RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #15 (Dirk Nowitzki)

[DQuinn1575]

I would rather it go to the defensive anchor of a 5 SRS, -4.6 rDRTG team rather than to the offensive anchor of a negative SRS team, yeah. MVP is famously rarely about who is “better”, but if it is about the best regular season player then Moses still does not win that award.



Yeah when you have a bad team and remove two of the three players capable of playing real minutes, and then that third player falls off a cliff, and then your entire team stops trying, the results tend to be awful. Shocker.



Who says 1982/83 Caldwell was any sort of ace defender? He was startable. On a team with Maurice Cheeks and Bobby Jones, he was there to not be a liability.



Yes, when I say not playing 30 minutes, that means 20 minutes. Another good one.



Like how they went from being sixteenth in defence to... eighteenth? Again, stunner. What a collapse.



Well they blatantly did the same thing the next year and save for Hinkie few front offices have ever come outright and said, “WE ARE TRYING TO LOSE,” but I am sure it is more convenient to pretend they were willfully ignorant about what the best course for their team was.



So why mention him having a top twenty-five peak.

Caldwell Jones:
1. Twice led the ABA in blocks
2. Was 1st team all-defense twice in the 80s
3. Was starting for one of the top 3 teams in the league for years while scoring 7 ppg
4. Had a very good reputation as a good defensive player

If you are questioning his defense then you shouldn't be voting in this.

-> Cites media accolades
-> Strawmans("not an ace defender"=/not good)
-> says other people shouldn't vote

Hmm

The all-defense teams were selected by the league coaches not the media. If you are going to criticize me, please be accurate in your facts.
Based on the board, I am probably wrong in saying someone shouldn’t vote here. It’s not mine to determine policy here.

[trex_8063]

-> Cites media accolades
-> Strawmans("not an ace defender"=/not good)

To be more specific, mailmp had implied he was merely "not a liability" defensively (which is a pretty low bar to clear). And on the flip-side, did anyone actually use the term "ace defender" to describe C.Jones before mailmp did?

We're talking about a guy who objectively was NOT good offensively (perhaps not Ben Wallace bad, but MUCH closer to him than he is to even a Rudy Gobert), but who nonetheless pulled a 17-year career [mostly as a starter, at times for good teams].

Was he just holy crap lucky in team circumstance (for nearly two decades), or was there something there that teams saw value in [read again: it was absolutely NOT his offense]?

Added to that, yes, there were some accolades/attention specifically earned by his defense.

Also added to that there is some statistical backing: both in terms of box-based defensive metrics, and in defensive on/off [negative number is a good thing]:

'77: -8.4 [team best by far]
'78: -0.3
'79: -5.8 [team-best by far, if excluding Marlon Redmond's 23 minutes]
'80: -5.4 [2nd on team]
'81: -1.1
'82: -1.8

Added to that I'll add my own limited [handful of games, mostly from '82 Sixers (edit: and '77 Sixers; so maybe a pinch more than a handful)] eye-test, in which he looks like a legit rim protector to me.


So, I guess we could just put this as a straight yes/no question: semantics of what "ace defender" means aside [and again: did anyone actually use this term before mailmp?], do you think Caldwell Jones was a good defensive player in the early-mid 80s, yes or no?

If the answer is yes, then what are you/we even arguing about? Is it just being contrarian for its own sake?
Because that he was "good" [to be semantically clear, I mean: more than marginally above average] is all anyone else has been advocating.

And if you think he was NOT "good" defensively, then all I can say is the onus is probably more on you to make that case.

[mailmp]

I think I have pretty clearly made the case that the Rockets going from:

50% opposing eFG, 14.3% opposing turnover rate, and 66.1% defensive rebounding rate

to

50.5% opposing eFG, 15.4% opposing turnover rate, and 65.4% defensive rebounding rate

... is not any sort of indicator of Moses’s secret defensive excellence, but heaven forbid that part of that analysis relies on not treating 1983 Caldwell’s 29.8 minutes per game as basically Ben Wallace...

[trex_8063]

Malone has no ring... just imagine his cast stepped up like the Mavs cast did against the Heat big 3 and that MJ had a bad series like LBJ did in 11.

I believe the 11 ring is overrating Dirk.

