High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

[Dupp]

Itt missed shots >>> efficiency. No wonder you rate Kobe so highly.

[ronnymac2]

This is more solid evidence that Michael Jordan is the GOAT scorer. When you look at his MPG, skillset, volume, USG%, TOV%, and consistency, I just don't think anybody has a case over him ito pure scoring. I've been saying Jordan is the GOAT scorer for a while now, with Kobe being a clear second.

It always made me confused when people in 2016 were saying Steph Curry is a superior scorer to MJ. In the narrowest sense, you can argue the point based on True Shooting Percentage, but what about volume, skillset, taking care of the ball, and MPG? And I know I'll get the "Skillset doesn't matter, as long as you put the ball in the basket." No, skillset 100% does matter. This is basketball. The results of the games can be placed on a spreadsheet, but the games themselves aren't played on a spreadsheet.

Now that said, the actual numbers presented in the OP are of course arbitrary (significant critiques: 30 FGAs is random, and no TS%). Though I will say I understand not including TS%. I also don't understand why some posters in this thread (Not the OP) are considering this as an ultimate "Gotcha!" moment to LBJ fans when even the most ardent LBJ supporters wouldn't say LBJ is a better pure scorer than MJ. I think most (all?) people acknowledge MJ has the advantage as a scorer.

And as an aside...in the context of what this means as far as who is the better player...I would say it should certainly be weighed, but is not the be-all-end-all. Consider that Magic Johnson is the GOAT offensive player in NBA history, yet he would not show up and be impressive in a statistical analysis like this. The fact that Magic didn't volume score to the level of the four guys listed in this thread doesn't mean that there was a damning defect in his skillset that hampered his team.

There are levels to this game, and there are levels to the sub-games (Scoring, defense, etc.). Jordan is the GOAT scorer, but it doesn't mean that other guys aren't great scorers, or that the value of their scoring is diminished. Paired with others facets of their game, other players can be equal to or superior to Jordan in terms of total offense.

[Long2s]

30 FGA is not as random as you think. Lebron averages 20 FGA, I am guessing that 30 FGA would be on the tail end, last 5-10% of the league wide gaussian curve of FGA. guessing just right about 2 standard deviaitons.

[Long2s]

This is more solid evidence that Michael Jordan is the GOAT scorer. When you look at his MPG, skillset, volume, USG%, TOV%, and consistency, I just don't think anybody has a case over him ito pure scoring. I've been saying Jordan is the GOAT scorer for a while now, with Kobe being a clear second.

It always made me confused when people in 2016 were saying Steph Curry is a superior scorer to MJ. In the narrowest sense, you can argue the point based on True Shooting Percentage, but what about volume, skillset, taking care of the ball, and MPG? And I know I'll get the "Skillset doesn't matter, as long as you put the ball in the basket." No, skillset 100% does matter. This is basketball. The results of the games can be placed on a spreadsheet, but the games themselves aren't played on a spreadsheet.

Now that said, the actual numbers presented in the OP are of course arbitrary (significant critiques: 30 FGAs is random, and no TS%). Though I will say I understand not including TS%. I also don't understand why some posters in this thread (Not the OP) are considering this as an ultimate "Gotcha!" moment to LBJ fans when even the most ardent LBJ supporters wouldn't say LBJ is a better pure scorer than MJ. I think most (all?) people acknowledge MJ has the advantage as a scorer.

And as an aside...in the context of what this means as far as who is the better player...I would say it should certainly be weighed, but is not the be-all-end-all. Consider that Magic Johnson is the GOAT offensive player in NBA history, yet he would not show up and be impressive in a statistical analysis like this. The fact that Magic didn't volume score to the level of the four guys listed in this thread doesn't mean that there was a damning defect in his skillset that hampered his team.

There are levels to this game, and there are levels to the sub-games (Scoring, defense, etc.). Jordan is the GOAT scorer, but it doesn't mean that other guys aren't great scorers, or that the value of their scoring is diminished. Paired with others facets of their game, other players can be equal to or superior to Jordan in terms of total offense.

Thanks, great comment.

What this, and other stats show, is that Jordan is in a tier by himself scoring wise. No discussion. He simply is a step above everyone else.

This should simply be acknowledged by everyone.

[Xherdan 23]

Can you add others?

Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade

Hakeem
12 games
FG 203/374
3PT 3/4
FG% 54
TOV/G 2.9

Bird
1 game
FG 17/33
3PT 0/1
FG% 51
TOV/G 6.0

Duncan
1 game
FG 9/30
3PT 0/0
FG% 30
TOV/G 1.0

Shaq
5 games
FG 95/158
3PT 0/0
FG% 60
TOV/G 2.2

As you can clearly see, this is a very useful way to compare high volume scorers in the playoffs. It teaches us that Hakeem is actually the best 3pt shooter of all time, Bird can't handle a basketball and Dirk and Wade are not in the conversation as playoff scorers. Good stuff.

