In your opinion, which season was LeBron at his peak?

[toodles23]

I used to be stuck between 09, 10, and 13 and even considered 17 and 18 but I think I'm starting to side more with 2013. He was incredible across the entire playoffs in many of those Cavs years but after looking into things his statistical drop in the 2013 postseason seems to be a situational thing and a result of the poor fit between Miami's big 3. Even in the Spurs series he famously struggled in he was absolutely killing them with Wade on the bench.

Spacing is such a common sense thing to consider nowadays but it didn't really become a mainstream concept until like 2015 so people often mistook him for just being passive or not having faith in his shot or something. In retrospect that doesn't really make sense because 09/10 LeBron was just as aggressive as he was 8 years later in the 2017 and 2018 playoffs.

With Wade on the bench he was putting up 09/18 postseason numbers through that entire 12-14 span for the RS and PS while leading the Heat to some of the best offenses ever.

From the LeBron thread:

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

His individual numbers with Wade off the court those playoffs are insane too:

33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
8.6 REB/75
8.6 AST/75
1.8 STL/75
1.2 BLK/75 (0.9 at the rim)

All while leading a +17.7 offense (would be the best all time)

Across his entire 12-14 peak in Miami he averaged 36.5 per 75 on +7.8 rTS% with Wade on the bench in the playoffs. If he had the opportunity to play with an off ball motion shooter like Klay for example he realistically could've been putting up 2009/2018 PS numbers every season of his prime.

Bonus fun stat:
In 2014 KD shot 40.8% on jumpshots
In 2013 LeBron shot 42.5% on jumpshots

I have more faith in Heat LeBron's shot, shot selection, and overall skillset compared to early Cavs LeBron and his defensive motor was better than late Cavs LeBron. Kind of the boring answer but yeah. I think I could still be convinced that 09 and 10 were at least just as good as 2013 and depending on how you weigh RS vs PS 2017 or 2018 is perfectly acceptable too since he improved as a playmaker and overall experience matters.

Yeah I've gotten a lot higher on 2013 Lebron recently after rewatching some of the 2013 playoffs and seeing how terrible the spacing was and how massively damaging Wade was due to his injuries, as well as seeing those numbers with Wade off the floor in the Lebron thread. At times teams were guarding him like a complete nonentity, the Spurs even put Splitter on him for a few stretches and had him completely ignore Wade. Wade's on/off numbers are absolutely atrocious, he was -14.6 points per 100 in the postseason.

Honestly it's a miracle they were able to win playing such a destructive player 36 mpg, the Heat won the title because the Lebron + shooters lineups were historically dominant. Had Wade been healthy it probably would have been an all time playoff run for the Heat.

I'm still not sure I would take 2013 over 2009 though. He was a smarter, more polished, experienced player in '13 but he just lost SO much quickness when he bulked up in Miami, to the point where I think he looked quicker after shedding weight from '16-'18 than he did as a Heat.

The added strength probably helped at the margins in some situations, but it doesn't come close to making up for losing so much on his first step, lateral quickness, the ability to maneuver through tight spaces, and he also lost quite a bit on his standstill jump - there's a dunk he had in game 4 of the 09 ECF where he gets caught under the rim with Dwight on his back after catching a lob but manages to explode for a lefty dunk, something I really doubt he could do in Miami carrying all of that extra weight.

I would love to see an alternate timeline where Lebron plays for a progressive organization who embraced spacing early, and where he never bulked up past his 2009 playing weight. We probably would have seen him put up 2009/2018 type numbers annually in the playoffs while winning a bunch of titles.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I’ve got 2016-2018 with every year being viable

2017 was the highest level of play and most impactful, 2018 was the best player probably, 2016 the most legendary

I’m really low on 2013 as a whole to be honest, his best RS sure, but I think with bron at this point the playoffs are what matter, if he had the GOAT RS and won 82 games and then in the playoffs had his 2nd to 3rd best run of his career I’m prolly still taking whatever was his best playoff run over that

[MyUniBroDavis]

I’ve got 2016-2018 with every year being viable

2017 was the highest level of play and most impactful, 2018 was the best player probably, 2016 the most legendary

I’m really low on 2013 as a whole to be honest (relatively speaking), his best RS sure, but I think with bron at this point the playoffs are what matter, if he had the GOAT RS and won 82 games and then in the playoffs had his 2nd to 3rd best run of his career I’m prolly still taking whatever was his best playoff run over that. It’s probably not a top 5 bron season for me

[Eagle4]

I really can't stand when people pick '17/18 over '13. '13 Bron was just a better defender, at the very least he committed more effort and that was partly due to having more stamina. I'd even put 09 over '18.

