Your unpopular takes? (PC Board Edition)

[OhayoKD]

None of that is an actual comparative argument or even based on anything you are bothering to quantify (apart from defensive rebounding). Right away I know his DPIPM, DLEBRON, and D-DPM has always hovered around neutral to mild positive outside of 2015, and that he gets worse in the postseason. His D-RAPM is better — but he tends to play with good defensive support and have rough backups — yet again without a comparative basis (or one which acknowledges that Marcus Smart having a lower DRAPM does not mean Curry is a better defender than Smart…) this is contributing nothing to the conversation.

How many guards generally grade out as more than "mild positive" in these metrics? 2022 LEBRON data was what showed up when I googled the metric and all but 10 guards seem to be <+1 defensive impact. For whatever reason thybuille is listed as an sg(and a stretch big simultaneously), so really 9.

As for the granular stuff. Iirc ben said he had low-error rates somewhere. The man defender thing is here:
He actually says "every position below it's average against point guards" which I guess is more impressive?(Though that's might just be Curry funneling guys into bigger guys)

Also collects his fair share of steals which is probably a positive if he's not giving up much to get them.

Why do you insist on doubling down even as you continue to have nothing real to offer.

Matisse is a shooting guard. Both his all-defensive selections have been at shooting guard. Mikal Bridges was an all-defensive shooting guard last year. Jimmy Butler was an all-defensive shooting guard in 2021. This is his competition. If you do not know the definitions of these terms, check.

LEBRON is freely accessible on the bball-index page. We can even ignore shooting guards and pretend that point guards are guaranteed a spot on the all-defensive teams, just for the sake of argument. Setting a minutes cutoff at 1600, Curry was 9th among 31 qualified point guards in 2022, at 0.4. 15th out of 26 in 2021 (-0.6). 13th out of 35 in 2019 (0.1). 27th of 35 in 2018 (-0.7). 6th out of 35 in 2017 (0.4). 15th out of 39 in 2016 (0). The aforementioned outlier 3rd in 2015 among qualified point guards (1). 10th out of 39 in 2014 (0.7). 11th out of 33 in 2013 (-0.1).

Again, if you do not know something, you are always free to stay quiet rather than speculate emptily and randomly.

Harsh, but fair I guess.

I see you've found an upvote bro to replace me

[penbeast0]

Another hot takes galore:

1. Sidney Moncrief isn't a candidate for the best SG defender ever.
2. Shaq wasn't elite defender in 2000.
3. Jerry West with better durability would be a top 10 player ever and he's close to Jordan peak-wise.
4. Bill Russell would be a superstar today.
5. Offensive rebounding is still extremely valuable today.
6. Moses Malone was a better offensive player than Hakeem.
7. Defense still wins titles.

I agree with 5 of those, 1 conditionally. The conditional one is offensive rebounding. One great offensive rebounder on a team is still extremely valuable but there are rapid diminishing returns when you crash the boards with the same guys multiple times. It is better to have wings and points who rebound well when the go to the hoop than to have a Dennis Rodman/Moses Malone type interior pairing because of the problems with getting back defensively even though the Worm/Moses duo would be unparalleled in league history.

I saw Moncrief play amazing defense in his short prime so I'm on board with him as long as you don't count longevity.

And, I don't think Moses was better offensively than Hakeem over his career; peak probably, he was just more offensively dominant in Houston but Hakeem improved his passing while Moses was always bad plus Hakeem's playoff numbers put him in the competition where the passing can make the difference.

[The-Power]

I literally don't remember seeing Harden, Durant, or Curry ever grab an offensive rebound. I'm sure if I hop on bball-ref I'll see OREB with a number greater than 0, and if somebody ran in this thread to correct me, I'd believe them. I'm simply reporting that I don't recall any of them grabbing an offensive rebound. I recognize that this is partially a subjective style preference.

Watch on YouTube

Certified 3-level scorer.

[70sFan]

Another hot takes galore:

1. Sidney Moncrief isn't a candidate for the best SG defender ever.
2. Shaq wasn't elite defender in 2000.
3. Jerry West with better durability would be a top 10 player ever and he's close to Jordan peak-wise.
4. Bill Russell would be a superstar today.
5. Offensive rebounding is still extremely valuable today.
6. Moses Malone was a better offensive player than Hakeem.
7. Defense still wins titles.