[Xherdan 23]

30 FGA is not as random as you think. Lebron averages 20 FGA, I am guessing that 30 FGA would be on the tail end, last 5-10% of the league wide gaussian curve of FGA. guessing just right about 2 standard deviaitons.

So it's not random because it's based on you guessing? Sweet.

[Long2s]

Give me a break....I'm not uploading the excel doc, i'm not as nice as trex.

You need to present data that Lebron drives more than MJ or Kobe, otherwise unsubstantiated claim.

http://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Kinda sol on mj....

Where do you see drives and post up stats in those?

You don't.

You just see distance. Did you really not know this? Where are open cuts, where are transitions in this? That's why you can't use it of course.

Did you not know this?

You do that here:

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/

The data doesn't exist going further back than 13-14, but you can see that Wade drives more than Lebron in every season. Kobe as an old man drives around 9 times a game in the games he plays in 13-15. Prime MJ would drive a lot more than that.

[dhsilv2]

30 FGA is not as random as you think. Lebron averages 20 FGA, I am guessing that 30 FGA would be on the tail end, last 5-10% of the league wide gaussian curve of FGA. guessing just right about 2 standard deviaitons.

Lebron has 44 games in over 1300 games played of 30 FGA. That's more than 2 standard deviations...a lot more.

[dhsilv2]

This is more solid evidence that Michael Jordan is the GOAT scorer. When you look at his MPG, skillset, volume, USG%, TOV%, and consistency, I just don't think anybody has a case over him ito pure scoring. I've been saying Jordan is the GOAT scorer for a while now, with Kobe being a clear second.

It always made me confused when people in 2016 were saying Steph Curry is a superior scorer to MJ. In the narrowest sense, you can argue the point based on True Shooting Percentage, but what about volume, skillset, taking care of the ball, and MPG? And I know I'll get the "Skillset doesn't matter, as long as you put the ball in the basket." No, skillset 100% does matter. This is basketball. The results of the games can be placed on a spreadsheet, but the games themselves aren't played on a spreadsheet.

Now that said, the actual numbers presented in the OP are of course arbitrary (significant critiques: 30 FGAs is random, and no TS%). Though I will say I understand not including TS%. I also don't understand why some posters in this thread (Not the OP) are considering this as an ultimate "Gotcha!" moment to LBJ fans when even the most ardent LBJ supporters wouldn't say LBJ is a better pure scorer than MJ. I think most (all?) people acknowledge MJ has the advantage as a scorer.

And as an aside...in the context of what this means as far as who is the better player...I would say it should certainly be weighed, but is not the be-all-end-all. Consider that Magic Johnson is the GOAT offensive player in NBA history, yet he would not show up and be impressive in a statistical analysis like this. The fact that Magic didn't volume score to the level of the four guys listed in this thread doesn't mean that there was a damning defect in his skillset that hampered his team.

There are levels to this game, and there are levels to the sub-games (Scoring, defense, etc.). Jordan is the GOAT scorer, but it doesn't mean that other guys aren't great scorers, or that the value of their scoring is diminished. Paired with others facets of their game, other players can be equal to or superior to Jordan in terms of total offense.

Thanks, great comment.

What this, and other stats show, is that Jordan is in a tier by himself scoring wise. No discussion. He simply is a step above everyone else.

This should simply be acknowledged by everyone.

These stats do not really do that. They show he can shoot a lot of FGA's without massive drop offs in his TS%, but nothing else.

[Joao Saraiva]

This is more solid evidence that Michael Jordan is the GOAT scorer. When you look at his MPG, skillset, volume, USG%, TOV%, and consistency, I just don't think anybody has a case over him ito pure scoring. I've been saying Jordan is the GOAT scorer for a while now, with Kobe being a clear second.

It always made me confused when people in 2016 were saying Steph Curry is a superior scorer to MJ. In the narrowest sense, you can argue the point based on True Shooting Percentage, but what about volume, skillset, taking care of the ball, and MPG? And I know I'll get the "Skillset doesn't matter, as long as you put the ball in the basket." No, skillset 100% does matter. This is basketball. The results of the games can be placed on a spreadsheet, but the games themselves aren't played on a spreadsheet.

Now that said, the actual numbers presented in the OP are of course arbitrary (significant critiques: 30 FGAs is random, and no TS%). Though I will say I understand not including TS%. I also don't understand why some posters in this thread (Not the OP) are considering this as an ultimate "Gotcha!" moment to LBJ fans when even the most ardent LBJ supporters wouldn't say LBJ is a better pure scorer than MJ. I think most (all?) people acknowledge MJ has the advantage as a scorer.

