How good is Giannis offensively?

[jalengreen]

[quote="LukaTheGOAT"][/quote]

according to his site, "EPM at the game level (i.e. for the 5-game moving average trend) only uses a prior (no short-term RAPM calculation)" so i wonder if for a six game sample he is actually calculating RAPM or just entirely basing it on a prior like he does with the five game moving averages.

in any case, i do agree that mitchell is at least at giannis' level offensively.

[AussieBuck]

You know you've made it when you get the totally unhinged kind of anti fans that Jordan, Lebron etc have.

Who is anti-fan in this thread? I only see reasonable questions and rational criticism of Giannis limitations.

Blaming Giannis for Jrue being tired and missing his iso shots is unhinged. The rest of the posts by the same poster are similarly ridiculous. The same poster has previously called Giannis overrated on D because he plays with excellent defenders like Bobby Portis. These are not views based on reality, but stuff like that frequently flies here with usually only Texas Chuck pushing back.

Giannis gets docked style points and doesn't get credit for what he does within the limits of the rosters he's had to work with including having to create his own buckets form outside the three point line due a consistent lack of playable playmaking guards. "Port' him onto a team where he can just run the break, play as roll man and some high and low post and he'd have a much easier time.

[trex_8063]

Past prime Drexler is the only real perimeter talent Hakeem got in his prime. And his stock was so low Portland traded their decade long star for Otis Thorpe and Tracy Murray.........

As mid as Bledsoe was he wouldve been Hakeems best guard pre Drexler. For his holes on offense he was still an elite defensive guard, great slasher and underrated playmaker. He just couldnt hit spot up 3s with which Giannis one dimensional playmaking game made much less talented guards like George Hill a better fit next to him

And Giannis still got to play with Brogdon, Jrue and Khris - Khris a better halfcourt player than even Drexler............Its not all that close ITO perimeter talent played with. No ones buying a washed up Sleepy Floyd, erratic chucking Mad Max or Kenny the Jet Smith as good as those guys

I mean I concede Hakeem and you bought him anyway. In any case Bledsoe was a playoffs basketcase on offense to the point washed George hill was massively better, Brogdon wasn't healthy in the playoffs at any point and Khris isn't a guard at all. Your posts on Giannis are consistently absurd. I would have thought getting a win might have moderated you but here we are. Also not mentioning Cassell shows you up.

You tried to paint Giannis perimeter talent as "similar" to Hakeem when it wasn't at all.

You mentioned "perimeter play". Khris is a perimeter player.... You didn't specify guard play in the originally quoted post

As for not mentioning Sam I specified Hakeems **** perimeter play pre Drexler. Sam was only a factor after Clyde got there and during their historic 95 run Sam was still just a 2nd year spark plug game manager off the bench. He wasn't any better than 19 George Hill were not talking peak 04 Sam who formed a legit duo with Kg

AussieBuck - You and GSP may have history on this [and other] topics, but please stop insinuating personal attacks. You can counter with some objective, data/evidence-based counterpoints; but calling posters you disagree with "unhinged" is not the type of argumentation we want to encourage.

GSP - fwiw, I think it would rankle less if you did offer a little more.....even analysis.
For examples.....
*I think his issue in you bringing up Khris Middleton [a SF] is that you made no mention whatsoever of Robert Horry, who was a "perimeter player" [also being a SF at that time], and who was arguably the 2nd-best player on the '94 Rockets [almost assuredly was in the playoffs], and was the 3rd-best player in the playoffs for the '95 Rockets.

**You bring up nearly all relevant perimeter talent that Giannis had (even including Bledsoe/G.Hill), but fail to mention Cassell. Cassell was plenty relevant in the '94 playoffs [at least when compared to Bledsoe or G.Hill]. He had a 16.3 PER, .111 WS/48, and +1.7 BPM in almost 22 mpg in the playoffs.
He had a notably better all-around year in '95.

***You'd countered that you were referring only to "Hakeem's **** perimeter play pre Drexler". But I don't see you specifying that anywhere [prior to the above quoted portion]. Specifically, you said "Past prime Drexler is the only real perimeter talent Hakeem got in his prime." (certainly '94 is in his prime).


Not saying this is all apples to apples. But certainly it will feel as though there is less motive in your posting on this topic if you extend the same standards to other players that you cite for comparison.

