What is the argument against Chris Paul in the top 20?

[Colbinii]

It's my belief that "greatness" refers first and foremost to ones accomplishments in the game/sport and his impact on the game/sport. Stats, longevity, eye tests...all that stuff gets factored in secondary if you're talking about greatness and all time ranking. That doesn't mean a player has to have more accomplishments to be considered better or to be ranked higher than the next but he at least has to be in the ballpark. Going by that criteria it's hard ranking him higher than the top 50 let alone top 20.

So you don't understand how people can't have different criteria than you?

Do you live in a box?

Of course. I was explaining the reasoning behind mine and the lack of reason behind yours.

So my player assessment is less nuanced than yours and inferior than yours because I value different things than you?

Jesus Christ has risen

[uberhikari]

I've explained it several times on this board and i know you've seen it, and you were directly involved in a lot of them. You aren't going to agree, so me reiterating isn't gonna get anywhere.

I don't remember every interaction I have had on this board nor do I remember the data people have shared verbatim.

Could you link/find it?

Does it refute what Bad Gatorade has stated numerous times throughout the years?

No it's called were comparing careers, and I'm not going to just grant championships to Cp3. Maybe he could've with better casts, but I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt when others guys have done it.

I'm all for comparing careers but I weigh what a player did on then court and how he helps a team with winning far more than team achievements.

For me, CP3 was basically a top 5 player for 11 years straight. Bird can't say that and most others Point Guards sans Magic/Oscar can claim that as well.

We don't have it for Bird and Magic, that's why it's hard to compare them.

This is irrelevant.

If we conclude that Bird and Magic were the top 2 or 3 players of the 80s and then we can look at current impact data and say "Hey, looks like Paul was top 2 with LeBron for this era" then that alone should be a strong case that Chris Paul is comparable.

Again, comparing cross eras is hard. Looking at CP3 and the current data we have and how he compares to LeBron should vault Paul up a ton in the eyes of people who are savvy with impact data.

It isn't about a direct comparison between Paul and Bird/Magic, rather a "Hey Look, this CP3 guy is right on LeBrons tail and if LeBron is as good or better than Magic/Bird than CP3 should be right on their tails as well".

B-But CP3 had Blake Griffin instead of Kareem Abdul-Jabaar so let's penalize Paul.

Magic won 2-3 championships when Kareem was a worse player than Griffin. So you may not want to resort to sarcasm on that retort.

Yup and this is when the Lakers had a DPOY coming off the bench [Cooper] and a loaded roster in their primes [Worthy, Green, Scott] while they played 2 teams with Negative SRS in the Western Conference playoffs before meeting a depleted Celtics team [Went 7 games against the Bucks in R2 and Pistons in R3].

1988 they played stiffer competition, going 7 games against a decent Jazz team and then 7 games against an exciting Mavericks team Aguirre, Tarpley and Harper [Think of this team like the Paul George Pacers where they gave the Heatles problems]. The Finals victory was impressive against a strong Detroit Pistons team.

Sometimes I can't stand it when people bring up Magic's 9 Finals appearances and 5 chips. The Western Conference Magic played in was the least competitive Conference in NBA history. If Magic and Kareem didn't go to the Finals and win all those chips it would have been a crime.

It would take a lot to convince me that if you switched Magic with CP3 that those Lakers don't win at least 3 championships.

[GhosDini]

I've explained it several times on this board and i know you've seen it, and you were directly involved in a lot of them. You aren't going to agree, so me reiterating isn't gonna get anywhere.

I don't remember every interaction I have had on this board nor do I remember the data people have shared verbatim.

Could you link/find it?

Does it refute what Bad Gatorade has stated numerous times throughout the years?

No it's called were comparing careers, and I'm not going to just grant championships to Cp3. Maybe he could've with better casts, but I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt when others guys have done it.

I'm all for comparing careers but I weigh what a player did on then court and how he helps a team with winning far more than team achievements.

For me, CP3 was basically a top 5 player for 11 years straight. Bird can't say that and most others Point Guards sans Magic/Oscar can claim that as well.

We don't have it for Bird and Magic, that's why it's hard to compare them.

This is irrelevant.

If we conclude that Bird and Magic were the top 2 or 3 players of the 80s and then we can look at current impact data and say "Hey, looks like Paul was top 2 with LeBron for this era" then that alone should be a strong case that Chris Paul is comparable.

Again, comparing cross eras is hard. Looking at CP3 and the current data we have and how he compares to LeBron should vault Paul up a ton in the eyes of people who are savvy with impact data.

