Sansterre's Top 100 Teams, #17-18, 2012 MIA, 1999 SAS

[freethedevil]

I totally disagree that those titles weren't as valuable. Circumstances made them "different" seasons from the usual.....but it's a level playing field: those circumstances were present for all 29-30 teams involved in these shortened seasons.

I'm not disputing that circumstances were the same for all teams in the lockout seasons but I do think it put certain teams at a disadvantage due to the condensed schedule, and with everything coming together so quickly.

In 99, you also had a bunch of cases where guys weren't ready to play because they didn't think the season was going to happen. There were no training camps, guys were going down all over the place, and everything culminated in a bunch of dumb upsets due to best of 5 and seeding that wasn't a true reflection of the teams. 99 was a **** show right from the start. Here's a nice oral history of the craziness if you have time: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/2/19/18228706/lockout-1999-season-san-antonio-spurs-new-york-knicks

2012 was probably a little cleaner as there weren't as many guys caught with their pants down, but it ultimately still favored younger teams imo, or at least made things harder for older teams by comparison.

I don't agree that circumstances were the same for everyone leading into the bubble. Losing home court was obviously a big deal but certain teams seemed to be impacted more than others based on which part of the country was being hit the hardest and how their local government dealt with the initial months of the pandemic.

Heat and Lakers were able to find ways to continue practicing while teams like Bucks and Raptors weren't. The Bucks in particular are a huge what if imo. They were an ATG team that got completely derailed by the pandemic, and my guy Siakam is still messed up from being isolated in his apartment for three straight months. As an aside, it'll be interesting to see the mental health fall out in northern vs. southern communities around the world post pandemic.

But just in a general sense, I think the champions that had to play 82 + playoffs should be rewarded for playing the full season. Simply put, they had to win more games.

Broadly agree on the bubble (which again goes back to how this year will be viewed), but agree with trex it also was fair in that it was agreed on. This year if a player gets COVID during the late season/playoffs could be another one barring vaccinations.

One thing I would pick on is the bolded. If players played poorly b/c they weren't prepared, I'd pin that more on the individuals themselves and not circumstances. They should have at minimum known there was a possibility, being unprepared for games is sort of on them.

Not sure why the bubble would'nt be more impressive All the top regular season teams fell by the wayside and it was objectively harder to win a title if you wer ea god regular season team thanks to no home court.
'
If anything bubble titles should get a boost.

Not to mention the lakers who were on pace for 65 wins tanked the bubble the adjust.

[bondom34]

I get that but the fact it happened to so many guys, and seemingly every NBA player from that time has a story about how they weren't exactly ready to go it makes one wonder about things like the messaging from PA, for example. Like, if virtually everyone messed up isn't it possible that it was a little more complicated than just guys were being unprofessional (my word)?

Possible, but then if almost everyone messed up it goes back to being even just at a lowered level. Guess nobody ever really knows, makes those seasons tougher to judge historically. Really in the end just so there's no asterisk talk (know there wasn't here, just in general) trying to judge teams from year to year is nearly impossible anyway so this is a pretty subjective thing.

But I guess if it was sporadic guys coming in unprepared, I'd say its more on them individually and if its really widespread I'd almost say its even for everyone, just everyone kind of came in rusty.

Even if you take that position - that it was still materially even because guys were widespread out of shape - it still means Spurs were the champs of arguably the crappiest season in NBA history, at least in comparison to seasons right before and after. Miami was champs of the 2nd crappiest season depending on how you view the bubble. I don't believe in asterisks as long as it finished and there was an actual champion, but I do believe in knocking these three titles down a peg in comparison to the others because of how those seasons went down.

I suppose to each his own on that, but think it's difficult to paint in broad strokes for something like this.

If guys were widespread out of shape (not saying they were, but hypothetically) that team was still relative to competition just as good. Just as comparing year to year is difficult that sort of adds a wrench into things. Ultimately don't feel totally comfortable with a blanket value statement in that way.

[bondom34]

I'm not disputing that circumstances were the same for all teams in the lockout seasons but I do think it put certain teams at a disadvantage due to the condensed schedule, and with everything coming together so quickly.

In 99, you also had a bunch of cases where guys weren't ready to play because they didn't think the season was going to happen. There were no training camps, guys were going down all over the place, and everything culminated in a bunch of dumb upsets due to best of 5 and seeding that wasn't a true reflection of the teams. 99 was a **** show right from the start. Here's a nice oral history of the craziness if you have time: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/2/19/18228706/lockout-1999-season-san-antonio-spurs-new-york-knicks

2012 was probably a little cleaner as there weren't as many guys caught with their pants down, but it ultimately still favored younger teams imo, or at least made things harder for older teams by comparison.

I don't agree that circumstances were the same for everyone leading into the bubble. Losing home court was obviously a big deal but certain teams seemed to be impacted more than others based on which part of the country was being hit the hardest and how their local government dealt with the initial months of the pandemic.

Heat and Lakers were able to find ways to continue practicing while teams like Bucks and Raptors weren't. The Bucks in particular are a huge what if imo. They were an ATG team that got completely derailed by the pandemic, and my guy Siakam is still messed up from being isolated in his apartment for three straight months. As an aside, it'll be interesting to see the mental health fall out in northern vs. southern communities around the world post pandemic.

But just in a general sense, I think the champions that had to play 82 + playoffs should be rewarded for playing the full season. Simply put, they had to win more games.

Broadly agree on the bubble (which again goes back to how this year will be viewed), but agree with trex it also was fair in that it was agreed on. This year if a player gets COVID during the late season/playoffs could be another one barring vaccinations.

One thing I would pick on is the bolded. If players played poorly b/c they weren't prepared, I'd pin that more on the individuals themselves and not circumstances. They should have at minimum known there was a possibility, being unprepared for games is sort of on them.

Not sure why the bubble would'nt be more impressive All the top regular season teams fell by the wayside and it was objectively harder to win a title if you wer ea god regular season team thanks to no home court.
'
If anything bubble titles should get a boost.

Not to mention the lakers who were on pace for 65 wins tanked the bubble the adjust.

Wasn't speaking to anything on how impressive it was, just that it could have been uneven going in (I'm not certain on rules for practice but thinking back they may have been disallowed by the NBA?). Just mostly saying it was a weird year with a break in the middle and guys opting in/out.

Not putting any particular value judgement on that.