[AussieBuck]

All good mate I'm done here.

[Peregrine01]

Giannis is a bit hard to judge. He can look like Shaq out there against teams ill-equipped to defend him but he doesn't have Shaq's level of dominance against nearly every defense. So when he can't get to the rim or get out in transition, he can be fairly neutralized because he doesn't have a lot else that commands the defense's respect. This makes him less robust than other premier offensive threats. Still, I think his one weapon is so historically great I can't put him much below as a top-5 offensive player especially as the offensive GOATs of the previous era (Steph, Lebron, KD) have aged.

If I were to list it, it might go something like this:

1) Jokic
2) Luka/Steph/Bron/KD/Giannis

Other than Jokic, I just don't see a ton of separation among the rest.

[Top10alltime]

Giannis' offense is one of the biggest weaknesses in NBA history, by a top 75 player all-time . All he can do is run (citing transition), and dunk the ball (citing finishing) . That's not even considering how Giannis falls off a cliff, on the only two things that he can do on the court, offensively, when he faces elite personnel or double bigs, in real competition. In reality, if you watch Giannis with an objective eye, he is a glorified Mitchell Robinson offensively . He is actually a worse playoffs performer offensively than the supposed choker and failure Embiid, despite Embiid facing tougher coverages, having worse teammates, and being injured every year .

Giannis vs good defenses -
2019 Tor: -2.7 opp adj rTS vs -3.3 defense
2020 Mia: -1.2 opp adj rTS vs -1.1 defense
2021 Mia: -7.8 opp adj rTS vs -1.1 defense
2022 Bos: -2.2 opp adj rTS vs -5.1 defense
2023 Mia: -6.9 opp adj rTS vs -1.5 defense

Embiid vs good defenses -
2019 Tor: -1.6 opp adj rTS vs -3.3 defense
2020 Bos: +5.2 opp adj rTS vs -3.6 defense
2022 Mia: -3.0 opp adj rTS vs -2.1 defense
2023 Bos: -1.5 opp adj rTS vs -3.3 defense
2024 NYK: +1.9 opp adj rTS vs -1.9 defense

Playoffs "chokers" like Embiid are better offensively in the playoffs than Giannis, what does that say? Let's look at someone like Karl Malone, who is a playoffs dropper

KM vs good defenses -
1994 Hou: +0.8 opp adj rTS vs -4.9 defense
1995 Hou: +2.3 opp adj rTS vs -0.9 defense
1996 Sas: -2.0 opp adj rTS vs -4.1 defense
1997 Chi: -2.4 opp adj rTS vs -4.3 defense
1998 Chi: +5.3 opp adj rTS vs -5.2 defense

If Embiid who is a shell of himself in the playoffs due to injury, and Karl Malone who is a flat out playoffs choker, fare better than Giannis against good defenses, then how is Giannis offense not one of the biggest weakness in NBA history of a top 75 player, and very bad? It's because his offense is a glorified Mitchell Robinson offensively, and his 2 only aspects offensively gets neutralized against great personnel or double bigs. There are so many players better offensively than Giannis, post 00s alone, listed below (not in any order)

Lebron
Steph
Jokic
CP3
KD
Luka
Kobe
Nash
Shaq
Dirk
Harden
Wade
SGA
Embiid
JKidd
Haliburton
Brunson
KG
AI
Westbrook
TMac
Tatum
Deron
Duncan
KG
Trae
Kawhi
Dame
Morant
KAT
Mitchell
Ray
Manu
Lowry
IT (not Pistons one)
Wall
Beal
Kyrie
Fox
Cade
Garland
Booker

41 players, from post 00 alone, are better than Giannis offensively. That speaks volumes on how much of a weakness his offense is, it is holding him back. But OFC, the media has created this false narrative that overrates Giannis, to make him look 10x the player he really is, and it's brainwashed fans to think he is inside top 50 all-time, it's ridiculous . The only fans that know the truth about Giannis not being top 50 all-time, is ones who watch full games of Giannis with an objective eye .

Anyone who reads this, God bless you outside of this forum, in your real life, and follow Christ. Stay safe, thanks.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

While I think he's not in the highest tier, I have a feeling people are overindexing the last few playoffs when he was not healthy himself or he had a very unhealthy team with him