And as an aside...in the context of what this means as far as who is the better player...I would say it should certainly be weighed, but is not the be-all-end-all. Consider that Magic Johnson is the GOAT offensive player in NBA history, yet he would not show up and be impressive in a statistical analysis like this. The fact that Magic didn't volume score to the level of the four guys listed in this thread doesn't mean that there was a damning defect in his skillset that hampered his team.

There are levels to this game, and there are levels to the sub-games (Scoring, defense, etc.). Jordan is the GOAT scorer, but it doesn't mean that other guys aren't great scorers, or that the value of their scoring is diminished. Paired with others facets of their game, other players can be equal to or superior to Jordan in terms of total offense.

MJ being the best scorer? I believe that too.

Kobe a clear second? Not even close. LeBron puts up the same type of volume with much better efficiency. And if we add playoffs and finals the gap gets bigger LeBron's way.

I guess in the end KD will have a word to say too above Kobe as scorer and maybe even on LeBron.

Shaq was a better scorer than Kobe too. Can think of a bunch of others... I guess it isn't that difficult to put volume x efficiency and see if they're the type of players who are consistent in playoff time. LeBron has it all and on a level above Kobe. Simple as that. MJ is clearly the guy who puts the highest volumes and his efficiency is off the charts, with great consistency as you added (not that the others aren't consistent, but I can't even recall a bad series for MJ).

[dhsilv2]

You need to present data that Lebron drives more than MJ or Kobe, otherwise unsubstantiated claim.

http://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Kinda sol on mj....

Where do you see drives and post up stats in those?

You don't.

You just see distance. Did you really not know this? Where are open cuts, where are transitions in this? That's why you can't use it of course.

Did you not know this?

You do that here:

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/

The data doesn't exist going further back than 13-14, but you can see that Wade drives more than Lebron in every season. Kobe as an old man drives around 9 times a game in the games he plays in 13-15. Prime MJ would drive a lot more than that.

What I posted illustrates what I said as best one can reasonably do.

[Baski]

Seriously, I can't thank you enough for proving the evidence that the Lebron fans keep blindly making claims against like Lebron's "clutch" abilities or how he could magically put up 50 points. Keep in mind though - this'll only piss them off and more excuses will be made.

You don't get to runaway with your tail between your legs from one thread and pop up in another hoping to reset and act like your points still hold water.
You give Jordan fans a bad name.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't see when i posted this, so here you go:

Kobe has exactly one 50pt playoff game, and 13 40+pt games overall. LeBron maxed out at 49 and has 19 40+pt playoff games. Tell me how this proves that LeBron dropping 50 should be seen as magical while Kobe dropping 50 shouldn't.

[Xherdan 23]

MJ being the best scorer? I believe that too.

Kobe a clear second? Not even close. LeBron puts up the same type of volume with much better efficiency. And if we add playoffs and finals the gap gets bigger LeBron's way.

I guess in the end KD will have a word to say too above Kobe as scorer and maybe even on LeBron.

Shaq was a better scorer than Kobe too. Can think of a bunch of others... I guess it isn't that difficult to put volume x efficiency and see if they're the type of players who are consistent in playoff time. LeBron has it all and on a level above Kobe. Simple as that. MJ is clearly the guy who puts the highest volumes and his efficiency is off the charts, with great consistency as you added (not that the others aren't consistent, but I can't even recall a bad series for MJ).

'97 vs the Heat off the top of my head, but that was just a bad series for everyone offensively.

[ChartFiction]

There's been many series at this point where Lebron's uncomfortableness shooting has been used against him. Spurs gave him the Rondo treatment. MJ/Kobe would revel in that sort of space. They do 50 moves to get half of that space that teams were giving Lebron willingly.

The Lebron fan's argument would make more sense if we're talking about Kevin Durant, who's proven his ability to score at high volume, who's more efficient and who's lack of a scoring ability has/will never be used against him in any way.

[mademan]

There's been many series at this point where Lebron's uncomfortableness shooting has been used against him. Spurs gave him the Rondo treatment. MJ/Kobe would revel in that sort of space. They do 50 moves to get half of that space that teams were giving Lebron willingly.

The Lebron fan's argument would make more sense if we're talking about Kevin Durant, who's proven his ability to score at high volume, who's more efficient and who's lack of a scoring ability has/will never be used against him in any way.

And there's been series where Kobe's willingness to fire pas regard has been used against him. Seems weird to me to find a negative in one but not the other.

[ChartFiction]

There's been many series at this point where Lebron's uncomfortableness shooting has been used against him. Spurs gave him the Rondo treatment. MJ/Kobe would revel in that sort of space. They do 50 moves to get half of that space that teams were giving Lebron willingly.