I agree with 5 of those, 1 conditionally. The conditional one is offensive rebounding. One great offensive rebounder on a team is still extremely valuable but there are rapid diminishing returns when you crash the boards with the same guys multiple times. It is better to have wings and points who rebound well when the go to the hoop than to have a Dennis Rodman/Moses Malone type interior pairing because of the problems with getting back defensively even though the Worm/Moses duo would be unparalleled in league history.

I saw Moncrief play amazing defense in his short prime so I'm on board with him as long as you don't count longevity.

And, I don't think Moses was better offensively than Hakeem over his career; peak probably, he was just more offensively dominant in Houston but Hakeem improved his passing while Moses was always bad plus Hakeem's playoff numbers put him in the competition where the passing can make the difference.

I guess I should point out that I said about offensive rebounding in individual point of view. I don't think whole team crashing the glass like crazy is a good idea. So I guess we agree on that part

About Moses vs Hakeem - Malone had much more value off-ball to me. Even though neither was a good passer (and Moses was worse), I think Moses impact was more portable across various systems.

I also don't think Moses in Hakeem place would look much worse as a passer to be honest. Moses never played with a great spacing in standards of Rudy T team.

[1993Playoffs]

Let me join in on these hot takes


KD peaked as a scorer in 2013

Shaq was a top 3-5 player his rookie year.

Lebron at 22-23 years old (2009) was already better than MJ ever was.

Giannis, and Curry can be argued over Shaq…

CP3 may be the most talented player in NBA history

MJ in 1991 was already in athletic decline

David Robinson is a better player than Hakeem

The 90s were horrible to watch.

[yoyoboy]

Darius Garland is the best player on the Cavs and should be top ~8 in the MVP race.

I don’t know if there are more than 5 players I would take in the postseason ahead of Draymond Green throughout his prime.

I’m a lot more skeptical of plus-minus data these days than most when players haven’t actually missed significant time during the season. I think especially with more heliocentric offensive players, it can be a little inaccurate pegging real impact. Just because a supporting cast can survive or even thrive against a 10 minute stretch against largely a bench unit from an opposing team doesn’t mean they’d fare well if that star wasn’t there at all. This applies to Harden imo for example, who never really looked that great in APM variants.

Wilt isn’t a top 10 player of all time.

Kerr is by far the best coach in the league post-Pop.

Bill Russell was the best defender relative to era of all time, which is what truly matters at the end of the day, but I think people go overboard acting as if you could drop him in today’s game as he was (without going through the developmental advantages of today) and he would still be the best defender in the game. He revolutionized defense and paved the way for today’s defenders, so I don’t even want to knock him for that because I think talking about how a guy would do in another era is dumb anyways.

Player empowerment has gone too far and reached the point of player entitlement.

NBA offense is indeed overpowered and making the game less fun to watch. Biggest issues imo are not cracking down on moving screens hard enough (or not allowing players to be extremely physical fighting over screens) and allowing offensive players to basically run into guys, creating all the contact, and be awarded free throws.

Lillard has been the second best offensive player in the league this year and I really don’t see how Doncic can be ranked meaningfully higher this season for MVP or this board’s POY *up until this point*. Of course for the latter, playoffs could prove to make a big difference.

I’m very high on Al Horford. I think he’s been the most valuable player on a lot of good teams and even this year at almost 37 years old I would say he’s Boston’s 2nd most important player over Jaylen Brown.

[capfan33]

Another hot takes galore:

1. Sidney Moncrief isn't a candidate for the best SG defender ever.
2. Shaq wasn't elite defender in 2000.
3. Jerry West with better durability would be a top 10 player ever and he's close to Jordan peak-wise.
4. Bill Russell would be a superstar today.
5. Offensive rebounding is still extremely valuable today.
6. Moses Malone was a better offensive player than Hakeem.
7. Defense still wins titles.

For number 3, how close do you think his peak is, if you had to put it into CORP, I'm curious.

