Who is in your GOAT tier?

[ShaqAttac]

Jordan, LeBron and Kareem.

I go back and forth on putting Russell in there.

isn't MJ's argument just a bad version of Bill's?

[JordansBulls]

The pre russel celtics must have been such a dominant team before and after russel with all that talent then....wait...

They were 2nd in standings before Russell came (2nd best record in league) and then won 2 titles in the next 7 years after Russell.

Tell me how the did in 70 and 71 before adding new talent like freaking hall of famer dave cowens?

Hint, the drop off in the 70 celtics from russel retiring was comparable to the 99 bulls with jordan + pippen + rodman + jackson leaving

How do they do having Russell without the league mvp and roy on the squad? Also consider you only needed to win 2 series those years. You didn't need to win 4 series until 1985.

[falcolombardi]

They were 2nd in standings before Russell came (2nd best record in league) and then won 2 titles in the next 7 years after Russell.

Tell me how the did in 70 and 71 before adding new talent like freaking hall of famer dave cowens?

Hint, the drop off in the 70 celtics from russel retiring was comparable to the 99 bulls with jordan + pippen + rodman + jackson leaving

How do they do having Russell without the league mvp and roy on the squad?

Considering they won 11 rings in 13 years and one of the two losses was cause russel got injured?

Odds are that very well

[JordansBulls]

Tell me how the did in 70 and 71 before adding new talent like freaking hall of famer dave cowens?

Hint, the drop off in the 70 celtics from russel retiring was comparable to the 99 bulls with jordan + pippen + rodman + jackson leaving

How do they do having Russell without the league mvp and roy on the squad?

Considering they won 11 rings in 13 years and one of the two losses was cause russel got injured?

Odds are that very well

Already had the 2nd best record in league before Russell came and they add ROY and Russell. Also when Russell got injured they were down in that series and he played in finale.

[migya]

I get where you're coming from but I also feel like you're reducing the GOAT discussion to just team success and individual longevity/total value added. Jordan's case is pretty simple to me. He had the highest peak/prime (in my eyes and for probably a majority of basketball fans too) and did it for long enough and especially consistently enough for MJ to be viewed as the best player overall.

Not saying I disagree here.

Just wondering why he had the greatest peak/prime ever, in your eyes. Which metrics do you use, for example?

box-score aggreates and bpm are pretty favorable for jordan though Lebron still has a strong postseason advantage there. His slashline also looks quite good.

The problem is
A. those are the least predictive metrics
B. Pretty much everything else suggests jordan isn't the "highest quality of play" or whatever

this includes
-> RAPM
-> On/Off
-> Real impact signals
-> PIPM
-> AUPM

Jordan's case is really the box-score.

Jordan is better almost everywhere. PER, bpm, ws/48, the significant stats he is better. That's including his Wizards years.

It's very significant that Jordan took 2 years of in his prime to play and focus on a different sport, and there was a documentary where the trainers of his baseball team stated that he was spending many hours training which means his mind and body were molding to fit that sport, he then took three years of and cane back near age 40. His metrics are still better than Lebron's in most areas.

[falcolombardi]

How do they do having Russell without the league mvp and roy on the squad?

Considering they won 11 rings in 13 years and one of the two losses was cause russel got injured?

Odds are that very well

Already had the 2nd best record in league before Russell came.

And bulls had 55 wins the year before jordam came back but i dont see you diminishin jordan contribution to their second treepeat

[migya]

How do they do having Russell without the league mvp and roy on the squad?

Considering they won 11 rings in 13 years and one of the two losses was cause russel got injured?

Odds are that very well

Already had the 2nd best record in league before Russell came.

You both make valid claims, that's why I have Russell and Jordan just behind Chamberlain for best ever. Used to be Jordan.

[falcolombardi]

Not saying I disagree here.

Just wondering why he had the greatest peak/prime ever, in your eyes. Which metrics do you use, for example?

box-score aggreates and bpm are pretty favorable for jordan though Lebron still has a strong postseason advantage there. His slashline also looks quite good.

The problem is
A. those are the least predictive metrics
B. Pretty much everything else suggests jordan isn't the "highest quality of play" or whatever

this includes
-> RAPM
-> On/Off
-> Real impact signals
-> PIPM
-> AUPM

Jordan's case is really the box-score.

Jordan is better almost everywhere. PER, bpm, ws/48, the significant stats he is better. That's including his Wizards years.

It's very significant that Jordan took 2 years of in his prime to play and focus on a different sport, and there was a documentary where the trainers of his baseball team stated that he was spending many hours training which means his mind and body were molding to fit that sport, he then took three years of and cane back near age 40. His metrics are still better than Lebron's in most areas.

>Significant stats

>per, win shares

Pick one or you have to crown jokic, giannis amd luka as 3-way goat

[JordansBulls]

Considering they won 11 rings in 13 years and one of the two losses was cause russel got injured?

Odds are that very well

Already had the 2nd best record in league before Russell came.

And bulls had 55 wins the year before jordam came back but i dont see you diminishin jordan contribution to their second treepeat

Jordan built that team and turned them into a dynasty. Russell joined a team that was good before he ever came. Also Pippen and Grant were role players before playing with Jordan.

[falcolombardi]

[quote=]["JordansBulls"][/quote]

[quote="JordansBulls"][quote="JordansBulls"]

A 35 years old russel made the celtics champions in 69 over the big 3 of wilt/west/baylor

Bob cousy was retired for 7 years by then.....

[prolific passer]

The pre russel celtics must have been such a dominant team before and after russel with all that talent then....wait...

They were 2nd in standings before Russell came (2nd best record in league) and then won 2 titles in the next 7 years after Russell.