'13
'09
'17/'18

[MyUniBroDavis]

I really can't stand when people pick '17/18 over '13. '13 Bron was just a better defender, at the very least he committed more effort and that was partly due to having more stamina. I'd even put 09 over '18.

'13
'09
'17/'18

Playoffs lol

[Eagle4]

I really can't stand when people pick '17/18 over '13. '13 Bron was just a better defender, at the very least he committed more effort and that was partly due to having more stamina. I'd even put 09 over '18.

'13
'09
'17/'18

Playoffs lol

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I really can't stand when people pick '17/18 over '13. '13 Bron was just a better defender, at the very least he committed more effort and that was partly due to having more stamina. I'd even put 09 over '18.

'13
'09
'17/'18

Playoffs lol

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol.

Okay and that’s ur opinion, saying you can’t stand it when someone has a different criteria kinda weird lol

[Eagle4]

Playoffs lol

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol.

Okay and that’s ur opinion, saying you can’t stand it when someone has a different criteria kinda weird lol

Nothing weird about it, people state their grievances daily. Like saying how can people prefer strawberry flavor over vanilla. You can still be aware some will prefer strawberry but due to your strong preference, it's puzzling. Everyone on this world does it or has that sentiment about SOMETHING whether its food, politics, religion, female preference etc. Not that serious, if it struck a nerve then convince me otherwise with concrete analysis, if not then leave it.

[LukaTheGOAT]

i have to agree with this

as good of a poster as odinn is, here he essentially used a troll tier reductionist argument "if he was so good why did he lose?"

Yeah, it was definitely a strange post.

specially because it essentially says "there are the best losing effort seasons by jordan, wilt, kareem, hakeem, duncan. statistically 2009 lebron is only the second best of them" as if that was not incredible

I don't think he meant it to come off as winning bias, but moreso, his belief that such a style is not ideal for winning. Nonetheless, considering (at least last we heard from Odinn), he considers 77 Kareem ahead of 2000 Shaq, I am sure he realizes that heavy load guys can still translate well.

[capfan33]

I used to be stuck between 09, 10, and 13 and even considered 17 and 18 but I think I'm starting to side more with 2013. He was incredible across the entire playoffs in many of those Cavs years but after looking into things his statistical drop in the 2013 postseason seems to be a situational thing and a result of the poor fit between Miami's big 3. Even in the Spurs series he famously struggled in he was absolutely killing them with Wade on the bench.

Spacing is such a common sense thing to consider nowadays but it didn't really become a mainstream concept until like 2015 so people often mistook him for just being passive or not having faith in his shot or something. In retrospect that doesn't really make sense because 09/10 LeBron was just as aggressive as he was 8 years later in the 2017 and 2018 playoffs.

With Wade on the bench he was putting up 09/18 postseason numbers through that entire 12-14 span for the RS and PS while leading the Heat to some of the best offenses ever.

From the LeBron thread:

His individual numbers with Wade off the court those playoffs are insane too:

33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
8.6 REB/75
8.6 AST/75
1.8 STL/75
1.2 BLK/75 (0.9 at the rim)

All while leading a +17.7 offense (would be the best all time)

Across his entire 12-14 peak in Miami he averaged 36.5 per 75 on +7.8 rTS% with Wade on the bench in the playoffs. If he had the opportunity to play with an off ball motion shooter like Klay for example he realistically could've been putting up 2009/2018 PS numbers every season of his prime.

Bonus fun stat:
In 2014 KD shot 40.8% on jumpshots
In 2013 LeBron shot 42.5% on jumpshots

I have more faith in Heat LeBron's shot, shot selection, and overall skillset compared to early Cavs LeBron and his defensive motor was better than late Cavs LeBron. Kind of the boring answer but yeah. I think I could still be convinced that 09 and 10 were at least just as good as 2013 and depending on how you weigh RS vs PS 2017 or 2018 is perfectly acceptable too since he improved as a playmaker and overall experience matters.

Yeah I've gotten a lot higher on 2013 Lebron recently after rewatching some of the 2013 playoffs and seeing how terrible the spacing was and how massively damaging Wade was due to his injuries, as well as seeing those numbers with Wade off the floor in the Lebron thread. At times teams were guarding him like a complete nonentity, the Spurs even put Splitter on him for a few stretches and had him completely ignore Wade. Wade's on/off numbers are absolutely atrocious, he was -14.6 points per 100 in the postseason.

Honestly it's a miracle they were able to win playing such a destructive player 36 mpg, the Heat won the title because the Lebron + shooters lineups were historically dominant. Had Wade been healthy it probably would have been an all time playoff run for the Heat.