For number 4, is this really a hot take? I'm pretty low on Russell's era translation and I still think he would be a solid MVP-level player even today, albeit not that close to the ATG-level peak he had in the 60s.

[Jaivl]

KG is the GOAT basketball talent (not neccesarily actualized potential)
Terry Porter > Chauncey Billups
2009 LeBron is not close to his peak
Duncan does not have a GOAT argument

[PaulieWal]

I fail to worship LeBron and put LeBron above Jordan. LeBron Stans hate that.

Warned for baiting and derailing

[Matt15]

1.Kobe was the best player in the NBA from 2006-’08
2.David Robinson was as good as Duncan/Hakeem
3.Duncan is not a GOAT candidate
4.KG is not a Top 10 candidate
5.Lebron is overrated as a passer

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I fail to worship LeBron and put LeBron above Jordan. LeBron Stans hate that.

Warned for baiting and derailing

See I told you all that I had an unpopular opinion. Don’t oppose praise of LeBron as being being more praise than LeBron deserves. LeBron deserves a lot of praise but his fans take it to far.

When LeBron fans start exaggerated criticisms of LeBron’s teammates to promote LeBron as the GOAT you know something a little strange is going on with the hard core LeBron fans.

[eminence]

Aww man, none of my takes got me a warning

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I literally don't remember seeing Harden, Durant, or Curry ever grab an offensive rebound. I'm sure if I hop on bball-ref I'll see OREB with a number greater than 0, and if somebody ran in this thread to correct me, I'd believe them. I'm simply reporting that I don't recall any of them grabbing an offensive rebound. I recognize that this is partially a subjective style preference.

Watch on YouTube

Certified 3-level scorer.

Great video Power.

Curry rebounds so much for a little man. Curry’s prolific rebounding is sort of amazing because he is rebounding with genius and brain speed rather than with foot speed or size. But yes Curry is mostly rebounding long defensive rebounds but he does get his share of offensive rebounds.

Even with the long defensive rebounds you have to wonder why he gets so many more of those rebounds than other guards do.His brain is amazing.

In the video how did Curry know he had an opportunity to steal a rebound that belonged to Dwight Howard?

Good job finding that video.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Unpopular opinions:

There is a significant difference between the top 5 peaks ever and the top 10 peaks ever. There is a significant difference between top 10 peaks ever and top 15 peaks ever. Similar thinking can often be applied to careers. I don't think players are often as close together as they are said to be in these ranges.

Nikola Jokic/Luka Doncic are the best scorers in the world. Depending on the style and volume/efficiency you want, leads you to picking one over the other. The playoffs over the last 3 PS proves this.

On the former, whom are some players in the lower end of each grouping (eg. 4-5th, 9-10th, 14-15th) you find this opinion consistent with?

One way to look at this [through the opinion of RealGM] is to look at voting in project(s).

Here is a quick outline based on how the votes were distributed in the previous Top 100 Project.

Tier 1: LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Tier 2: Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain
Tier 3: Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, Larry Bird, Kevin Garnett
Tier 4: Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Dirk Nowitzki
Tier 5: Karl Malone, David Robinson, Julius Erving, George Mikan, Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Steph Curry, Bob Pettit, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Dwyane Wade
Tier 6: #29 - X

Realgm Opinion is out of step with other sources of GOAT-list opinion on Duncan and KG being as high as Realgm ranks them. The similarity between Duncan and KG the guys where realgm diverges from consensus is interesting.

Suppose I had a team with Peak Motumbo and Peak Mark Eaton making no need for my power forward to play center but leaving a need for offense then do I want Duncan or Bird as my power forward?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Another hot takes galore:

1. Sidney Moncrief isn't a candidate for the best SG defender ever.
2. Shaq wasn't elite defender in 2000.
3. Jerry West with better durability would be a top 10 player ever and he's close to Jordan peak-wise.
4. Bill Russell would be a superstar today.
5. Offensive rebounding is still extremely valuable today.
6. Moses Malone was a better offensive player than Hakeem.
7. Defense still wins titles.