Tell me how the did in 70 and 71 before adding new talent like freaking hall of famer dave cowens?

Hint, the drop off in the 70 celtics from russel retiring was comparable to the 99 bulls with jordan + pippen + rodman + jackson leaving

People thought 6'9" Dave Cowens couldn't play center in the NBA back in the 70s because they felt he was too short. But 6'7" Unseld had no complaints.

[ShaqAttac]

A 35 years old russel made the celtics champions in 69 over the big 3 of wilt/west/baylor

Bob cousy was retired for 7 years by then.....

wasn't russells team super loaded?

[falcolombardi]

A 35 years old russel made the celtics champions in 69 over the big 3 of wilt/west/baylor

Bob cousy was retired for 7 years by then.....

wasn't russells team super loaded?

Not really, its best teammate was pre prime havlicek and no one else was close to a star

Edit and the team wom 30 games next year without russel so yeah, not that good lol. For reference the 94 bulls fampusly won 55 games without jordan then alsoost grant too and were still in a +40 wins pace

70'sfan may be the right man to answer this tho

[prolific passer]

Already had the 2nd best record in league before Russell came.

And bulls had 55 wins the year before jordam came back but i dont see you diminishin jordan contribution to their second treepeat

Jordan built that team and turned them into a dynasty. Russell joined a team that was good before he ever came. Also Pippen and Grant were role players before playing with Jordan.

Thought it was Krause whom built the bulls?

[OhayoKD]

box-score aggreates and bpm are pretty favorable for jordan though Lebron still has a strong postseason advantage there. His slashline also looks quite good.

The problem is
A. those are the least predictive metrics
B. Pretty much everything else suggests jordan isn't the "highest quality of play" or whatever

this includes
-> RAPM
-> On/Off
-> Real impact signals
-> PIPM
-> AUPM

Jordan's case is really the box-score.

Jordan is better almost everywhere. PER, bpm, ws/48, the significant stats he is better. That's including his Wizards years.

It's very significant that Jordan took 2 years of in his prime to play and focus on a different sport, and there was a documentary where the trainers of his baseball team stated that he was spending many hours training which means his mind and body were molding to fit that sport, he then took three years of and cane back near age 40. His metrics are still better than Lebron's in most areas.

>Significant stats

>per, win shares

Pick one or you have to crown jokic, giannis amd luka as 3-way goat

Lebron's best years also score better in the postseason in those "signficant stats". So much so that you can take out the best year on record, by a landslide, by those stats and lebron comes out ahead.

[falcolombardi]

Jordan is better almost everywhere. PER, bpm, ws/48, the significant stats he is better. That's including his Wizards years.

It's very significant that Jordan took 2 years of in his prime to play and focus on a different sport, and there was a documentary where the trainers of his baseball team stated that he was spending many hours training which means his mind and body were molding to fit that sport, he then took three years of and cane back near age 40. His metrics are still better than Lebron's in most areas.

>Significant stats

>per, win shares

Pick one or you have to crown jokic, giannis amd luka as 3-way goat

Lebron's best years also score better in the postseason in those "signficant stats". So much so that you can take out the best year on record, by a landslide, by those stats and lebron comes out ahead.

Yeap lebron beats jordan in both plus-minus metrics and boxscore aggregates

[JordansBulls]

[quote=]["JordansBulls"]

A 35 years old russel made the celtics champions in 69 over the big 3 of wilt/west/baylor

Bob cousy was retired for 7 years by then.....

And his teammate had double the win shares as him. And another guy won finals mvp.

[migya]

box-score aggreates and bpm are pretty favorable for jordan though Lebron still has a strong postseason advantage there. His slashline also looks quite good.

The problem is
A. those are the least predictive metrics
B. Pretty much everything else suggests jordan isn't the "highest quality of play" or whatever

this includes
-> RAPM
-> On/Off
-> Real impact signals
-> PIPM
-> AUPM

Jordan's case is really the box-score.

Jordan is better almost everywhere. PER, bpm, ws/48, the significant stats he is better. That's including his Wizards years.

It's very significant that Jordan took 2 years of in his prime to play and focus on a different sport, and there was a documentary where the trainers of his baseball team stated that he was spending many hours training which means his mind and body were molding to fit that sport, he then took three years of and cane back near age 40. His metrics are still better than Lebron's in most areas.

>Significant stats

>per, win shares

Pick one or you have to crown jokic, giannis amd luka as 3-way goat

Most significant is the state of this era basketball, won't say more about it than that. Give them twelve years minimum to see how they'd metrics hold up.

[OhayoKD]

Considering they won 11 rings in 13 years and one of the two losses was cause russel got injured?

Odds are that very well

Already had the 2nd best record in league before Russell came.

You both make valid claims, that's why I have Russell and Jordan just behind Chamberlain for best ever. Used to be Jordan.

Well the celtics were at their strongest when they had just drafted russell and still weren't better than the 94 bulls.

More pertinent is the factor of time. Russell's cast consistently got worse. So when he won title 11 he was winning with way less help. The celtics were a 35 win the next season despite their second best player upping his volume and effiency and the offense improving by 2 points. Jordan to my knowledge has never won a playoff series with similar help

[JordansBulls]

>Significant stats

>per, win shares

Pick one or you have to crown jokic, giannis amd luka as 3-way goat

Lebron's best years also score better in the postseason in those "signficant stats". So much so that you can take out the best year on record, by a landslide, by those stats and lebron comes out ahead.

Yeap lebron beats jordan in both plus-minus metrics and boxscore aggregates

Not really.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_career_p.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_career.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html

And this considering the rule changes that made it easier to score since 2005.