E-Balla wrote:freethedevil wrote:
And I'm using league averages because it's how we can determine whether or not Harden's percentages are good. We don't have midrange percentages from the 80s to compare his percentages to those guys, but we can compare him to his peers and say his midrange game is very bad compared to them. Like outlier level badness.
Bro, are you trying to argue 90 superstars are better in a vacuum or that he's worse relative to his peers?
His combination of 3 point shooting and passing is something they don't need to match, because they have more athleticism and play different positions. Harden can't match their finishing and defense either. Doesn't change the fact that Hakeem's shooting isn't a major weakness, Barkley's outlier level physical dominance made up for his weakness shooting, and Harden's midrange game limits his scoring ability on half the floor which means defenses in the playoffs can tear him apart by leaving him open in the biggest area in the halfcourt.
He only played 20 years ago... His career coincided with tons of guys Harden also played. We can see, using their common competition, that Barkley was in a realm of athletic few players are in today or ever. It's not like eras are clearly defined, careers intersect. Plus the court has the same dimensions and the ball is the same. Like we can clearly see that Barkley had insane speed in transition and incredible explosion ala Wade. Unless they played on smaller courts back then and I wasn't aware.
You're arguing superstars from the 90's are better, but now you're going to say that the eras aren't different? What? The league has greatly changed in 20 years. It's easier to cultivate various offensive skills and defenses have been forced to do more things to combat. not to mention the talent pool is larger and more varied. Regardless if you're gonna argue player makeup hasn't changed, then i don't see how you're gonna try to argue 90's superstars are better than 2010 ones. Either there was change, or there wasn't it.
Correction, jokic is more "skilled" than all of the players you've listed. He can shoot from anywhere on the court, can make any pass and is a better athlete than magic johnson was.
Jokic couldn't dream of doing this. That's before we add in the fact that Magic is one of the fastest 6-9 players in league history.
And how is he more skilled than all those guys? Lets see, he can shoot from the three, the midrange, can post up and can score from the interior. He can make any kind of pass. He switches, is a good swiper and knows how to jump passing lanes well. Really only "skill" disparity would be bewteen his passing and bird's. He also isn't quite the interior finisher some of these guys are but he more than makes up for that with his passing and shooting.
Compared to Magic is he better at passing? Nope. Handling the ball? Nope. Scoring in the post? Nope. Shooting FTs? Nope. Shooting 3s? Nope. Midrange shooting? Nope. There's not a single thing on a basketball court outside of rebounding and blocking shots Jokic does better than 1990 Magic.
Huh? Jokic is definitely the better shooter. He's hit it with better effiency at higher volume. Johnnson has a few nice years but even those don't match jokic's best. There's not argument for magic being a better shooter. Magic's not a better ball handler either. The rules don't allow him to be. He also can't set screens
Skillset? You mean shooting ability? That's one skill. Now it's an important skill, but it's one skill.
Huh? Did you forget midrange, free throws, cutting, setting screes, layups, clogging lanes, switching, dribbling. He's also a very good passer and ball handler. Curry is easily more skilled off the ball than any of the guys you've listed. Which btw is another huge advantage modern superstars have. They're much better off the ball players. He can score from everywhere efficiently. Wtf? teams defend him unqiuely because he presents a threat 90 players didn't. And since you like midrange, did you forget kd, the best midrange scorer ever? who also can hit threes well and dunk.
Also yeah, magic's fast. Jokic's stronger and sturdier. There's a **** ton of players in the league with magic level athelticism
And Kyrie is a horrible passer, but undeniably one of the most skilled players ever.
He's not a horrible passer. He's ineffective in today's league, but his actual ability in a vacuum is excellent. He hits cutters early, cn hold defenders in place with his eyes and hit every half court pass in the book. There isn't a pass he can't make aside from instant quarterback hail mary's you see from the jokic's lebron's, westbrook's or draymond green's of the league. And still there's more players who can do that now then there was in 1990. Only exception i can think of to that is bird's whose touch passing is admittedly a level above anyone in the league today(or ever).
Now look at his resiliency in the postseason compared to other guys that I mention lack well rounded skill sets. Again it's not that everyone doesn't have a well rounded skill set, but they're more likely not to. Tons of less athletic guys like Kyrie and Jokic still need well rounded skillsets to be valuable.
Comapred to who? Giannis? Your his
offensive skills set isn't as well rounded as 90's players, but his defensive skillset is more well rounded than anyone from the 90's Coincidentally while he doesn't stand out that mmuch offensively, his
defense is what gives him a case for the best player in the game. Lebron? Extremely well rounded AND a physical specimen superior to anyone from the 90's. Curry? Much better off the ball player than any 90's player who can shoot anywhere and do everything offenisvely well aside from shooting over bigs. Durant? A more versatile score than anyone not named jordan who is also decent off the ball. The best players in the game mix athelticism+versatility.
for altheticism? nah. Lebron is more atheltic than anyone on your list. Giannis and davis too. Barring jordan, i don't see anyone on your list whose as athletic as kawhi. Embid atheltically rivals anyone on your list not named mj. Unless you don't value speed, agility, hops or wingspan. The notion that the players of today are less atheltic is kind of silly.
Trash tier opinion. If you legitimately believe Joel Embiid is as athletic as Charles **** Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Patrick Ewing you need your eyes checked. There's really no point in continuing down this path if you believe that.
Lol, so nothing for giannis or ad and lebron? Kawhi? KD? No seriously, what's the argument for any of the players in the 90 against giannis atheltically? Giannis is a 7 footer whose already done's jordan's ft throw dunks whose also extremely fast and has immense vertical and lateral agility, long ass strides, and smooth ass footwork. He also just happens to have garnett's defensive versaility.
Like do you only look at much players weight? Like I guess, if we defined athleticism as how much players weigh, 90's might have a solid argument here.
What about lebron? At least with davis there's a weakness because of his horizontal switching. But hey man i guess if you curse, you know what you're talking about.
But they aren't evenly distributed.
Huh? Lebron is so far above everyone else he has three rings and 4 mvp's. That's half of jordan's, less mvp's than jordan, russell, or kareem. he has led like two historically great regular season teams and one of those teams got upset in the confernce final while the other needed everything to win a ring. His teams haven't even managed one all time postseason run and he's a perennial finals underdog. Someone else has won b2b mvp's in his prime and another player won b2b finals mvp in his prime. How can you objectively say the accomplishments haven't been better distributed than the 90's? The 90's were dominated by one man, one team, the 2010's were dominated by two and those teams combined didn't manage the dominantion of the bulls. What "accomplishments" haven't been better distributed in the 2010's than the 90's? Lebron's "dominance" is unique due to longevity, not how easily he's won things, And that has nothing to do with how weak or strong the league is in a particular season.
LeBron's level of dominance is the type of dominance Shaq would've had if his career didn't intersect with Jordan and Duncan and KG. What makes those old stars' accomplishments more impressive is they had to play other amazing players to accomplish those feats. Now it's LeBron and a bunch of mehs.
I love how you listed a bunch of player's who peaked in the 2000's for an argument for the 90's. Again which 90's player is as athletic as lebron? Oh right, they don't exist.