I agree with 5 of those, 1 conditionally. The conditional one is offensive rebounding. One great offensive rebounder on a team is still extremely valuable but there are rapid diminishing returns when you crash the boards with the same guys multiple times. It is better to have wings and points who rebound well when the go to the hoop than to have a Dennis Rodman/Moses Malone type interior pairing because of the problems with getting back defensively even though the Worm/Moses duo would be unparalleled in league history.

I saw Moncrief play amazing defense in his short prime so I'm on board with him as long as you don't count longevity.

And, I don't think Moses was better offensively than Hakeem over his career; peak probably, he was just more offensively dominant in Houston but Hakeem improved his passing while Moses was always bad plus Hakeem's playoff numbers put him in the competition where the passing can make the difference.

For Shaq’s defense what is the cut off line between elite defender and good defender.
I don’t think Shaq was a top 3 defensive center in 2000 but top 8 might still be considered elite by some.

There is less of an attempt to offensive rebound now than in the early 1980s. 1984 Celtics beat the 1984 Lakers with offensive rebounding. I think the 1984 Celtics could win Championships today with offensive rebounding if I upgrade their 3 point shooting.
Lets replace Gerald Henderson with a best of peak Curry best of Henderson player (a faster Curry). Replace Wedman wIth best of Peak Klay Thompson best of Wedman. Replace Dennis Johnson with best Of Damion Lee bst of Johnson. And replace Bird with with best of Draymond best of Bird because Draymond has synchronicity as a passer with Curry and Klay. The resulting team would beat any team ever and do it in part with offensive rebounding. The team may have to use rookie Gregg Kite hacking Shaq to beat the 2000 Lakers because Parish might get into foul trouble against peak Shaq and although McHale’s crazy long arms would bother Shaq McHale was a bit light to defend Shaq.

I think current teams are a bit wrong to neglect offensive rebounding. I think offensive rebounding can still win games if the teams with good offensive rebounders would try harder to hurt their opponants with offensive rebounding.

I don’t think Bill Russell would be a superstar today unless we are calling peak Rudy Gobert a superstar. Gobert was bigger but Russell was more mobile.

The list is overrating West some in my opinion. West dominated his era but I think time traveling will not be good for West.

[PaulieWal]

I fail to worship LeBron and put LeBron above Jordan. LeBron Stans hate that.

Warned for baiting and derailing

See I told you all that I had an unpopular opinion. Don’t oppose praise of LeBron as being being more praise than LeBron deserves. LeBron deserves a lot of praise but his fans take it to far.

When LeBron fans start exaggerated criticisms of LeBron’s teammates to promote LeBron as the GOAT you know something a little strange is going on with the hard core LeBron fans.

"I think MJ is better than LeBron and don't rate him as highly as some of the posters here" vs. what you posted is not the way to go. Trolling and then trying to play victim is not a good look.

[penbeast0]

For Shaq’s defense what is the cut off line between elite defender and good defender.
I don’t think Shaq was a top 3 defensive center in 2000 but top 8 might still be considered elite by some.

There is less of an attempt to offensive rebound now than in the early 1980s. 1984 Celtics beat the 1984 Lakers with offensive rebounding. I think the 1984 Celtics could win Championships today with offensive rebounding if I upgrade their 3 point shooting.
Lets replace Gerald Henderson with a best of peak Curry best of Henderson player (a faster Curry). Replace Wedman wIth best of Peak Klay Thompson best of Wedman. Replace Dennis Johnson with best Of Damion Lee bst of Johnson. And replace Bird with with best of Draymond best of Bird because Draymond has synchronicity as a passer with Curry and Klay. The resulting team would beat any team ever and do it in part with offensive rebounding. The team may have to use rookie Gregg Kite hacking Shaq to beat the 2000 Lakers because Parish might get into foul trouble against peak Shaq and although McHale’s crazy long arms would bother Shaq McHale was a bit light to defend Shaq.

I think current teams are a bit wrong to neglect offensive rebounding. I think offensive rebounding can still win games if the teams with good offensive rebounders would try harder to hurt their opponants with offensive rebounding.

I don’t think Bill Russell would be a superstar today unless we are calling peak Rudy Gobert a superstar. Gobert was bigger but Russell was more mobile.