He didn't even perform better in the 11 finals than Malone did in 98:

Dirk 26 PPG 9.7 RPG 2 APG 0.7 SPG 0.7 BPG 53.7ts% 16.6 GmSC

Malone 25 PPG 10.5 RPG 3.8 APG 1 SPG 1.2 BPG 55.3 ts% 18.5 GmSC

Malone has more playoff great runs than Dirk, and when comparing their seasons I would say it's legit to say Dirk has the top 2 (I don't agree but see the argument) but then Maloen has several seasons better than Dirk's 3rd best.

Here are their playoff chances (based on my regular season Win Shares -> Playoff Odds formula):

Karl Malone: 17.23
Dirk Nowitzki: 16.27
Moses Malone: 15.46
Julius Erving: 14.04
David Robinson: 12.25
Kevin Durant: 9.53
George Mikan: 8.45

I noted in a recent Mailman thread that I've come to think he was potentially robbed of a title in '98 by the officiating and rules of the time....

The scene: Game 6 of the '98 Finals
In the 2nd quarter, with the shotclock running down, Howard Eisley heaves like a 27-30' trey which goes in......but the refs waive it off as after the buzzer. Subsequent replay clearly shows that he EASILY got it off in time (the ball is literally about 8' or so out of his hand when the clock goes to zero); but at that time in the NBA there is no replay amending of calls........so the trey REMAINS WAIVED OFF.

Fast-forward to the 4th quarter, just under 4 minutes remaining, Jazz lead 79-77 (and fwiw, they took that lead on the previous possession via Malone getting the rebound on a Hornacek miss and subsequently hitting an ~10' jumper). Ron Harper makes a desperation jumper as the shotclock goes off, to tie the game 79-79; the refs count the basket. While this call was MUCH closer than the Eisley one [which again, was not remotely close], the replay clearly shows Harper did NOT get the shot off in time. But at that time in the NBA there is no replay amending of calls.......so the basket remains on the board.

These two missed calls amount to a 5-pt swing....in a game that was decided by a single point. And that's before we even get to the potential push call on Jordan on the final play [to be clear: I think a no-call was the right decision, but merely saying that if they HAD called anything on that play--->an offensively foul on Jordan is the ONLY possible call].

Obviously we can't say exactly how things would have played out with these two calls being made correctly; but given the outcome, etc, I think it's highly likely the Jazz would have won it.

This would have tied the series; game 7 was to be played in Salt Lake City, and it was questionable if Pippen would be able to play AT ALL if it did go to seven (he certainly would have been FAR below 100%, at any rate [back injury]).

If I'm hazarding a guess, I think it's ~60+% likely the Jazz come away with the '98 title if the refs simply don't blow two crucial calls (in a game that was otherwise reffed pretty evenly imo).

[trex_8063]

I think I have pretty clearly made the case that the Rockets going from:

50% opposing eFG, 14.3% opposing turnover rate, and 66.1% defensive rebounding rate

to

50.5% opposing eFG, 15.4% opposing turnover rate, and 65.4% defensive rebounding rate

... is not any sort of indicator of Moses’s secret defensive excellence, but heaven forbid that part of that analysis relies on not treating 1983 Caldwell’s 29.8 minutes per game as basically Ben Wallace...

Again, I'm pretty sure these are hyperbolic strawmen:

*Did anyone credit Moses with "defensive excellence"?
**Did anyone say C.Jones was as good defensively as Ben Wallace?

[mailmp]

Nah, strawmen are when you have no real response to the issue at hand and instead make it a case of me not properly appreciating Caldwell’s six years as a bench player or how he led the ABA in blocks in 1974 and 1975.

When the specific argument raised was that the 76ers went from “slightly below average” on defence to “absolutely terrible” simply by swapping Moses with “very good defender” 1983 Caldwell Jones, yes, I would say that is a pretty blatant implication of the (poorly substantiated) hypothesis that Moses was actually exerting substantial defensive impact on the team.

[DQuinn1575]

Nah, strawmen are when you have no real response to the issue at hand and instead make it a case of me not properly appreciating Caldwell’s six years as a bench player or how he led the ABA in blocks in 1974 and 1975.

When the specific argument raised was that the 76ers went from “slightly below average” on defence to “absolutely terrible” simply by swapping Moses with “very good defender” 1983 Caldwell Jones, yes, I would say that is a pretty blatant implication of the (poorly substantiated) hypothesis that Moses was actually exerting substantial defensive impact on the team.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood, I thought the point was that the Sixers went from 7th in Def Rating in 1982 to 5th in 1983, so they got better on defense, with a flip of Moses for Caldwell Jones. I thought that was one of the better arguments of Moses's defense, which I think even his biggest backers will concede that wasn't at the level of most of the other top centers of all-time. Houston's defense was pretty bad during his whole time there.

