RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 (Clyde Drexler)

[eminence]

If somebody wanted to talk about Reggie maybe not being able to lead the '19 Raptors to a title I'd be willing to listen (though I think he could), lumping '14 in with that is absurd though.

[euroleague]

I'm biased in this one.

I vote for Drexler over Miller

I think Drexler was consistently great, and a top 10 player in the league for half a decade. At his best, he was top 5. Reggie Miller was good, and had better playoff performances at his best, but the leadership and intangibles Drexler brought are better in my opinion. Reggie Miller took shots on too little volume, while Drexler shot at a much higher volume - even if he was less efficient, his impact was as big.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #62 we are at a stalemate (6-6) between Miller and Drexler. It's been about 24 hours since asking the ghost votes to chime in on their opinion (multiple notifications), but still have not heard from one of them. I'll have to think about further action if this is going to be a consistent issue with people holding the project up.
At any rate, not going to wait longer on this one, so we'll kick this into a sudden death runoff between Miller and Drexler, as per protocol....

Any member of the existing voter panel [including the silent ghost vote] is eligible to chime in and settle this (those 12 of the original voters who've made their choice do not need to vote again).
And remember: it's sudden death. If it gets settled before I turn in for the night, great; otherwise it's whomever gets in first to decide things [even if I don't tally until tomorrow].

Spoiler:

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[Doctor MJ]

The floor raising of Artis gives him a case, but Reggie? He isn't a great floor raiser for sure.

Why do you say that? If you just mean relative to Kawhi, okay, but as a general principle about Reggie, what leads you to conclude Reggie wasn't a good floor raiser?

Just for context here, Miller first got featured in his 3rd year on the Pacers. In that year he scored 24.6 PPG on 64.5% TS and the team led the league in TS%. To me that's excellent floor-raising right there.

Because Miller doesn't generate offense out of nowhere. He needs a team that can find him. His points are almost all assisted. Also he can't be the playmaker of a team. Of course Kawih isn't ideal in that role either, but he's better than Miller. Miller is not a difference maker on defense the way Kawih is.

Of course there will be some raise. But he's not the same floor raiser those two guys are in my opinion.

I believe both Artis and Kawih are better floor raisers than Reggie.

Are you really that impressed by Vern Fleming as a playmaker?

I can tell you're thinking "He needs someone to pass him the ball", but he's in the NBA. You can find Flemings.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm biased in this one.

I vote for Drexler over Miller

I think Drexler was consistently great, and a top 10 player in the league for half a decade. At his best, he was top 5. Reggie Miller was good, and had better playoff performances at his best, but the leadership and intangibles Drexler brought are better in my opinion. Reggie Miller took shots on too little volume, while Drexler shot at a much higher volume - even if he was less efficient, his impact was as big.

Wait, leadership and intangibles Drexler? That is not the reputation of Drexler I'm aware of.

Ramsey seemed to find Drexler lazy and unwilling to listen, and even after some success the locker room was in disarray until they brought in Buck Williams.

Here's an SI article from 1990:

RIP CITY RETURNS... WITH A BANG!
SELFLESS BUCK WILLIAMS HAS ROLLED INTO PORTLAND AND CHANGED THE SELFISH BLAZERS INTO A CONTENDER

That "selfish" label? You better believe Drexler was part of that reputation.

And here's some stuff about Miller's leadership:

A True Leader, Reggie Miller

I'd give Miller the edge on leadership and intangibles personally.

[Dr Positivity]

Drexler - I think he peaked higher than a player who never made more than 3rd team All NBA. On ball creating meant a lot.

[euroleague]

I'm biased in this one.

I vote for Drexler over Miller

I think Drexler was consistently great, and a top 10 player in the league for half a decade. At his best, he was top 5. Reggie Miller was good, and had better playoff performances at his best, but the leadership and intangibles Drexler brought are better in my opinion. Reggie Miller took shots on too little volume, while Drexler shot at a much higher volume - even if he was less efficient, his impact was as big.

Wait, leadership and intangibles Drexler? That is not the reputation of Drexler I'm aware of.

Ramsey seemed to find Drexler lazy and unwilling to listen, and even after some success the locker room was in disarray until they brought in Buck Williams.

Here's an SI article from 1990:

RIP CITY RETURNS... WITH A BANG!
SELFLESS BUCK WILLIAMS HAS ROLLED INTO PORTLAND AND CHANGED THE SELFISH BLAZERS INTO A CONTENDER

That "selfish" label? You better believe Drexler was part of that reputation.

And here's some stuff about Miller's leadership:

A True Leader, Reggie Miller

I'd give Miller the edge on leadership and intangibles personally.

Many superstars are lazy. Shaq, Barkley, etc. However, Drexler bought into the system and led by example.

You can find stuff supporting and criticizing both players, but Drexler was far more in the spotlight than Reggie.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm biased in this one.

I vote for Drexler over Miller

I think Drexler was consistently great, and a top 10 player in the league for half a decade. At his best, he was top 5. Reggie Miller was good, and had better playoff performances at his best, but the leadership and intangibles Drexler brought are better in my opinion. Reggie Miller took shots on too little volume, while Drexler shot at a much higher volume - even if he was less efficient, his impact was as big.

Wait, leadership and intangibles Drexler? That is not the reputation of Drexler I'm aware of.

Ramsey seemed to find Drexler lazy and unwilling to listen, and even after some success the locker room was in disarray until they brought in Buck Williams.

