Better defender: Michael Jordan vs Tim Duncan

[Clyde Frazier]

And skimming this thread... Duncan being an ATG defender isn't an opinion specific to the PC board at all. He and Jordan were both considered elite at their position. Duncan arguably gets the edge due to rim protection having a higher impact on defense than perimeter D.

[HeartBreakKid]

Relative to position, you gotta go Mike.

There were numerous PF/C's that were more dominant defensively than Duncan, can you say the same thing about Jordan?

There were numerous more power forwards more dominant defensively than Duncan? Name them.

[Odinn21]

I'll just come out and say it;
The Jordan fans are the most insufferable and delusional fans in this part of the message board.

Informal warning: this is considered baiting. Don't post like that again or an official warning will be issued. Thanks.

Thanks for the kind approach. You know that wasn't my intention to bait people but I understand your point. Will be more careful. Cheers.

[JordansBulls]

In general the big, but would Tim Duncan even be able to d up Karl Malone in the finals like Jordan did and take the ball away and hit the game winner?

[LA Bird]

Judging from these replies, you can probably make a thread asking who is taller between Michael Jordan and Dwight Howard and there would still be some fans saying it is MJ because he is taller relative to his position. The question OP asked is straight forward and does not contain any mention of value relative to position. The very fact that people immediately jump to position-relative defense to even make this debate close for Jordan shows that Duncan is clearly the better defender. If there is a thread titled "Better center: Shaq vs Yao", will anybody say it is Yao because he is better relative to his fellow countrymen? No, because nobody would make that assumption and answer a question OP didn't ask. Duncan is a better defender than Jordan period and that's the only thing that matters in this thread.

[G35]

Bigs over smalls for defensive impact.

Now you may make an argument that relative to position Jordan is better than Duncan. I think Jordan is definitely in the running for top five SG defenders (this is not in any order just how I remembered them):

Moncrief (I see him as a SG on defense)
Tony Allen
Alvin Robertson
Jordan
Dumars


Then if you compare Duncan to the great bigs or specifically centers he might have a hard time making the top 5 or 10:

Wilt
Russell
Eaton
Hakeem
DRob
Ben Wallace
Dwight Howard
Ewing
Gilmore
Mutombo

But if you go h2h on who had better impact, its no contest its Duncan.....

[70sFan]

So 10 votes for Jordan with argument being that he's better relative to position... sorry, but it's not good argument. Can anybody else give me good reason to reconsider my choice?

[rrravenred]

Hard to see the argument for Jordan here.

MAYBE if you really value pure peak as well as consider TD as having a strong defensive cast and Jordan having a weak one.

But I wouldn't make the argument. TD had more defensive gravity in more vital areas.

Certainly not saying Jordan was a defensive slouch, ofc.

Sent from my SM-A530F using RealGM mobile app

[Baski]

Relative to position, you gotta go Mike.

There were numerous PF/C's that were more dominant defensively than Duncan, can you say the same thing about Jordan?

Why would vote based on that? The question is who was a better defender.

Because otherwise the answer they want to say would be ridiculous. It's like those threads of Kyrie vs "Better player" where people randomly insert "if you want somebody to take that last shot then Kyrie is your guy" knowing full well it's irrelevant to the question.

[mysticOscar]

In a vacuum, Duncan is the clear better defender.

But lets not forget MJ enabled the bulls to mish mash defensive minded, rebounding focused but an overall average (or below average) offensive group of players.

We have to give some credence to MJ in being able to adjust his game to the system and not the other way around...therefore not effecting at all the defensive impact of his team mates around him..and just allowing them to play to there strengths.

So in short Duncan individually is a better defender....but if you ask me to build a team with MJ that would be as good defensively as Duncan's team but have a better offensive ceiling....I would say it would be easier than the other way around.

[70sFan]

In a vacuum, Duncan is the clear better defender.

But lets not forget MJ enabled the bulls to mish mash defensive minded, rebounding focused but an overall average (or below average) offensive group of players.

We have to give some credence to MJ in being able to adjust his game to the system and not the other way around...therefore not effecting at all the defensive impact of his team mates around him..and just allowing them to play to there strengths.

So in short Duncan individually is a better defender....but if you ask me build to build a team with MJ that would be as good defensively as Duncan's team but have a better offensive ceiling....I would say it would be easier than the other way around.

It makes sense, although it's important to note that Duncan led 5 better defenses than the best of 1990s Bulls and even more better than Bulls 2nd best. Duncan's Spurs is 2nd best defensive dynasty in NBA history, you can't reach that with Jordan as your best defensive player.

I don't agree that Jordan played with weak offensive teams in 1990s. In 1980s? Sure, but then the results were far from great.

I also don't agree that Duncan limits team's celling on offense. In 2000-04 played with much worse offensive supporting casts than Jordan and Spurs still managed to be clearly abive average offensive team. Sure, Jordan is far better offensive player but Duncan thrived with defensive specialists.

Good job on finding interesting sight on this topic though! Finally something that made me think twice about that, but I think it is more about Jordan being better overall player than defensive player (at your sight of course).

[mdonnelly1989]

Well, this is obviously Duncan because even *insert whoever is your GOAT perimeter defender* won't stack up to the 2nd-3rd tier of ATG defensive bigs (Gobert, Chandler, Mutombo, etc.), let alone a 1st tier guy like Duncan. Defensive impact of bigs always trumps defensive impact of non-bigs. A better argument would be if the defensive gap between Duncan and his contemporaries (KG, D-Rob, Shaq) is greater than Jordan and his contemporaries (Moncrief, Cooper, Artest, Kawhi). But then again, this seems like a troll thread and I don't quite understand this contrarian obsession with trying to constantly lump all MJ supporters into the same camp just because a vocal minority happens to have outlandish opinions on him.