It isn't about a direct comparison between Paul and Bird/Magic, rather a "Hey Look, this CP3 guy is right on LeBrons tail and if LeBron is as good or better than Magic/Bird than CP3 should be right on their tails as well".

B-But CP3 had Blake Griffin instead of Kareem Abdul-Jabaar so let's penalize Paul.

Magic won 2-3 championships when Kareem was a worse player than Griffin. So you may not want to resort to sarcasm on that retort.

Yup and this is when the Lakers had a DPOY coming off the bench [Cooper] and a loaded roster in their primes [Worthy, Green, Scott] while they played 2 teams with Negative SRS in the Western Conference playoffs before meeting a depleted Celtics team [Went 7 games against the Bucks in R2 and Pistons in R3].

1988 they played stiffer competition, going 7 games against a decent Jazz team and then 7 games against an exciting Mavericks team Aguirre, Tarpley and Harper [Think of this team like the Paul George Pacers where they gave the Heatles problems]. The Finals victory was impressive against a strong Detroit Pistons team.

Sometimes I can't stand it when people bring up Magic's 9 Finals appearances and 5 chips. The Western Conference Magic played in was the least competitive Conference in NBA history. If Magic and Kareem didn't go to the Finals and win all those chips it would have been a crime.

It would take a lot to convince me that if you switched Magic with CP3 that those Lakers don't win at least 3 championships.

How exactly is CP3 going to a) stay healthy for 9 trips to the finsls and b) recreate Showtime or anything comparable?

Also, youre forgetting that Magic took a trip the finals without Kareem. And during that run he beat a 52 win Houston Rockets, the TLC Warriors, and that stacked Cylde Drexler-led Trailblazer team.

And lastly, if we cant bring up Magic's 9 conference championships bevau se he played in a weak conference then I don't ever want to hear about Lebrons.

[Colbinii]

Sometimes I can't stand it when people bring up Magic's 9 Finals appearances and 5 chips. The Western Conference Magic played in was the least competitive Conference in NBA history. If Magic and Kareem didn't go to the Finals and win all those chips it would have been a crime.

It would take a lot to convince me that if you switched Magic with CP3 that those Lakers don't win at least 3 championships.

How exactly is CP3 going to a) stay healthy for 9 trips to the finsls

I'm not sure he needs to stay healthy for 9, the guy said 3 Championships.

recreate Showtime or anything comparable?

I could be wrong but Paul has routinely led offenses just as efficient as Magics.

Also, youre forgetting that Magic took a trip the finals without Kareem.

88 and 89 Kareem was a shell of himself. Magic essentiallt led them to 3 finals without magic impact from Kareem.

And during that run he beat a 52 win Houston Rockets, the TLC Warriors, and that stacked Cylde Drexler-led Trailblazer team.

Great run in 91 no doubt. First time he played teams on par with what CP3 routinely faced.

And lastly, if we cant bring up Magic's 9 conference championships bevau se he played in a weak conference then I don't ever want to hear about Lebrons.

Quit being a LeBron Stan. LeBron isn't part of this thread. Just because he is your favorite player doesn't mean you need to bring him up.

[Lost92Bricks]

Oscar Robertson made the playoffs 10 times not 6 and he won 8 series not 2, plus he played in an era where there were only 3 series to be played max (not 4). If you wanna talk same age CP3 is 34, and Oscar already got a ring by 34.

It's not Oscar's fault that when he played with a league MVP (who wasn't an MVP prior to Oscar, so that's already a misframing of events) like Paul did he was actually able to win and be a good enough teammate to not be shipped away for an undeniably worse player.

As more time passes I get lower and lower on CP3. He's the biggest example of how off the court chemistry can effect the team because the Clippers and Rockets should've been much better.

The Clippers were a top 5 team in the league when they were healthy. Top 3 in the loaded western conference.

The Rockets were the 2nd best team in the league over the two years Chris was there only behind the Durant/Curry Warriors. A dynasty-level team was the only thing in their way.

Neither one of these teams should've "been much better". They were already some of the best in the league. Just behind a few more talented teams.

[LA Bird]

2018 Paul in place of 1971 Oscar is injured 20 games into the season. No way he holds up for 3,714 minutes in a season.

2018 Paul was injured 1 game into the season and the Rockets still ended up with 65 wins. The 71 Bucks had a comfortable 15 game lead over the #2 seed, and were around +8 SRS in 72/73 when Oscar was out. They are not missing the playoffs and there is no team that year that can stop a Kareem/Paul duo in the postseason.