I'm still not sure I would take 2013 over 2009 though. He was a smarter, more polished, experienced player in '13 but he just lost SO much quickness when he bulked up in Miami, to the point where I think he looked quicker after shedding weight from '16-'18 than he did as a Heat.

The added strength probably helped at the margins in some situations, but it doesn't come close to making up for losing so much on his first step, lateral quickness, the ability to maneuver through tight spaces, and he also lost quite a bit on his standstill jump - there's a dunk he had in game 4 of the 09 ECF where he gets caught under the rim with Dwight on his back after catching a lob but manages to explode for a lefty dunk, something I really doubt he could do in Miami carrying all of that extra weight.

I would love to see an alternate timeline where Lebron plays for a progressive organization who embraced spacing early, and where he never bulked up past his 2009 playing weight. We probably would have seen him put up 2009/2018 type numbers annually in the playoffs while winning a bunch of titles.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts more in-depth, I think Ben's numbers both stunned me and put 2013 over the top with all the other evidence I had seen over the years.

I didn't like 2013 for a long time because I thought it was just kind of a boring answer, and also some of the struggles he had in the playoffs, but Wade's injury was a much bigger deal than it may have seemed at the time. Was almost like playing 4on5 offensively at points due to the lack of spacing. May not be the best offensive or defensive version of Lebron but I definitely think is the best combo of both along with athleticism/experience.

[LukaTheGOAT]

i have to agree with this

as good of a poster as odinn is, here he essentially used a troll tier reductionist argument "if he was so good why did he lose?"

Yeah, it was definitely a strange post.

specially because it essentially says "there are the best losing effort seasons by jordan, wilt, kareem, hakeem, duncan. statistically 2009 lebron is only the second best of them" as if that was not incredible

I don't think he meant it to come off as winning bias, but moreso, his belief that such a style is not ideal for winning. Nonetheless, considering (at least last we heard from Odinn), he considers 77 Kareem ahead of 2000 Shaq, I am sure he realizes that heavy load guys can still translate well.

[No-more-rings]

It’s always funny to see people basically blame Wade for Lebron’s struggles in the 2013 finals. Without his game 4 performance they lose in 5 games.

[falcolombardi]

It’s always funny to see people basically blame Wade for Lebron’s struggles in the 2013 finals. Without his game 4 performance they lose in 5 games.

having a bad playoffs =/= not having any great game

wade clearly struggled with his injuries in that postseason, is not his fault, but denying that health affected his play that postseason would be odd when stats and watching clearly showed it

now, that doesnt invalidate arguments against 2013 lebron, many still feel his struggles against the spurs cannot just be explained as wade fault (although the data for that run is eyebrow raising) ans that his lack of trust in his own jumper was a bigger or comparable issue

[ardee]

I really can't stand when people pick '17/18 over '13. '13 Bron was just a better defender, at the very least he committed more effort and that was partly due to having more stamina. I'd even put 09 over '18.

'13
'09
'17/'18

Playoffs lol

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

People keep saying this... but was that really the case? In the games he played in 2017, he had the Cavs on a 57 win pace, the same as 2016. In 2018 in particular he was really good in the RS. He needed to be because once Kyrie left the cupboard was quite bare for the Cavs. He had a 29 PER and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In 2017 he had the fourth highest TS% of his career, and in 2018 he had the third.

Also, why are you saying "gaudy offensive stats" like it's a negative? He needed to do that for the team to win, especially in 2018.

If you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

[falcolombardi]

Playoffs lol

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

People keep saying this... but was that really the case? In the games he played in 2017, he had the Cavs on a 57 win pace, the same as 2016. In 2018 in particular he was really good in the RS. He needed to be because once Kyrie left the cupboard was quite bare for the Cavs. He had a 29 PER and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In 2017 he had the fourth highest TS% of his career, and in 2018 he had the third.

Also, why are you saying "gaudy offensive stats" like it's a negative? He needed to do that for the team to win, especially in 2018.

If you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

also the part about the ring for 2018 of all seasons

if lebron won a ring in 2018 the goat season debate would be closed and shut, if not winning in -2018- invalidates that season then may as well say all ringless seasons are worthless

[ardee]

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

People keep saying this... but was that really the case? In the games he played in 2017, he had the Cavs on a 57 win pace, the same as 2016. In 2018 in particular he was really good in the RS. He needed to be because once Kyrie left the cupboard was quite bare for the Cavs. He had a 29 PER and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In 2017 he had the fourth highest TS% of his career, and in 2018 he had the third.

Also, why are you saying "gaudy offensive stats" like it's a negative? He needed to do that for the team to win, especially in 2018.

