Re: #4 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

CP3, Stockton, Kidd, Frazier, Payton, Jerry West. I do find it strange that the best point guard defenders of all time coincide with a lot of the top 10-13 best pg of all time. I know that defense is involved in their reputation as the best of all times, and I know that the qualities that make you one of the best in general will benefit you on defense, but still I find it strange. Gary, I get it. But in general, I think that there are guys better than some of the guys getting votes and consideration.

I mean.. Andre Roberson actually is one of the best defenders of all time, for this ranking he played too few years to have a good spot (I know that he isn't a PG, I'm saying just like that) but he is literally almost perfect on defense. Defense isn't abstract.

I could understand a case for kidd over MRR or derek harper (huge longevity, clearly worse at contesting shots, disturbing dribble and guardind people in general, but still capable of doing it, still quite big, excellent switchability, capable of contesting shots [still way worse than MRR], best help defender of all time among PGs), and in fact I do think that he makes sense in the top 5, as walt and gary make sense, but I cannot find an argument for stockton and cp3 over MRR.

Anyway.. even if I would pick MRR and Nate above him, I'm switching my vote to Dennis Johnson

[kendogg]

defense is absolutely why all of those guys are considered among the best PG's. basketball is more mental than many give the game credit for. all those guys are among the highest bball IQ's in history. they aren't one dimensional they don't make their name on gambling they are complete players that always put their mark on the game regardless of matchup. I'm always astounded when folks say MJ wasn't one of the smartest bball minds because to me he's unquestionably in that list. clearly the voters here weigh team defense very highly putting kidd #1. i've already stated before that I think lockdown defense is very important for a PG but that doesn't mean I don't also value team defense. I think payton and frazier would be my first 2 picks but they also are great team defenders. CP3 is actually IMO a better individual defender than stockton or kidd though in certain matchups kidd can use his length to bully better. CP3 is just as strong as Kidd for his size and can stand his ground against bigger guys.

[trex_8063]

unfortunately the older guys are getting no consideration.

The guy in #2 is well into his 70's, and another guy who's had traction from the git-go is an octogenarian who played most of his career in the 1960's.
The guy in 1st played the bulk of his prime and career more than a decade ago, and the guy in 3rd has been retired for more than a decade (and came into the league barely any later than the player you've chiefly been supporting until a few minutes ago--->which happens to be before nearly 1/2 this forum's posters were born).
Stockton entered the league more than three decades ago (BEFORE your prior top candidate), Mookie entered almost three decades ago, too; and another player who entered the league more than FOUR decades ago now has serious traction.

Meanwhile, there is only ONE current/active player who has received ANY consideration at all.

But, do stockton and cp3 have a bigger a impact on D than derek harper? I would say derek was way better. derek was a bit better than blaylock at what he did and he was bigger than all of these guys. I don't think stockton and cp3 had the tools to defend like derek

Derek Harper's DRAPM for the twilight of his career ('97-'99, NPI for '97) went like this: -2.18, -1.85, and -3.37. I know he was old and well past his prime by these years, but he was never exactly an athletic freak (players not overly-reliant on their athleticism tend to age better), and if he was not just better, but "way better" than guys like Paul or Stockton, is it really likely he'd have fallen to so [abysmally] bad by age 35 and after?

I also note that the Mavs were perpetually a poor defensive team [at times REALLY bad] during Harper's tenure. Even the few years they had a semi-passable rim protector (James Donaldson or Sam Perkins), they were poor defensively.
The '94 Mavs were a 111.6 DRtg before trading Harper away (for Tony Campbell), and 109.6 DRtg AFTER trading him. Meanwhile, the '94 Knicks were a 98.1 DRtg BEFORE obtaining Harper, and a 99.2 DRtg after.

He got steals, but at a lower rate than CP3 or Stockton or Mookie, fwiw. He's also the worst defensive rebounding PG presently being commented on.

Award/honors/accolades: he's marginally ahead of Stockton in career DPOY shares (.045 to .023--->near-negligible shares for either), but WELL behind both Paul and Blaylock in shares. He's behind Stockton in All-D honors and WAAAY behind Mookie and CP3 in same.