The list is overrating West some in my opinion. West dominated his era but I think time traveling will not be good for West.

I don't really think it matters what Russell or West would do put into a time machine and sent out to play a different game with 1960s training and coaching. That's like asking what Curry would do if you made him take all his shots with his off hand.

The question is whether a player that was to defense (and with equally mediocre to weak offense) as Russell would be capable of today. You are talking about a guy that was as quick in his day as Draymond is in this game, combined with Gobert level height and shot blocking, and one of the top minds in the history of the game. You can't hunt him defensively because of his speed and ability to read offenses. On the other hand, you have a poor offensive player who has little to no handles though decent passing, very limited range, not a good finisher (outside of his first few years), and miserable free throw shooting. So you can certainly try to make the case that while his defensive would be superb, his offensive limitations would mean you are playing 4 on 5 at the other end and that would hurt your team.

As for West, he was the arguably the best outside shooting guard in the league and one of the best slashers as well. He also drew fouls like no one else. Offensively, he's prime Harden. His handles and midrange weren't up to Oscar's who was the best in the league at both, but his defense was good both in terms of man, and in being very active in the passing lanes. So now he's prime Harden with great defense and leadership (ie. a threat to lead the league in assists as he did when he got older but not a Chris Paul/Oscar level playmaker) . . . but with lots of injuries. West got hurt more than his peers, maybe because of his slashing and drawing contact. So that's the main weakness.

To me, that's how you have to compare the elites. You can only play the game as it existed in your own era; you look at how they performed in their era and try to extrapolate that level of dominance to a modern era if you are going to compare to today's stars. Not try to put them out there in canvas sneakers and dribbling on top of the ball only and say, see, they just aren't up to today's players.

[prolific passer]

Parish was the best center on the bulls in 96-97 despite his age.
Mutombo could have been a 16 12 with great defense guy if given the opportunity.
St. Louis Hawks could have beaten the Celtics in the 59 finals if they met up and in 61 if they gotten some rest.
Atlanta Hawks would have won the title of they kept Nique and traded for Parish instead as a backup big.
Bulls could have beaten the heat in 2011 if they set screens and picks for Rose when Lebron was on him.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Warned for baiting and derailing

See I told you all that I had an unpopular opinion. Don’t oppose praise of LeBron as being being more praise than LeBron deserves. LeBron deserves a lot of praise but his fans take it to far.

When LeBron fans start exaggerated criticisms of LeBron’s teammates to promote LeBron as the GOAT you know something a little strange is going on with the hard core LeBron fans.

"I think MJ is better than LeBron and don't rate him as highly as some of the posters here" vs. what you posted is not the way to go. Trolling and then trying to play victim is not a good look.

Unpopular takes was the topic.
Maybe I was a bit trollish because of the use of the word “worship”. Sorry.
But I was on topic.

Back when I arrived at Realgm and the biggest most dominant topic was LeBron vs Kobe I sided with the LeBron fans because they were right about LeBron being better than Kobe. The Kobe fans were almost as bad as the LeBon fans became. Realgm is so dominated by LeBron fans. When you start inaccurately trashing LeBron’s teammates to elevate LeBron higher you have gone too far and maybe even deserve to be trolled.

LeBron has been plenty good and does not need to be overrated. He is the 2nd best non-center ever. Centers are lmost playing a different game. LeBron is only a little worse than Jordan. If am going to put a center above LeBron than I am putting that center above Jordan as well because LeBron and Jordan are that close to each other. I just have a problem comparing the centers to LeBron and Jorda. If I put Jordan 1st as I usually do I am putting LeBron 2nd but half of the LeBron hard core fans don’t seem to be able to handle LeBron being 2nd so they start trashing LeBron’s teammates and elevating Jordan’s teammates and accusing Jordan fans of being biassed.