A better question for you how do you rank the best defensive big men of all time and the best defensive guards

And who does have a larger gap between them and their contemporaries Duncan or MJ?

[Mavericksfan]

Well, this is obviously Duncan because even *insert whoever is your GOAT perimeter defender* won't stack up to the 2nd-3rd tier of ATG defensive bigs (Gobert, Chandler, Mutombo, etc.), let alone a 1st tier guy like Duncan. Defensive impact of bigs always trumps defensive impact of non-bigs. A better argument would be if the defensive gap between Duncan and his contemporaries (KG, D-Rob, Shaq) is greater than Jordan and his contemporaries (Moncrief, Cooper, Artest, Kawhi). But then again, this seems like a troll thread and I don't quite understand this contrarian obsession with trying to constantly lump all MJ supporters into the same camp just because a vocal minority happens to have outlandish opinions on him.

A better question for you how do you rank the best defensive big men of all time and the best defensive guards

And who does have a larger gap between them and their contemporaries Duncan or MJ?

I feel like this is a disingenuous approach.

Why is Duncan compared to all bigs but people wanna ignore other wings for Jordan?

Compared to wings it’s not even close. Compared to guards it becomes more interesting but in that case we should be comparing Tim to power forwards(where he played the majority of his peak)

[mdonnelly1989]

Well, this is obviously Duncan because even *insert whoever is your GOAT perimeter defender* won't stack up to the 2nd-3rd tier of ATG defensive bigs (Gobert, Chandler, Mutombo, etc.), let alone a 1st tier guy like Duncan. Defensive impact of bigs always trumps defensive impact of non-bigs. A better argument would be if the defensive gap between Duncan and his contemporaries (KG, D-Rob, Shaq) is greater than Jordan and his contemporaries (Moncrief, Cooper, Artest, Kawhi). But then again, this seems like a troll thread and I don't quite understand this contrarian obsession with trying to constantly lump all MJ supporters into the same camp just because a vocal minority happens to have outlandish opinions on him.

A better question for you how do you rank the best defensive big men of all time and the best defensive guards

And who does have a larger gap between them and their contemporaries Duncan or MJ?

I feel like this is a disingenuous approach.

Why is Duncan compared to all bigs but people wanna ignore other wings for Jordan?

Compared to wings it’s not even close. Compared to guards it becomes more interesting but in that case we should be comparing Tim to power forwards(where he played the majority of his peak)

That's tricky comparison because Duncan also played a lot like a Center in terms of guarding mainly the post

[Mavericksfan]

A better question for you how do you rank the best defensive big men of all time and the best defensive guards

And who does have a larger gap between them and their contemporaries Duncan or MJ?

I feel like this is a disingenuous approach.

Why is Duncan compared to all bigs but people wanna ignore other wings for Jordan?

Compared to wings it’s not even close. Compared to guards it becomes more interesting but in that case we should be comparing Tim to power forwards(where he played the majority of his peak)

That's tricky comparison because Duncan also played a lot like a Center in terms of guarding mainly the post

Jordan certainly played like a wing defensively the way he roamed and caused havoc with help D

[Dr Spaceman]

In a vacuum, Duncan is the clear better defender.

But lets not forget MJ enabled the bulls to mish mash defensive minded, rebounding focused but an overall average (or below average) offensive group of players.

We have to give some credence to MJ in being able to adjust his game to the system and not the other way around...therefore not effecting at all the defensive impact of his team mates around him..and just allowing them to play to there strengths.

So in short Duncan individually is a better defender....but if you ask me to build a team with MJ that would be as good defensively as Duncan's team but have a better offensive ceiling....I would say it would be easier than the other way around.

There was nothing average about Pippen or Grant offensively. Those guys were great offensive players.

Going from Grant to Rodman on the second three peat was indeed a big offensive downgrade aside from the rebounding but the upgrade to Kukoc and Kerr from Paxson/Armstrong more than makes up the gap IMO.

Those were flat out elite offensive supporting casts.

[Clyde Frazier]

Well, this is obviously Duncan because even *insert whoever is your GOAT perimeter defender* won't stack up to the 2nd-3rd tier of ATG defensive bigs (Gobert, Chandler, Mutombo, etc.), let alone a 1st tier guy like Duncan. Defensive impact of bigs always trumps defensive impact of non-bigs. A better argument would be if the defensive gap between Duncan and his contemporaries (KG, D-Rob, Shaq) is greater than Jordan and his contemporaries (Moncrief, Cooper, Artest, Kawhi). But then again, this seems like a troll thread and I don't quite understand this contrarian obsession with trying to constantly lump all MJ supporters into the same camp just because a vocal minority happens to have outlandish opinions on him.

A better question for you how do you rank the best defensive big men of all time and the best defensive guards

And who does have a larger gap between them and their contemporaries Duncan or MJ?

All that would mean is there are less elite defensive guards than elite defensive bigs. That doesn't automatically make jordan a better defender than duncan, though as you still aren't comapring the two directly.

[Baski]

In general the big, but would Tim Duncan even be able to d up Karl Malone in the finals like Jordan did and take the ball away and hit the game winner?

Well yes that specific scenario is the only way in all of recorded history to win a championship. One's ability to do precisely that should weigh in on how good of a defender he was

[Pg81]

Tim Duncan easily.

[Amares]

The answer is obvious, the only that will take Jordan here are his fans. Not sure what's the point of creating topics like this, the results can be easily forseen.