[DQuinn1575]

Perhaps I've got to rethink my thoughts on KD vs Dr. J. I'm changing him to my 3rd vote.

What made you change your voting for KD?

I went to see who you are voting for after your Doctor J post - I don't see that you did - wondering your thoughts on Doc, Malone, and Nowitzki. I view Malone and Dirk similar to how you had Doc - top 5 player in the league for a long time, although realistically none of them were probably ever the best player in the game. I dont place a lot of value on the 74 ABA title very much, but in 76 the Nets beat two pretty good teams in the playoffs, probably as good as the three teams the Celtics beat. I always thought the 76 Nets would have done well against the 75 Warriors NBA champs, but am still probably too biased to think they were better than the 76 Celts. But looking at it hopefully being smarter, I think they have real good case as second best team in the world in 1976, with Doc clearly the leader.

[giordunk]

No Stephen Curry votes yet? I see a case for him over some of the names being thrown out there.

[freethedevil]

Because I mentioned apg.... where?

Because there's zero argument for durant as being more consistent when you consider curry is consistently creatiing 10 chances a game while KD's scoring plummets against good playoff defenses.

Well... I can give you some examples of that not being true. Specially in GSW.

Given he didn' do anything impressive against the jazz or the rockets(he only good defenses) you sure about that?

This is KD's track record of being impresisve vs good defenses(and we're just talking scoring mind you, nvm his non-existent playoff creaion)
1.On low usage vs the 2012 heat
2. As the secondary focus of the 16 spurs.

That's it, that's his resume "under pressure."

Harden as THE FOCUS of good playoff defenses while havign a far bigger creative load, in less time:

-> 2020 lakers
-> 2015 warriors
-> 2018 jazz


Durant doesn't create in the playoffs, he can't be trsuted to handle the ball, he doesn't move, he doesn't set screens, he chokes against doubles. All he does is score on single coverage and statpad with weakside blocks and assits off easy open passes after one of his teamamtes already beat the defense for him. He's had a season or two of good man defense and collecting weakside blocks but he'ls slow on switches, gets blown by smalls, and can't fight screens.


And here's the bottom line, when it comes to "impacting winning", there is no measure by which he's been a top 2 player outside of 2014 in either the playoffs or the regular season.

His longetvity is also basically a non-factor comapred to ahrden or curry because of playoff injuries

He's just a less reliable, more one dimensional james harden +marginal value add defensively. He doesn't belong in this conversation.

[DQuinn1575]

Thru post #54:

Dirk Nowitzki - 4 (Cavsfansince84, mailmp, sansterre, Whopper_Sr)
Karl Malone - 2 (Joao Saraiva, trex_8063)
Moses Malone - 2 (Hal14, Odinn21)
George Mikan - 2* (lebron4-13-4*, penbeast0)
Kevin Durant - 1 (Dutchball97)


About 21 hours more for this thread. If you don’t see your handle above, YOU HAVEN’T VOTED IN THIS THREAD.

*lebron3-14-3, you've not provided any arguments; without reasoning, your vote will not be counted at the final tally.

Cavsfansince84, as a reg you’re welcome to join immediately if you like (tentatively counting your vote, though arguably skirting the line of acceptable argumentation, fwiw). Please read OP of this thread, if you intend to continue.

Oops - thought I voted already.

1. Dirk - longevity, top 5 player a long time, gets the alpha edge over some of the others as best player on title team. Not my all-time favorite guy, so I''ll let other take up his case.
2. Mikan - one of top 5 in terms of dominance, I'm taking a 3 times era adjustment to put him in Top 15 range.
3. Karl Malone - longevity, calling him the best guy who didnt get a ring makes sense, at what point can I take someone who didn't check off that box - surprising myself as I have dropped Moses from where I used to have him.

[Joao Saraiva]

Malone has no ring... just imagine his cast stepped up like the Mavs cast did against the Heat big 3 and that MJ had a bad series like LBJ did in 11.

I believe the 11 ring is overrating Dirk.

He didn't even perform better in the 11 finals than Malone did in 98:

Dirk 26 PPG 9.7 RPG 2 APG 0.7 SPG 0.7 BPG 53.7ts% 16.6 GmSC

Malone 25 PPG 10.5 RPG 3.8 APG 1 SPG 1.2 BPG 55.3 ts% 18.5 GmSC

Malone has more playoff great runs than Dirk, and when comparing their seasons I would say it's legit to say Dirk has the top 2 (I don't agree but see the argument) but then Maloen has several seasons better than Dirk's 3rd best.