Here's an SI article from 1990:

RIP CITY RETURNS... WITH A BANG!
SELFLESS BUCK WILLIAMS HAS ROLLED INTO PORTLAND AND CHANGED THE SELFISH BLAZERS INTO A CONTENDER

That "selfish" label? You better believe Drexler was part of that reputation.

And here's some stuff about Miller's leadership:

A True Leader, Reggie Miller

I'd give Miller the edge on leadership and intangibles personally.

Many superstars are lazy. Shaq, Barkley, etc. However, Drexler bought into the system and led by example.

You can find stuff supporting and criticizing both players, but Drexler was far more in the spotlight than Reggie.

I mean, I'm not the one who brought up leadership, you did. Now you're telling me it's perfectly fine for leaders to be "lazy". I don't even know what you think leadership is.

[Doctor MJ]

Drexler - I think he peaked higher than a player who never made more than 3rd team All NBA. On ball creating meant a lot.

Appeal to authority much?

[trex_8063]

Bump.

Still in a [not so sudden] death runoff. Would have been avoidable if Joao Saraiva had given his opinion on Miller v Drexler before the deadline; could still potentially conclude things here.
Or someone else....

Spoiler:

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[sansterre]

I think the world of Miller, but I vote for Drexler's overall and consistent excellence over Miller's one skill (insane Top 10 playoff scoring).

[trex_8063]

Calling it for Drexler; he got the first two votes in the sudden death and now has an 8-6 edge on Miller.

[Joao Saraiva]

Why do you say that? If you just mean relative to Kawhi, okay, but as a general principle about Reggie, what leads you to conclude Reggie wasn't a good floor raiser?

Just for context here, Miller first got featured in his 3rd year on the Pacers. In that year he scored 24.6 PPG on 64.5% TS and the team led the league in TS%. To me that's excellent floor-raising right there.

Because Miller doesn't generate offense out of nowhere. He needs a team that can find him. His points are almost all assisted. Also he can't be the playmaker of a team. Of course Kawih isn't ideal in that role either, but he's better than Miller. Miller is not a difference maker on defense the way Kawih is.

Of course there will be some raise. But he's not the same floor raiser those two guys are in my opinion.

I believe both Artis and Kawih are better floor raisers than Reggie.

Are you really that impressed by Vern Fleming as a playmaker?

I can tell you're thinking "He needs someone to pass him the ball", but he's in the NBA. You can find Flemings.

And while someone has to give him the ball, that someone has to create for others too cause Reggie doesn't. Good luck with Flemings.

I'd rather have the ball in the hands of Clyde Drexler or Kawih Leonard.

[Doctor MJ]

Because Miller doesn't generate offense out of nowhere. He needs a team that can find him. His points are almost all assisted. Also he can't be the playmaker of a team. Of course Kawih isn't ideal in that role either, but he's better than Miller. Miller is not a difference maker on defense the way Kawih is.

Of course there will be some raise. But he's not the same floor raiser those two guys are in my opinion.

I believe both Artis and Kawih are better floor raisers than Reggie.

Are you really that impressed by Vern Fleming as a playmaker?

I can tell you're thinking "He needs someone to pass him the ball", but he's in the NBA. You can find Flemings.

And while someone has to give him the ball, that someone has to create for others too cause Reggie doesn't. Good luck with Flemings.

I'd rather have the ball in the hands of Clyde Drexler or Kawih Leonard.

My point is that if all you need is a Vern Fleming to activate killer Reggie Miller, then you shouldn’t have a problem activating killer Reggie Miller and thus it doesn’t make sense to think about Miller as a dependent.

To give an analogy: Say the world’s best golfer who - for some reason - actually needed a caddy to drive him around the course. No one in golf would say “He’s bad at golf because he needs a caddy. The best golfers walk!” Why? Because you can find a caddy!

If the teammate Miller is with is doing something that’s just doing something pretty normal and thus highly replaceable, that’s not him being a dependent, that’s him synergizing with how the game is played.

Additionally, note that you are comparing Kawhi and Drexler to Fleming not Miller. The whole point here is that Miller developed a role that would allow both Fleming-types and Drexler-types to thrive next to him.

To understand Miller’s value you have to compare him against what you’d expect to have in place of him, and the place he occupies is an off-ball role, so you need to be able to compare him specifically against guys who were not showing up on the box score all that dramatically.

Or you need to use stats that aren’t blind to what Miller was doing when he didn’t have the ball in his hands.

[euroleague]

Wait, leadership and intangibles Drexler? That is not the reputation of Drexler I'm aware of.

Ramsey seemed to find Drexler lazy and unwilling to listen, and even after some success the locker room was in disarray until they brought in Buck Williams.

Here's an SI article from 1990:

RIP CITY RETURNS... WITH A BANG!
SELFLESS BUCK WILLIAMS HAS ROLLED INTO PORTLAND AND CHANGED THE SELFISH BLAZERS INTO A CONTENDER

That "selfish" label? You better believe Drexler was part of that reputation.

And here's some stuff about Miller's leadership:

A True Leader, Reggie Miller

I'd give Miller the edge on leadership and intangibles personally.

Many superstars are lazy. Shaq, Barkley, etc. However, Drexler bought into the system and led by example.

You can find stuff supporting and criticizing both players, but Drexler was far more in the spotlight than Reggie.

I mean, I'm not the one who brought up leadership, you did. Now you're telling me it's perfectly fine for leaders to be "lazy". I don't even know what you think leadership is.

I think having respect for the game/rules is a key part of leadership. How about that... if you look at Reggie Miller's actions, not exactly taking the high road