And I do think the chemistry issues came into play plenty of times in his career. If they didn't he'd still be in Houston playing on a contender right now and the Clippers wouldn't have underachieved so much.

Paul being traded has as much to do with his declined on-court play as any off-court chemistry issues with Harden. There was underlying tension between the two in 2018 already but the Rockets still resigned him to a 4 year max deal. Harden may not like him but Paul is not getting traded anywhere if he had played at his 2018 level and they were winning ~65 games.

Regarding the Clippers' under-performance because they were already +6 over 40 games without Paul, I dug up ElGee's old WOWY spreadsheet and the SRS figures without Paul are:

2012: -0.6 SRS. 1 game. Billups Out, 25+ In + PS (42)
2012: +3.0 SRS. 2 game. 25+ In + PS (16)
2013: +3.9 SRS. 10 game. Griffin, Butler In (76)
2014: +6.0 SRS. 13 game. 25+ In + PS (36)
2014: +1.1 SRS. 5 game. Redick Out, 25+ IN + PS (26)

The Clippers seem to be around +4 over the 2012~14 period without Paul, not +6. Additionally, ElGee's WOWY spreadsheet doesn't include anything after 2015 where by my calculation, Clippers' MOV with Griffin in but Paul out was -4.6 in 2016 (5 games) and -4.0 in 2017 (11 games). Not sure how much the figures change depending on the sample controls but I assume the overall Clippers SRS with Paul out during his time there would be around +1 to +2. At +6 with Paul in, that's around a +4 or +5 player, which seems reasonable to me for a top 20 player of all time. (It's around where ElGee rated Paul in his seasonal valuations as well.)

[Lost92Bricks]

Chris Paul is not playing in Houston because of WESTBROOK being available. A younger, more explosive player with a better contract. Daryl Morey even told Chris he wasn't going to trade him until that suddenly happened (PG and Westbrook trade request).

[GhosDini]

I could be wrong but Paul has routinely led offenses just as efficient as Magics.

Perhaps but those were different offenses in different eras. Thats a big leap to say he could lead that team in that era anywhere near as successfully as Magic.

Part of what made the Showtime Lakers great and allowed them to sustain it was their chemistry and team culture most of which Magic was respinsible for. CP3 is known for bad team chemistry.

Great run in 91 no doubt. First time he played teams on par with what CP3 routinely faced.

Magic routinely faced and beat the Birds Celtics, Dr. Js 76ers, the Bad Boy Pistons, Twin Tower Rockets, Gervins Spurs, the Trailblazers. Go ahead a let me know all the great teams CP3 beat.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I also forgot Curry. So there's that...

Isiah hasn't been Top 20 for like 30 years.

To who? SLAM and SI both recently had him in the Top 20.

And what floor is CP3 raising? He went from a squad that had West, Tyson, Peja to one with Blake, DJ to the Rockets with Harden. None of them achieved much in the end.

His teammates? His team's consistency and elite level of play? The fact he's one of the highest impact playersof his era? I don't know. Maybe "the floor" upheld by most objective measures? Paul has achieved as much as other players in that tier/range.

What impact? Again, using +/- lineup stats doesn't wash with me. otherwise Stockton should be in your Top 3 of all-time list. Those numbers never correlated to dominant teams in the RS or PS. Only great team CP3 was on is the 18 Rockets and he wasn't the main cog. He's the Phillip Rivers of the NBA, great QBR, but "impact" doens't translate to more success.

Which of these players is CP3 better than.....

MJ
Kareem
Kobe
Russell
Lebron
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Wilt
Hakeem
Mailman
DRob
Dr. J
West
Oscar
Moses
Dirk
Durant
Curry
Wade
KG
Stockton
Barkley
Petit
^
That's 25 players. So pick 6 that CP3 is better than.

[Lost92Bricks]

What impact? Again, using +/- lineup stats doesn't wash with me. otherwise Stockton should be in your Top 3 of all-time list. Those numbers never correlated to dominant teams in the RS or PS. Only great team CP3 was on is the 18 Rockets and he wasn't the main cog. He's the Phillip Rivers of the NBA, great QBR, but "impact" doens't translate to more success.

His teammates weren't good enough for those teams to be dominant. Good teammates? Yes, but not great.

[An Unbiased Fan]

What impact? Again, using +/- lineup stats doesn't wash with me. otherwise Stockton should be in your Top 3 of all-time list. Those numbers never correlated to dominant teams in the RS or PS. Only great team CP3 was on is the 18 Rockets and he wasn't the main cog. He's the Phillip Rivers of the NBA, great QBR, but "impact" doens't translate to more success.