If you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

also the part about the ring for 2018 of all seasons

if lebron won a ring in 2018 the goat season debate would be closed and shut, if not winning in -2018- invalidates that season then may as well say all ringless seasons are worthless

Indeed. No player could have accomplished that but I think he came closer than anyone could. Yet he all but took a game off the Warriors if not for JR's foolishness: then he hurt his hand after (which admittedly is dumb) and the team had no chance. I think under different circumstances they win a couple games in that series for sure. I doubt anyone else even takes that team to the Finals.

After they beat the Celtics, Doris Burke asked Lue in the post-game interview whether he thought taking that particular group to the Finals was LeBron's greatest achievement

She was essentially implying that every other player on the team besides him was a scrub, and she really was telling the truth.

[ardee]

This is not to say that 2012, 2013 and 2014 were not all all-time great seasons. They were, 2013 and 2014 in particular. He just hit another level in 2017 and 2018. That's why he's the GOAT.

[falcolombardi]

People keep saying this... but was that really the case? In the games he played in 2017, he had the Cavs on a 57 win pace, the same as 2016. In 2018 in particular he was really good in the RS. He needed to be because once Kyrie left the cupboard was quite bare for the Cavs. He had a 29 PER and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In 2017 he had the fourth highest TS% of his career, and in 2018 he had the third.

Also, why are you saying "gaudy offensive stats" like it's a negative? He needed to do that for the team to win, especially in 2018.

If you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

also the part about the ring for 2018 of all seasons

if lebron won a ring in 2018 the goat season debate would be closed and shut, if not winning in -2018- invalidates that season then may as well say all ringless seasons are worthless

Indeed. No player could have accomplished that but I think he came closer than anyone could. Yet he all but took a game off the Warriors if not for JR's foolishness: then he hurt his hand after (which admittedly is dumb) and the team had no chance. I think under different circumstances they win a couple games in that series for sure. I doubt anyone else even takes that team to the Finals.

After they beat the Celtics, Doris Burke asked Lue in the post-game interview whether he thought taking that particular group to the Finals was LeBron's greatest achievement

She was essentially implying that every other player on the team besides him was a scrub, and she really was telling the truth.

that run was bitter sweet indeed, the game 1 ending and the dumb hand injury that gave people ammo to blame lebron for losing

in a different world where cavs win game 1 i wonder if cavs may give warriors a scare (think getting close to a game 7) which on its own would have been wild

[ardee]

also the part about the ring for 2018 of all seasons

if lebron won a ring in 2018 the goat season debate would be closed and shut, if not winning in -2018- invalidates that season then may as well say all ringless seasons are worthless

Indeed. No player could have accomplished that but I think he came closer than anyone could. Yet he all but took a game off the Warriors if not for JR's foolishness: then he hurt his hand after (which admittedly is dumb) and the team had no chance. I think under different circumstances they win a couple games in that series for sure. I doubt anyone else even takes that team to the Finals.

After they beat the Celtics, Doris Burke asked Lue in the post-game interview whether he thought taking that particular group to the Finals was LeBron's greatest achievement

She was essentially implying that every other player on the team besides him was a scrub, and she really was telling the truth.

that run was bitter sweet indeed, the game 1 ending and the dumb hand injury that gave people ammo to blame lebron for losing

in a different world where cavs win game 1 i wonder if cavs may give warriors a scare (think getting close to a game 7) which on its own would have been wild

I think that series ends 4-2 in Golden State's favor most likely. They win game 1, likely get blown out in game 2, probably steal 1 at home and then GSW wins out. Likely the same as the 2015 series did. Crazy to think how ridiculous LeBron's averages would have been that series if he was healthy.

[Eagle4]

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

People keep saying this... but was that really the case? In the games he played in 2017, he had the Cavs on a 57 win pace, the same as 2016. In 2018 in particular he was really good in the RS. He needed to be because once Kyrie left the cupboard was quite bare for the Cavs. He had a 29 PER and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In 2017 he had the fourth highest TS% of his career, and in 2018 he had the third.

Also, why are you saying "gaudy offensive stats" like it's a negative? He needed to do that for the team to win, especially in 2018.

If you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

also the part about the ring for 2018 of all seasons

if lebron won a ring in 2018 the goat season debate would be closed and shut, if not winning in -2018- invalidates that season then may as well say all ringless seasons are worthless

Except I never stated it was worthless I merely used his ring in '13 to illustrate the full extent of his dominance that season. Ringless seasons aren't worthless but they obviously hold merit, hence why the majority still have MJ over LeBron and to ardee point, you can definitely make the claim that Lebron or didn't coast in 17 or not, his '13 regular season was still superior in totality.