously noted how that team performed as a -7.1 rDRTG (relative to the ORtg's they were facing) in the playoffs, too. And while Ewing missed the last 4 games of the ECF and ALL of the Finals, it was mostly in the early rounds (when he was present) that their defense was the most impressive: -6.3 rDRTG in the 1st round, -11.2 rDRTG in the ECSF, -6.7 rDRTG in the ECF (Ewing present for 2 of 6 games); then -5.1 rDRTG in the finals.
So yeah, while coaching plays a role (and Pat Riley is brilliant), let's not lose sight of the fact that the coaches don't actually take the floor. Their job is to recognize the strengths of the players they have, and utilize them in a manner that optimizes his players' effectiveness......but it's still the players that are actually exerting that impact. Riley recognized he had an extraordinary defensive talent in Ewing, and set out to optimize that, realizing that was their best chance of winning.
And they came awfully damn close. As has been pointed out previously (by others, not just me):
*The '94 Knicks went 7 games with the Rockets in the Finals.
**They actually outscored the Rockets by 5 pts in the series.
***They lost game 7 by just six points with John Starks going 2-18 FG's, 0-11 3PA. As Clyde Frazier mentioned, if Starks doesn't pick that exact moment to have basically the worst game of his entire prime (he could still have a bad game....just not THAT bad), we'd very likely have seen a Knicks win and a title for Ewing.
====>Imagine how different the legacies of both Ewing and Hakeem might be if Starks hadn't had such a rotten game. Instead of these two great centers typically being separated by ~15 places, we'd likely see them separated by <5 places on most ATL's.
So anyway, this is as good a place as any to state that's still where my vote is going.
1st vote: Patrick Ewing
2nd vote: Kevin DurantI could potentially be swayed off of Durant, toward Nash or maybe Pippen (Hondo?). But for now this is where I'm going.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