Here are their playoff chances (based on my regular season Win Shares -> Playoff Odds formula):

Karl Malone: 17.23
Dirk Nowitzki: 16.27
Moses Malone: 15.46
Julius Erving: 14.04
David Robinson: 12.25
Kevin Durant: 9.53
George Mikan: 8.45

I noted in a recent Mailman thread that I've come to think he was potentially robbed of a title in '98 by the officiating and rules of the time....

The scene: Game 6 of the '98 Finals
In the 2nd quarter, with the shotclock running down, Howard Eisley heaves like a 27-30' trey which goes in......but the refs waive it off as after the buzzer. Subsequent replay clearly shows that he EASILY got it off in time (the ball is literally about 8' or so out of his hand when the clock goes to zero); but at that time in the NBA there is no replay amending of calls........so the trey REMAINS WAIVED OFF.

Fast-forward to the 4th quarter, just under 4 minutes remaining, Jazz lead 79-77 (and fwiw, they took that lead on the previous possession via Malone getting the rebound on a Hornacek miss and subsequently hitting an ~10' jumper). Ron Harper makes a desperation jumper as the shotclock goes off, to tie the game 79-79; the refs count the basket. While this call was MUCH closer than the Eisley one [which again, was not remotely close], the replay clearly shows Harper did NOT get the shot off in time. But at that time in the NBA there is no replay amending of calls.......so the basket remains on the board.

These two missed calls amount to a 5-pt swing....in a game that was decided by a single point. And that's before we even get to the potential push call on Jordan on the final play [to be clear: I think a no-call was the right decision, but merely saying that if they HAD called anything on that play--->an offensively foul on Jordan is the ONLY possible call].

Obviously we can't say exactly how things would have played out with these two calls being made correctly; but given the outcome, etc, I think it's highly likely the Jazz would have won it.

This would have tied the series; game 7 was to be played in Salt Lake City, and it was questionable if Pippen would be able to play AT ALL if it did go to seven (he certainly would have been FAR below 100%, at any rate [back injury]).

If I'm hazarding a guess, I think it's ~60+% likely the Jazz come away with the '98 title if the refs simply don't blow two crucial calls (in a game that was otherwise reffed pretty evenly imo).

Yes I remember those 2 shots very well.. but what we gonna do. The Eisley one is definitely a big mistake, without replay I can live with Ron Harper's...

But in case of a doubt they usually called it the Bulls' way. Rodman also did a ton of things that should have not been allowed by the refs in that game and series.

[freethedevil]

1. Dirk, only player left who has something approaching a case kobe, playoff elevator, best career val
2. Mikan, relative to era, domincance for the w
3. Karl, nice career val

[Joao Saraiva]

Because there's zero argument for durant as being more consistent when you consider curry is consistently creatiing 10 chances a game while KD's scoring plummets against good playoff defenses.

Well... I can give you some examples of that not being true. Specially in GSW.

Given he didn' do anything impressive against the jazz or the rockets(he only good defenses) you sure about that?

This is KD's track record of being impresisve vs good defenses(and we're just talking scoring mind you, nvm his non-existent playoff creaion)
1.On low usage vs the 2012 heat
2. As the secondary focus of the 16 spurs.

That's it, that's his resume "under pressure."

Harden as THE FOCUS of good playoff defenses while havign a far bigger creative load, in less time:

-> 2020 lakers
-> 2015 warriors
-> 2018 jazz


Durant doesn't create in the playoffs, he can't be trsuted to handle the ball, he doesn't move, he doesn't set screens, he chokes against doubles. All he does is score on single coverage and statpad with weakside blocks and assits off easy open passes after one of his teamamtes already beat the defense for him. He's had a season or two of good man defense and collecting weakside blocks but he'ls slow on switches, gets blown by smalls, and can't fight screens.


And here's the bottom line, when it comes to "impacting winning", there is no measure by which he's been a top 2 player outside of 2014 in either the playoffs or the regular season.

His longetvity is also basically a non-factor comapred to ahrden or curry because of playoff injuries

He's just a less reliable, more one dimensional james harden +marginal value add defensively. He doesn't belong in this conversation.

With the way you're selling KD I'm actually wondering how the hell GSW were even seen as unbeatable once he joined. Such a bad player.