The Lebron fan's argument would make more sense if we're talking about Kevin Durant, who's proven his ability to score at high volume, who's more efficient and who's lack of a scoring ability has/will never be used against him in any way.

And there's been series where Kobe's willingness to fire pas regard has been used against him. Seems weird to me to find a negative in one but not the other.

Those are reflected in the numbers, which is all you guys are looking at. Lebron being given open shots by the defense and passing up on them is not, and it's obviously important to consider if we're talking about scoring and one player has a deficiency/fear that's been exploited multiple times in the finals, by how the opposing team constructs their defense.

[mademan]

There's been many series at this point where Lebron's uncomfortableness shooting has been used against him. Spurs gave him the Rondo treatment. MJ/Kobe would revel in that sort of space. They do 50 moves to get half of that space that teams were giving Lebron willingly.

The Lebron fan's argument would make more sense if we're talking about Kevin Durant, who's proven his ability to score at high volume, who's more efficient and who's lack of a scoring ability has/will never be used against him in any way.

And there's been series where Kobe's willingness to fire pas regard has been used against him. Seems weird to me to find a negative in one but not the other.

Those are reflected in the numbers, which is all you guys are looking at. Lebron being given open shots by the defense and passing up on them is not, and it's obviously important to consider if we're talking about scoring and one player has a deficiency that's been exploited multiple times in the finals in how the opposing team constructs their defense.

It is important to consider. It's just as important to consider a scorer who has a deficiency in believing he can hit any shot an time being exploited by a defence as well.

[thekdog34]

Can you add others?

Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade

Hakeem
12 games
FG 203/374
3PT 3/4
FG% 54
TOV/G 2.9

Bird
1 game
FG 17/33
3PT 0/1
FG% 51
TOV/G 6.0

Duncan
1 game
FG 9/30
3PT 0/0
FG% 30
TOV/G 1.0

Shaq
5 games
FG 95/158
3PT 0/0
FG% 60
TOV/G 2.2

As you can clearly see, this is a very useful way to compare high volume scorers in the playoffs. It teaches us that Hakeem is actually the best 3pt shooter of all time, Bird can't handle a basketball and Dirk and Wade are not in the conversation as playoff scorers. Good stuff.

Pretty impressive by Hakeem.

Shows that he can increase volume without a drop in efficiency from the C position.

[dhsilv2]

Can you add others?

Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade

Hakeem
12 games
FG 203/374
3PT 3/4
FG% 54
TOV/G 2.9

Bird
1 game
FG 17/33
3PT 0/1
FG% 51
TOV/G 6.0

Duncan
1 game
FG 9/30
3PT 0/0
FG% 30
TOV/G 1.0

Shaq
5 games
FG 95/158
3PT 0/0
FG% 60
TOV/G 2.2

As you can clearly see, this is a very useful way to compare high volume scorers in the playoffs. It teaches us that Hakeem is actually the best 3pt shooter of all time, Bird can't handle a basketball and Dirk and Wade are not in the conversation as playoff scorers. Good stuff.

Pretty impressive by Hakeem.

Shows that he can increase volume without a drop in efficiency from the C position.

Shows he had a killer run in 95 more than anything else. As 9 of the 12 games were that year.

[dhsilv2]

There's been many series at this point where Lebron's uncomfortableness shooting has been used against him. Spurs gave him the Rondo treatment. MJ/Kobe would revel in that sort of space. They do 50 moves to get half of that space that teams were giving Lebron willingly.

The Lebron fan's argument would make more sense if we're talking about Kevin Durant, who's proven his ability to score at high volume, who's more efficient and who's lack of a scoring ability has/will never be used against him in any way.

And there's been series where Kobe's willingness to fire pas regard has been used against him. Seems weird to me to find a negative in one but not the other.

Those are reflected in the numbers, which is all you guys are looking at. Lebron being given open shots by the defense and passing up on them is not, and it's obviously important to consider if we're talking about scoring and one player has a deficiency/fear that's been exploited multiple times in the finals, by how the opposing team constructs their defense.

Lebron is the point for his teams. His first job is to create for others. That difference in role and style between Lebron and the others shouldn't be ignored. Lebron very much is a better passer/play maker than he is a shooter. If you look at what the spurs did against the heat in 14, I know people criticize his poor jumper or whatever. What the spurs did was they took him out of his play maker role.

Now I guess you can say he should have flipped into gunner mode, MJ would have done that, but Lebron's success has come from being the point who scores within the offense. Maybe for a series if he made that change it would be ideal, but playing his way has afforded him success that truly is on par with only the elite of the elite all time players. It's just not what fans typically want from a guy considered the best ever by some.