Circling back to DRAPM support.....
Blaylock ('97-'02): +1.2, +2.24, +2.47, +0.49, +0.8, -0.1
Paul ('06-'17 and rs-only for '18 (NPI)): +0.8, +0.2, -0.8, +1.3, +0.2, +1.7, -0.6, +0.8, +2.4, +1.79, +2.69, +2.5, +0.38
Stockton ('97-'03): +1.54, +2.04, +2.27, +3.06, +2.5, +1.6, +1.1

All of these three guys pop off the screen to me ("eye-test") as far as what they're doing defensively, too. In other words, I can see where the defensive value is coming from.

Derek Harper looked good, too but tbh, I have a really hard time seeing the case for him above them (reasons pretty well outlined above).

I think there just is a bias for great players, in general

This may be a factor in some people's thinking, but I don't think it's a fair characterization in a general sense.

You said you wanted this to be about whole careers. I mentioned that if that meant the "average season's defense", it would be in favor or younger/active players still in their primes, because defensive ability dwindles with age and they've not yet played their twilight years. On the flip-side, if we're talking about CUMULATIVE defensive value, that's obviously skewed far in favor of longevity giants. You asked us to reconcile these battling concerns for ourselves.

If we talk straight up CUMULATIVE value, I'm not sure there's anyone left on the table who has a good case against John Stockton. The guy played 19 largely injury-free years, >27 mpg in the last 16 seasons, is the career leader in steals (handily), and (as indicated above via DRAPM) was a solid defender 'till the very end.
I don't think there's anyone left who can touch him in cumulative value (Kidd was perhaps the only one, and he went #1).

But if cumulative value is spread too thinly (over TOO many years), I don't think it's appropriate to take the longevity giant outright. imo, cumulative value needs to be balanced or weighted against average single-season value.......that's the only reason I'm not taking Stockton in a landslide here (though I still think he's a perfectly reasonable candidate).

But from the standpoint of still having SOME consideration of cumulative defensive contributions and impact, it's hard for me to take McMillan (with his just over 20,000 career minutes) over Stockton (nearly 48,000 career minutes) or CP3/Blaylock/Cheeks/West (who all have at least >31,000 minutes; nearly 37,000 for West).

[cecilthesheep]

Micheal Ray richardson ... I would like to hear an argument for stock or cp over him, apart from the fact that they played for a lot of years.

Well, the fact that they played a lot of years does matter, and especially so when the gap is this huge. Richardson was only in the league for eight years, and he was injured or suspended for significant parts of those. That's just too short of a career without enough consistent excellence to be considered, imo.

MRR might have peaked higher than Stock or CP, especially taking switchability into account, and that definitely matters, but he's not anywhere even close to them in accolades or longevity.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

CP3, Stockton, Kidd, Frazier, Payton, Jerry West. I do find it strange that the best point guard defenders of all time coincide with a lot of the top 10-13 best pg of all time. .......

I mean.. Andre Roberson actually is one of the best defenders of all time, for this ranking he played too few years to have a good spot (I know that he isn't a PG, I'm saying just like that) but he is literally almost perfect on defense. Defense isn't abstract.

but I cannot find an argument for stockton and cp3 over MRR.

Very suspicious.

I think there is Bias in favor of offense. Even Harper was a good offensive player. I think there is bias in favor of players on great teams. I think there is bias in favor steals leaders.

With Nate I noticed him before his team was good but Nate got on the All defensive team after his team got good.
Patrick Beverly is not an offensive star but Beverly played on good teams and Beverly has recency working for him.

I was very impressed with Michael Ray Richardson's athleticism, aggressiveness and vision. I am not sure about his fundamentals, positioning and rotations.

When trying to think of defensive stars on bad teams, Darrel Walker is a guy that came to mind as perhaps belonging on the list of all time great defensive point guards. PenBeast might be able to back me up or tell me I am overating Walker.

[penbeast0]

Micheal Ray richardson. You have a guy who was really really long, contested all the shots, nobody blew by him could disturb the dribble like some of these 6 feet point guards, stole tons of balls, could actually shut down people like a pippen (that's what you can when you're 6'5" with long arms and great athleticism)
Guys, there is a lot about defense that is not iq, help defense (richardson was the perfect help defender for his times) and positioning. You literally play half of your possessions on D and there's a point when you have to literally guard people, disturb their dribble, disturb passing lanes, contesting their shots, preventing their shots.

I can't rank these 3 guys I mentioned but I would probably go 1)MRR 2)derek 3)mo cheeks. DJ is at their level.