Man I don't like KD and I don't think I should have to state the obvious but...
vs Spurs 2017(#1 DRTG in the RS)
28 PPG 7.3 RPG 3.8 APG 73.1 ts%

vs Utah 2017 (#4 DRTG)
24.5 PPG 8.8 RPG 4.5 APG 60.8 ts%

vs Spurs 2018 (#3 DRTG)
28.2 PPG 8.6 RPG 5.2 APG 60.6 ts% (Curry missed the series!)

vs Houston 2018 (#6 DRTG) - only time there was pressure on that GSW team
30.4 PPG 5.7 RPG 2.7 APG 59.6ts%

If this is KD having bad series it's gonna be a looooooooong list for most players bad series wise.

[Joao Saraiva]

I also believe Dirk's 11 campaign is turning into some sort of a myth... I mean, had something gone wrong there and he would definitely not be mentioned at the level of Karl Malone.

Karl Malone has really gone underrated with the years. No, he's not at Duncan's level. But he for sure comes in the fight right after for the best PF.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Dirk Nowitzki
2. Karl Malone
3. Dr J

All have elite level intangibles and longevity. Dirk is the most impressive scorer here to me considering his skill level, especially later in his prime. However Malone is a better passer and defender. Dr J also has elite level ABA peak along with NBA superstar years, although I feel the ABA suited his strengths/weaknesses.

I will be fading Durant, I question his basketball IQ and chemistry with teammates. In terms of regular season value he's non top 20 to me although his game scales well to the playoffs. This is a player who barely helped the Warriors win more regular season games in my opinion which says something for a player who's supposed to be in contention for top 15 all time.

[freethedevil]

Well... I can give you some examples of that not being true. Specially in GSW.

Given he didn' do anything impressive against the jazz or the rockets(he only good defenses) you sure about that?

This is KD's track record of being impresisve vs good defenses(and we're just talking scoring mind you, nvm his non-existent playoff creaion)
1.On low usage vs the 2012 heat
2. As the secondary focus of the 16 spurs.

That's it, that's his resume "under pressure."

Harden as THE FOCUS of good playoff defenses while havign a far bigger creative load, in less time:

-> 2020 lakers
-> 2015 warriors
-> 2018 jazz


Durant doesn't create in the playoffs, he can't be trsuted to handle the ball, he doesn't move, he doesn't set screens, he chokes against doubles. All he does is score on single coverage and statpad with weakside blocks and assits off easy open passes after one of his teamamtes already beat the defense for him. He's had a season or two of good man defense and collecting weakside blocks but he'ls slow on switches, gets blown by smalls, and can't fight screens.


And here's the bottom line, when it comes to "impacting winning", there is no measure by which he's been a top 2 player outside of 2014 in either the playoffs or the regular season.

His longetvity is also basically a non-factor comapred to ahrden or curry because of playoff injuries

He's just a less reliable, more one dimensional james harden +marginal value add defensively. He doesn't belong in this conversation.

With the way you're selling KD I'm actually wondering how the hell GSW were even seen as unbeatable once he joined. Such a bad player.

Man I don't like KD and I don't think I should have to state the obvious but...
vs Spurs 2017(#1 DRTG in the RS)
28 PPG 7.3 RPG 3.8 APG 73.1 ts%

Yeah, because the spurs totally didn't lose their defensive anchor

vs Utah 2017 (#4 DRTG)
24.5 PPG 8.8 RPG 4.5 APG 60.8 ts%
24 ppg on 60% TS? Lmao. Antony Davis scored better against the ATG WARRIORS with the **** Pelicans. Harden did better wih westbrook's corpse agaisnt the lakers, Harden did better agaisnt the 15 warriors.. Curry was as effecient on much higher volume vs the raptors. Lebron scored much better against the warriors in 2018 with the incredible remains of kevin love. Kawhi scored mcuh better against both the bucks and the sixers and was actually asked to do things with the ball beyond shooting.

Do I even need to bring up that Gobert was [b]injured?

Durant's series vs the jazz is Pathetic when we compare it to his peers.

[/b]

vs Spurs 2018 (#3 DRTG)
28.2 PPG 8.6 RPG 5.2 APG 60.6 ts% (Curry missed the series!)

vs Houston 2018 (#6 DRTG) - only time there was pressure on that GSW team
30.4 PPG 5.7 RPG 2.7 APG 59.6ts%
Now compare that to kawhi against the much better bucks defense in 2019, curry against the much better raptors defense in 2019, lebron against the much better warriors defense in 17 and 18, davis against the warriors ect.