His teammates weren't good enough for those teams to be dominant. Good teammates? Yes, but not great.

CP3 had contending supporting casts. The Hornets were a #2, the Clips were always a top level seed, and the Rockets were a high seed. If CP3 has this ATG impact, then why didn't he take them far...ever?

CP3 basically equalled what Minny KG was doing with way worst casts.

[Lost92Bricks]

CP3 had contending supporting casts. The Hornets were a #2, the Clips were always a top level seed, and the Rockets were a high seed. If CP3 has this ATG impact, then why didn't he take them far...ever?

CP3 basically equalled what Minny KG was doing with way worst casts.

His ATG impact was what got them to that point. They were lottery teams before he joined.

[Jaqua92]

The English language.

CP3 being a top 20 player of all time is an insult to people who think.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Dr Positivity]

He is a top 20 talent but injuries combined with poor leadership would put him out of mine

[agetro23]

What impact? Again, using +/- lineup stats doesn't wash with me. otherwise Stockton should be in your Top 3 of all-time list. Those numbers never correlated to dominant teams in the RS or PS. Only great team CP3 was on is the 18 Rockets and he wasn't the main cog. He's the Phillip Rivers of the NBA, great QBR, but "impact" doens't translate to more success.

The data I linked. That's what impact.

You can bury your head and the sand. And pretend it doesn't mean anything. To those living in reality though? its one of BEST measures of impact to date. Not to mention reputable around the league. Unlike most analytics "RAPM" separates and adjusts for opponents, minutes and lineups. Again, its neither box-score or raw +/-

Moreover, according to you, the only "great team" CP played for was the '18 Rockets. So why are you asking about TEAM success? Paul is as "successful" as most guys in the 20-30 range. Period.

I originally said "20ish" by the way. Never "20". The list you're asking for is irrelevant.

[An Unbiased Fan]

What impact? Again, using +/- lineup stats doesn't wash with me. otherwise Stockton should be in your Top 3 of all-time list. Those numbers never correlated to dominant teams in the RS or PS. Only great team CP3 was on is the 18 Rockets and he wasn't the main cog. He's the Phillip Rivers of the NBA, great QBR, but "impact" doens't translate to more success.

The data I linked. That's what impact.

You can bury your head and the sand. And pretend it doesn't mean anything. To those living in reality though? its one of BEST measures of impact to date. Not to mention reputable around the league. Unlike most analytics "RAPM" separates and adjusts for opponents, minutes and lineups. Again, its neither box-score or raw +/-

Moreover, according to you, the only "great team" CP played for was the '18 Rockets. So why are you asking about TEAM success? Paul is as "successful" as most guys in the 20-30 range. Period.

I originally said "20ish" by the way. Never "20". The list you're asking for is irrelevant.

Cool...so is Stockton in your Top 3 ever? RAPM is a joke, and has never correlated to actual winning impact. It's lineup data, ntohing more.

[agetro23]

Cool...so is Stockton in your Top 3 ever? RAPM is a joke, and has never correlated to actual winning impact. It's lineup data, ntohing more.

You're confused. Why would he be in my Top 3? lol

The first 12 years of Stockton's career weren't even tracked. Not by traditional RAPM anyway.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Cool...so is Stockton in your Top 3 ever? RAPM is a joke, and has never correlated to actual winning impact. It's lineup data, ntohing more.

You're confused. Why would he be in my Top 3? lol

The first 12 years of Stockton's career weren't even tracked. Not by traditional RAPM anyway.

I'm using a +/- metic RAPTOR https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebron-or-mj-raptor-picks-the-best-nba-players-of-the-past-40-years/

You''ll be happy to know CP3 is #4 all-time.

[agetro23]

Cool...so is Stockton in your Top 3 ever? RAPM is a joke, and has never correlated to actual winning impact. It's lineup data, ntohing more.

You're confused. Why would he be in my Top 3? lol

The first 12 years of Stockton's career weren't even tracked. Not by traditional RAPM anyway.

I'm using a +/- metic RAPTOR https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebron-or-mj-raptor-picks-the-best-nba-players-of-the-past-40-years/

You''ll be happy to know CP3 is #4 all-time.

That's great. I never brought up "RAPTOR" though.

*shrugs*

[Dr Positivity]

I don't think Paul had good chemistry with his most talented teammates (Blake/Harden). It's almost like they didn't like each other or something