MRR was like a walt frazier (for what I understand about how Walt was, even If what I saw about walt disappointed me, I would bet that MRR and derek were better than him on defense) lighter but with better athleticism and longer. I can understand him still not being in his tier because of his short career but still he was at that level of defense

I would like to hear an argument for stock or cp over him, apart from the fact that they played for a lot of years.

I was never as impressed with Richardson defensively as you seem to be. While he got big steal numbers, he was a gambler, he made huge plays but from what I saw, he got burned gambling more than most. Richardson was athletic and talented, but he's not in my top 5. Basketball IQ wasn't his strength relative to the better PGs either. Sort of Alvin Robertson light.

Walker was another good defensive combo guard. Saw a lot of him the year he played in Washington, but he didn't jump out at me as having massive impact and, like several others, not really a ton of career minutes. Just not as aggressive as a Payton or McMillan type nor quick enough to guard the jets. Pretty good defensive rebounder though (as was Richardson) and we counted that with Jason Kidd.

I do agree that players with offensive stats get more defensive recognition. Anyone who saw a lot of him want to push a case for Lindsey Hunter?

[Gibson22]

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First of all, I hope I did not sound angry or disappointed or anything like that, I was just expressing my opinion.

I didn't mean to say that somebody is doing it wrong, I absolutely think that you have to consider longevity in a cumulative way in this type or rankings, I was just arguing about the fact that in my opinion, some of the guys who are getting voted, have their longevity as their only argument above other guys.

I was wrong when I said older guys are getting no condideration, I typed that just like that, when I wrote that I was including myself in that, I should have said that less famous players are getting no consideration, unfortunately. Walt and west are old but very famous, and the other guys who are getting consideration are very famous too.
I do include myself in that, in fact I repeated that don buse and van lier probably deserve consideration, but I can't vote for them now because I don't know them. So I would cancel that and write that less famous players are getting no consideration.

Then, I would say that yeah, defense is one of the reasons why stockton, cp3, kidd (for payton and walt it's obvious) are considered great, but I think that it's more about the fact that they are all-around players more than the fact that they are GREAT defenders. I'm not saying they aren't great defenders.
Then again, I do think that Kidd was an incredible defender, and I do think that Cp3 was the best defender at his position for multiple years, but, swap stockton or cp3 defense with eric snow (a guy who I'm not sure if he deserves the top 10, I would say no), would people actually be less impressed with their defense? That's what I'm trying to say.
Longevity is extremely important, but in my opinion, can't be the only argument to take someone over someone else. But I do understand that for other people, that's not the only argument.

But I was not saying that somebody is 'doing it wrong' that was just my opinion

[LA Bird]

It's worth mentioning that defensive guards who are also great on offense often get more playing time. It's quite difficult to play a defense-only guard for an extended stretch. Good offensive guards who play some defense may thus be able to accrue more defensive value over their career than defensive specialists even if their defense isn't as good on a per possession basis.

That being said, even among All Stars with similar longevity, there is still some bias towards the better offensive player. Cheeks and Blaylock aren't getting anywhere close to the traction of West and CP3, despite being comparable if not better defensive players. It was between Stockton/DJ for me here but seeing as Stockton has fallen out of contention, I'll go with DJ. One of the best shotblocking guards and was consistently on elite defensive teams for most of his career before his athleticism tapered off. His teams were a -4 defense on average from 78~86, which is quite incredible for a non-big especially since he played for 3 different teams during that stretch. WOWY isn't useful here since DJ didn't miss many games but he passes the eye test well.

Vote: Dennis Johnson

[Gibson22]

Anyway, about one hour to go

Dennis Johnson 7 (penbeast0, drpositivity, sincegatlingwasarookie, eminence, SkyHookFTW, lebron3-14-3, LAbird)
Chris Paul 5 (trex_8063, knickfan33, uberhikari, kendogg, homecourtloss)
John Stockton 4 (cecilthesheep, luigi, bounce_9, iggymcfrack)
Jerry West 3 (pandrade83, pistolpeteJR, samurai)
Mookie Baylock 1 (Shaq32)
Nate McMillan 1 (feyki)

[Gibson22]

just for the sake of "fairness", I'm throwing an alert to guys that would probably vote for other guys in contention (CP3, stockton, west)

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ANYWAY, I'd like to state that I like how this is going and I thank you for your partecipation

[Gibson22]

Dennis Johnson wins! Next thread is up.