KD literally does worse at SCORING alone than multiple players of his own era as a SECONDARY focus with ruidiculous spacing, and the best supporting cast ever, tailor made to cover his weaknesses while being asked to do NOTHING in terms of creation


KD was a distant third in attempted passes, touches per game, average time of poss. per touch, ect.


Joel-Embid was asked to create more than durant was.


That durant only played like an atg against garbo defenses like the 17-18 cavs and the 2019 clippers speaks volumes about the fraudlence of his box stat profile.


If this is KD having bad series it's gonna be a looooooooong list for most players bad series wise.



Anthony Davis

[Joao Saraiva]

Given he didn' do anything impressive against the jazz or the rockets(he only good defenses) you sure about that?

This is KD's track record of being impresisve vs good defenses(and we're just talking scoring mind you, nvm his non-existent playoff creaion)
1.On low usage vs the 2012 heat
2. As the secondary focus of the 16 spurs.

That's it, that's his resume "under pressure."

Harden as THE FOCUS of good playoff defenses while havign a far bigger creative load, in less time:

-> 2020 lakers
-> 2015 warriors
-> 2018 jazz


Durant doesn't create in the playoffs, he can't be trsuted to handle the ball, he doesn't move, he doesn't set screens, he chokes against doubles. All he does is score on single coverage and statpad with weakside blocks and assits off easy open passes after one of his teamamtes already beat the defense for him. He's had a season or two of good man defense and collecting weakside blocks but he'ls slow on switches, gets blown by smalls, and can't fight screens.


And here's the bottom line, when it comes to "impacting winning", there is no measure by which he's been a top 2 player outside of 2014 in either the playoffs or the regular season.

His longetvity is also basically a non-factor comapred to ahrden or curry because of playoff injuries

He's just a less reliable, more one dimensional james harden +marginal value add defensively. He doesn't belong in this conversation.

With the way you're selling KD I'm actually wondering how the hell GSW were even seen as unbeatable once he joined. Such a bad player.

Man I don't like KD and I don't think I should have to state the obvious but...
vs Spurs 2017(#1 DRTG in the RS)
28 PPG 7.3 RPG 3.8 APG 73.1 ts%

Yeah, because the spurs totally didn't lose their defensive anchor

vs Utah 2017 (#4 DRTG)
24.5 PPG 8.8 RPG 4.5 APG 60.8 ts%
24 ppg on 60% TS? Lmao. Antony Davis scored better against the ATG WARRIORS with the **** Pelicans. Harden did better wih westbrook's corpse agaisnt the lakers, Harden did better agaisnt the 15 warriors.. Curry was as effecient on much higher volume vs the raptors. Lebron scored much better against the warriors in 2018 with the incredible remains of kevin love. Kawhi scored mcuh better against both the bucks and the sixers and was actually asked to do things with the ball beyond shooting.

Do I even need to bring up that Gobert was [b]injured?

Durant's series vs the jazz is Pathetic when we compare it to his peers.

[/b]

vs Spurs 2018 (#3 DRTG)
28.2 PPG 8.6 RPG 5.2 APG 60.6 ts% (Curry missed the series!)

vs Houston 2018 (#6 DRTG) - only time there was pressure on that GSW team
30.4 PPG 5.7 RPG 2.7 APG 59.6ts%
Now compare that to kawhi against the much better bucks defense in 2019, curry against the much better raptors defense in 2019, lebron against the much better warriors defense in 17 and 18, davis against the warriors ect.

KD literally does worse at SCORING alone than multiple players of his own era as a SECONDARY focus with ruidiculous spacing, and the best supporting cast ever, tailor made to cover his weaknesses while being asked to do NOTHING in terms of creation


KD was a distant third in attempted passes, touches per game, average time of poss. per touch, ect.


Joel-Embid was asked to create more than durant was.


That durant only played like an atg against garbo defenses like the 17-18 cavs and the 2019 clippers speaks volumes about the fraudlence of his box stat profile.


If this is KD having bad series it's gonna be a looooooooong list for most players bad series wise.



Anthony Davis

I like that you say those things about the injuries of other teams... forget to mention Curry was also out for some part of the playoffs, forget to mention when they faced those teams those same guys were out against Curry... Double standard much?

This guy and that guy and that other guy did better... did better at what? Putting volume? Should I blame KD for being over 60ts% (so he belongs in the elite) while scoring a little less volume (little less... I mean, still in the 25 PPG mark at lowest!)?