I predate Jordan and was never putting Jordan on a pedestal. I was not one of the Jordan idolizing kids and had no resistance to LeBron being better than Jordan if LeBron was better than Jordan. I think the Jordan idolizers are closer to the truth than the LeBron idolizers.But idolizers can’t be objective and it is not trolling to admit that idolizing is something that warps the objectivity of sports fans. We are human. I have to watch my idolization and perhaps lack of objectivity about Phil Esposito and Bobby Orr because they were my childhood sports heroes. But I never had an urge to trash Orr’s teammates to support Orr’s case for being better than Gretzky.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

For Shaq’s defense what is the cut off line between elite defender and good defender.
I don’t think Shaq was a top 3 defensive center in 2000 but top 8 might still be considered elite by some.

There is less of an attempt to offensive rebound now than in the early 1980s. 1984 Celtics beat the 1984 Lakers with offensive rebounding. I think the 1984 Celtics could win Championships today with offensive rebounding if I upgrade their 3 point shooting.
Lets replace Gerald Henderson with a best of peak Curry best of Henderson player (a faster Curry). Replace Wedman wIth best of Peak Klay Thompson best of Wedman. Replace Dennis Johnson with best Of Damion Lee bst of Johnson. And replace Bird with with best of Draymond best of Bird because Draymond has synchronicity as a passer with Curry and Klay. The resulting team would beat any team ever and do it in part with offensive rebounding. The team may have to use rookie Gregg Kite hacking Shaq to beat the 2000 Lakers because Parish might get into foul trouble against peak Shaq and although McHale’s crazy long arms would bother Shaq McHale was a bit light to defend Shaq.

I think current teams are a bit wrong to neglect offensive rebounding. I think offensive rebounding can still win games if the teams with good offensive rebounders would try harder to hurt their opponants with offensive rebounding.

I don’t think Bill Russell would be a superstar today unless we are calling peak Rudy Gobert a superstar. Gobert was bigger but Russell was more mobile.

The list is overrating West some in my opinion. West dominated his era but I think time traveling will not be good for West.

I don't really think it matters what Russell or West would do put into a time machine and sent out to play a different game with 1960s training and coaching. That's like asking what Curry would do if you made him take all his shots with his off hand.

The question is whether a player that was to defense (and with equally mediocre to weak offense) as Russell would be capable of today. You are talking about a guy that was as quick in his day as Draymond is in this game, combined with Gobert level height and shot blocking, and one of the top minds in the history of the game. You can't hunt him defensively because of his speed and ability to read offenses. On the other hand, you have a poor offensive player who has little to no handles though decent passing, very limited range, not a good finisher (outside of his first few years), and miserable free throw shooting. So you can certainly try to make the case that while his defensive would be superb, his offensive limitations would mean you are playing 4 on 5 at the other end and that would hurt your team.

As for West, he was the arguably the best outside shooting guard in the league and one of the best slashers as well. He also drew fouls like no one else. Offensively, he's prime Harden. His handles and midrange weren't up to Oscar's who was the best in the league at both, but his defense was good both in terms of man, and in being very active in the passing lanes. So now he's prime Harden with great defense and leadership (ie. a threat to lead the league in assists as he did when he got older but not a Chris Paul/Oscar level playmaker) . . . but with lots of injuries. West got hurt more than his peers, maybe because of his slashing and drawing contact. So that's the main weakness.

To me, that's how you have to compare the elites. You can only play the game as it existed in your own era; you look at how they performed in their era and try to extrapolate that level of dominance to a modern era if you are going to compare to today's stars. Not try to put them out there in canvas sneakers and dribbling on top of the ball only and say, see, they just aren't up to today's players.

But then the question how good would Russell or West be today should never be asked because question requires projected time travel results.

The question “would Bill Russell be a superstar today” absolutely requires time traveling projection. How great Russell was in his own era does not answer how great Russell would be in the current Era. For a while I thought Marcus Camby might be the best time traveling comparison for Russell but fans from this era probably never heard of Marcus Camby and offenses were still forcing the ball inside when Camby played. Camby is not part of the current era.

If we are talking about the greatest mile runners who ran with inferior training and inferior running shoes do we still consider them all time greats when hundreds of runners have surpassed their time? Breaking the 4 minute mile was such a big deal once. I never ran track but I often did 6 minute miles without fully exerting myself while running to school as a teenager. I had a tendency to be late.