Should KD absorb the offense instead of playing along with the flow of it?

You say KD had it easy because of Curry. Didn't Curry have it easy because of KD too? That is some sort of myth that has been created! There is a reason why Curry felt difficulties in 15 against Delly, a reason why GSW didn't win in 2016 despite their awesome season, and a reason why they absolutely destroyed the NBA once he joined.

Players get flack for having high USG% while putting volume. KD puts a ton of efficient volume while he doesn't need the ball as much... and people complain too.

KD is a really easy player to fit with any type of superstar. His scoring is definitely elite, he raised his defense to a big plus for a forward, he can rebound and he can definitely be relied in high the post. When GSW was having trouble with their offensive system they usually turned to KD in the post.

[Magic Is Magic]

I didn't see my name counted so here it is again: Voting for the #15 spot:


1. Dirk Nowitzki
2. David Robinson
3. Kevin Durant


It must be noted that Dirk does have his playoff blunder as a favorite (a 1 seed versus an 8 seed loss) but most all all-time greats will have at least one series where they lose as a favorite. What Dirk does have in his resume is everything an all-time great needs to be considered all-time great. He has longevity, he has an MVP, he has a ring, he has a Finals MVP, he also is a great +/- playoff performer among the cream of the crop. Additionally, 30,000 points and 10,000 rebounds with a championship over Wade, Lebron, and Bosh is hard to argue against. Most of the guys someone would argue over Dirk do not have all the accolades that Dirk has: Karl Malone (no ring), George Mikan (no longevity), David Robinson (no Finals MVP), but again, I can admit I could be swayed but I find it hard not to include Dirk in this spot.

I have a hard time ranking Karl Malone high when he had a full career with HOF legend John Stockton and never won a single ring. If you break it down he only ever even made the Finals 2 years in his entire time playing with Stockton (I'm not counting the Lakers blunder as a "Finals appearance"). Maybe I could be swayed, but I have to go with David Robinson here because of his elite ability to play both sides of the ball and him winning 2 rings (one of them as a main piece). The only thing hurting him that Malone definitely has over D-Rob is longevity and longevity is important but D-Rob still played 14 years. David Robinson's skill set is so rare, he has to be one of the very few to win a blocking title and scoring title in a career. Pair that with his DPOY award, an MVP and 2 chips and I think D-Rob wins this spot.

I hate Kevin Durant's move in 2017 but his overall resume is hard to ignore. 4x Scoring Champion, MVP, 3 Finals, 2 Finals MVPs, 11-straight seasons of 25 ppg or more, 10x All Star (Approaching Oscar who had 12), ROY. KD has averaged 25 ppg or higher every single playoff run and has one of the top 5 all time Finals by GameScore. 14th all time in MVP win shares, 10th all time in playoff points. Again, I hate his move in 2017 but the rest is hard to ignore. I don't think any player not already included in the top 14 has that resume to match up with him.

Top 10 all time playoff scoring
11-straight 25 ppg seasons
EVERY playoff run is 25 ppg or higher
4 Scoring Titles
2 Finals MVPs
1 Regular season MVP
No one else is close if you ask me

[freethedevil]

With the way you're selling KD I'm actually wondering how the hell GSW were even seen as unbeatable once he joined. Such a bad player.

Man I don't like KD and I don't think I should have to state the obvious but...
vs Spurs 2017(#1 DRTG in the RS)
28 PPG 7.3 RPG 3.8 APG 73.1 ts%

Yeah, because the spurs totally didn't lose their defensive anchor

vs Utah 2017 (#4 DRTG)
24.5 PPG 8.8 RPG 4.5 APG 60.8 ts%
24 ppg on 60% TS? Lmao. Antony Davis scored better against the ATG WARRIORS with the **** Pelicans. Harden did better wih westbrook's corpse agaisnt the lakers, Harden did better agaisnt the 15 warriors.. Curry was as effecient on much higher volume vs the raptors. Lebron scored much better against the warriors in 2018 with the incredible remains of kevin love. Kawhi scored mcuh better against both the bucks and the sixers and was actually asked to do things with the ball beyond shooting.

Do I even need to bring up that Gobert was [b]injured?

Durant's series vs the jazz is Pathetic when we compare it to his peers.

[/b]

vs Spurs 2018 (#3 DRTG)
28.2 PPG 8.6 RPG 5.2 APG 60.6 ts% (Curry missed the series!)

vs Houston 2018 (#6 DRTG) - only time there was pressure on that GSW team
30.4 PPG 5.7 RPG 2.7 APG 59.6ts%
Now compare that to kawhi against the much better bucks defense in 2019, curry against the much better raptors defense in 2019, lebron against the much better warriors defense in 17 and 18, davis against the warriors ect.

KD literally does worse at SCORING alone than multiple players of his own era as a SECONDARY focus with ruidiculous spacing, and the best supporting cast ever, tailor made to cover his weaknesses while being asked to do NOTHING in terms of creation


KD was a distant third in attempted passes, touches per game, average time of poss. per touch, ect.


Joel-Embid was asked to create more than durant was.


That durant only played like an atg against garbo defenses like the 17-18 cavs and the 2019 clippers speaks volumes about the fraudlence of his box stat profile.


If this is KD having bad series it's gonna be a looooooooong list for most players bad series wise.



Anthony Davis

I like that you say those things about the injuries of other teams... forget to mention Curry was also out for some part of the playoffs, forget to mention when they faced those teams those same guys were out against Curry... Double standard much?
Oh no, he had to play with... checkes notes...

Klay thmpson and draymond green

the horror!!!!
This guy and that guy and that other guy did better... did better at what? Putting volume? Should I blame KD for being over 60ts% (so he belongs in the elite) while scoring a little less volume (little less... I mean, still in the 25 PPG mark at lowest!)?
They all scored --Just as effecinetly-- or --much more effeciiently-- onhigher volume and/or much worse teammates and/or much better opposition and baseng asked to do way more non-scoring things.

I guess you forgot how KD had as many turnovers as assists in his OKC playoffs? That's what happens when KD's asked to play like a mvp in the postseason.
Should KD absorb the offense instead of playing along with the flow of it?
KD has never upped his scoring volume in the playoffs with increased usage. So no, this isn't him playing in the system, this is him being incapable of carrying a team. KD is as close to a system player as a superstar can get.
You say KD had it easy because of Curry. Didn't Curry have it easy because of KD too?
Gee its almost like curry is one of the best creaors in league history and creates more scoring oppurtunities than Lebron James, while kevin durant can't even create on the level of 19 kawhi

And even then again, there was no KD in 2015 or 2019, the first season which had curry carrying a 45 win cast to 67 win basketball and a title and then 2019 where he lit up one of the greastest defense sin history with 4 and a half games of klay, dray, iggy and zero depth

That is some sort of myth that has been created! There is a reason why Curry felt difficulties in 15 against Delly, a reason why GSW didn't win in 2016 despite their awesome season, and a reason why they absolutely destroyed the NBA once he joined.
"Absolutely destroyed" so i guess you forgot about how the warriors "had difficulties" against the rockets in 2019 and 2018 with durant? You know teams that are --at best-- comparable to the 65 win(at full strength) 16 okc team(When westbrook outplayed durant btw) an injured curry was able to top with the warriors?

And its rich you want to bring up the pre-death lineup 'struggling' with delledova but completely ignored how even with curry's mcl sprain(an injury that takes several months to heal and which curry literally needed surgery for next season) blasted the cavs before draymond got suspended, and both iggy and barnes got hurt.

Are you trying to tell me that it was KD's magic that kept the warriors healthy in 2017?


And why are you ignoring 2019 where

-> the warriors wwere 6-4 with and without kd
-> the warriors blew a 2 game and 20 point lead against the rockets in game 5 with kd but then beat the rockets without him
-> the warriors blew a 25 point lead against the raptors in one quarter with kd and then beat the raptors without him

Unless you aggressively cherrypick there is nothing to suggest the kd-warriors were >> the kd-less warriors.
Players get flack for having high USG% while putting volume. KD puts a ton of efficient volume while he doesn't need the ball as much... and people complain too.Again, stop with the false equivalencies. KD has never increased his scoring volume in the playoffs when his usage has gone up. I've very specifcally been talking about effiency AND volime with this comparision.

KD is a really easy player to fit with any type of superstar. His scoring is definitely elite, he raised his defense to a big plus for a forward, he can rebound and he can definitely initiate offense in the post. When GSW was having trouble with their offensive system they usually turned to KD in the post.


his defense is a big plus? wierd how nothign that measures picked up on kd ever being more han a marginal volime add over say james harden. Its almost like statpadding weakside blocks and "locking people" up doesn't actually transalte to game chaning defensive impact.

Why was he average defensiely on okc?


And again, I have no idea why you keep sideseeping that KD is historically terrible on superstar standards when it comes to creating for teamamtes